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The Return of Christ

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Is that what you call it??
It must depend on where you live, I guess..
The Lesser Peace is yet to arrive, it will arise from the ruins of the wars now raging, which, if I read the Writings correctly, will coincide with an unforeseen calamity.

It appears the time foretold of the destruction of the world, is fast approaching.

Shoghi Effendi gave a picture of what was to come when He summarised Baha'u'llah's warnings to humanity, This is an extract from;

"The Promised Day Is Come"

Adressed to the Friends and fellow-heirs of the Kingdom of Bahá’u’lláh:

"A tempest, unprecedented in its violence, unpredictable in its course, catastrophic in its immediate effects, unimaginably glorious in its ultimate consequences, is at present sweeping the face of the earth. Its driving power is remorselessly gaining in range and momentum. Its cleansing force, however much undetected, is increasing with every passing day. Humanity, gripped in the clutches of its devastating power, is smitten by the evidences of its resistless fury. It can neither perceive its origin, nor probe its significance, nor discern its outcome. Bewildered, agonized and helpless, it watches this great and mighty wind of God invading the remotest and fairest regions of the earth, rocking its foundations, deranging its equilibrium, sundering its nations, disrupting the homes of its peoples, wasting its cities, driving into exile its kings, pulling down its bulwarks, uprooting its institutions, dimming its light, and harrowing up the souls of its inhabitants.

“The time for the destruction of the world and its people,” Bahá’u’lláh’s prophetic pen has proclaimed, “hath arrived.” “The hour is approaching,” He specifically affirms, “when the most great convulsion will have appeared.” “The promised day is come, the day when tormenting trials will have surged above your heads, and beneath your feet, saying: ‘Taste ye what your hands have wrought!’” “Soon shall the blasts of His chastisement beat upon you, and the dust of hell enshroud you.” And again: “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.” “The day is approaching when its [civilization’s] flame will devour the cities, when the Tongue of Grandeur will proclaim: ‘The Kingdom is God’s, the Almighty, the All-Praised!’” “The day will soon come,” He, referring to the foolish ones of the earth, has written, “whereon they will cry out for help and receive no answer.” “The day is approaching,” He moreover has prophesied, “when the wrathful anger of the Almighty will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto Him.”..."

There is a great more detail in the writings, the world of today has been the subject of the warnings given by Baha'u'llah, starting with the Bab from 1844.

All the rulers were warned, all the peoples of the earth have been warned of what the rejection of God produces.

There are many claiming God is on their side, God knows they are not, that they fight for only their own desires.

That is also Biblical.

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, until the coming Glory Time of separation on Earth takes place (Matt. 25:31-34,37,40) Nobody knows who is a sheep or a goat
The figurative 'sheep' will Not have failed
The separation has been taking place since Christ returned, but almost all Christians missed the boat.

There is nothing to wait for, but Christians will continue to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait...
They will wait till hell freezes over for Jesus to return to Earth, a Jesus who said He was No More in the world and the world would see Him No More.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

No more means no further, never again. It does not mean Coming Back.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Where in the Baha'i Writings does it say the Baha'i Faith will do this?
Maybe worded wrong, or did you read that incorrectly, I did not go back and look as yet!

It will not be the Baha'i doing this, I assume it will be a choice of the world government. Also it is foretold that the Bahai's will face persecution from all the orthodoxy of the Religions, as they preach against the faith from their pulpits. This advice found in Shoghi Effendi's writings.

You would know this passage.

"The great Varqa who felt honoured to have met Baha’u’llah on several occasions wrote about once asking Baha’u’llah “how will the Cause of God be universally adopted by mankind?”

Baha’u’llah said that first, the nations of the world would arm themselves with infernal engines of war, and when fully armed would attack each other like bloodthirsty beasts. As a result, there would be enormous bloodshed throughout the world. Then the wise from all nations would gather together to investigate the cause of such bloodshed. They would come to the conclusion that prejudices were the cause, a major form being religious prejudice. They would therefore try to eliminate religion so as to eliminate prejudice. Later they would realize that man cannot live without religion. Then they would study the teachings of all religions to see which of the religions conformed to the prevailing conditions of the time. It is then that the Cause of God would become universal."

The Revelation of Baha’u’llah Vol. 4, p. 56

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Also it is foretold that the Bahai's will face persecution from all the orthodoxy of the Religions, as they preach against the faith from their pulpits.
I only wish that I could live long enough to see this day, because I am ready for the persecution.
Bring it on! There is no honor greater than to defend the Cause of God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Baha’u’llah said that first, the nations of the world would arm themselves with infernal engines of war, and when fully armed would attack each other like bloodthirsty beasts.
First off... when haven't people or empires or nations not armed themselves? But now we are over 150 years past the day when "The Christ" has returned. And still, like one of the gospels says... there will be wars and rumors of wars of wars. But it says that is not yet the end, meaning when the Christ returns.
Then the wise from all nations would gather together to investigate the cause of such bloodshed. They would come to the conclusion that prejudices were the cause, a major form being religious prejudice. They would therefore try to eliminate religion so as to eliminate prejudice.
These guys don't sound all that wise. Greed and lust for power have nothing to do with it? But these guys determine it is religious prejudice that has been the cause of war? So, then all they have to do is get rid of all religions. Brilliant! With no religions, nobody could be prejudiced against another religion.
Later they would realize that man cannot live without religion. Then they would study the teachings of all religions to see which of the religions conformed to the prevailing conditions of the time. It is then that the Cause of God would become universal."
But then these "wise" guys come to realize people need their gods and religions. So again, the come up with the brilliant plan to study all religions and see which one works best and fits into the needs of modern times? Which of course if the Baha'i Faith. And everybody all jumps on board the Baha'i peace train.

I think that other guess is a little more likely... Things get worse and worse. Economic and environmental disasters, plagues and wars, and things get so bad that we are on the edge of extinction. Then the people of the world say, "Hey, what if we give peace and unity a try? You know... like the Baha'i Faith has been telling us for years."

Only trouble is... how are the people of the world going to do this? Will there still be TV, computers, radio, the internet, cars and airplanes and the rest? If the world is so bad off, wouldn't all that stuff be gone? Unfortunately, even more likely, is that whoever has the most powerful and lethal weapons will rule. And what are the chances that they will be nice, peace-loving people?

And, of course, there is that other idea... the one that Evangelical Christians believe. Things get worse and worse. You know, tribulations like the world has never seen. There is a beast and Anti-Christ and nobody can buy or sell without having the mark of the beast. A big army surrounds Israel and just as they are ready to attack... Jesus comes, kills them and all the good people live happily ever after.

And yes, I know that one Baha'is keeps saying that Jesus himself said his work is done and he's never coming back. Trouble with that is... It's from a gospel that she probably doesn't believe is true. And... I think she might be right, that is about it not being true. Who knows who wrote the gospel and were they even an eyewitness to what Jesus said?

But for her to be correct about Jesus saying he's not coming back, that gospel has to be exactly right. It has to be the exact words of Jesus... and then has to be interpreted exactly the way she's interpreting it. Which has a problem... Right after Jesus said he wouldn't come back, he was killed and came back. And then floats off into the clouds and some angels say that this Jesus will return.

Ah, religions. They are all over the place with their ideas about the gods and what's going to happen. Can't live with them... and can't live without them... Or so say some wise men.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And yes, I know that one Baha'is keeps saying that Jesus himself said his work is done and he's never coming back. Trouble with that is... It's from a gospel that she probably doesn't believe is true. And... I think she might be right, that is about it not being true. Who knows who wrote the gospel and were they even an eyewitness to what Jesus said?

But for her to be correct about Jesus saying he's not coming back, that gospel has to be exactly right. It has to be the exact words of Jesus... and then has to be interpreted exactly the way she's interpreting it.
That is a valid point, but if we disregard the gospel of John, who believe in any of the other gospels?
I mean why claim any of those words are the exact words of Jesus?
Which has a problem... Right after Jesus said he wouldn't come back, he was killed and came back. And then floats off into the clouds and some angels say that this Jesus will return.
The resurrection is irrelevant to this discussion because we are discussing Jesus coming back to earth after He had allegedly ascended into heaven.

There are NO words of Jesus that say that He was going to return after He ascended into heaven, not anywhere in the New Testament.
I have been discussing this with Christians for 10 years and they cannot come up with even one verse where Jesus says HE is going to return to earth.
Add that to the 'no more' verses in John and we have a Jesus who never planned to return to Earth.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Right after Jesus said he wouldn't come back, he was killed and came back. And then floats off into the clouds and some angels say that this Jesus will return.
Acts 1:11This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Who knows what was really said. How did the writer of Acts know about this event? Who knows. But that's what was supposedly said by a couple of angels. And we all know, that whenever an angel appears to us, we can be sure they are telling the truth.

But the point is... Why believe whoever wrote the gospel of John on what he claims that Jesus said, and believe what the writer of Acts claims that a couple of angels said? And they said "Jesus", "this same Jesus". So, I don't blame Christians one bit for believing their stories as being true. No matter how silly it all sounds to some of us.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Acts 1:11This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Who knows what was really said. How did the writer of Acts know about this event? Who knows. But that's what was supposedly said by a couple of angels. And we all know, that whenever an angel appears to us, we can be sure they are telling the truth.
Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The disciples (Men of Galilee) were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky, and then they said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. The text does not say what the disciples saw going up to heaven, but presumably it was the spiritual body of Jesus, the body that Jesus had after he died physically and was resurrected (transformed).

1 Corinthians 15: 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

The angels believed that the same Jesus, who had been taken up into heaven, would come back in the same way He was seen going up to heaven. They were telling the truth of what they believed but that is not a reason to believe that the same Jesus will return as He ascended since angels carry no authority.

Moreover, if it was the spiritual body of Jesus that ascended, that body would not come back to earth since spiritual bodies were made for heaven, not for earth.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

So if Jesus returned to earth in a spiritual body nobody could see him, which contradicts all the other verses that say that we will see him.
But the point is... Why believe whoever wrote the gospel of John on what he claims that Jesus said, and believe what the writer of Acts claims that a couple of angels said? And they said "Jesus", "this same Jesus". So, I don't blame Christians one bit for believing their stories as being true. No matter how silly it all sounds to some of us.
I understand your point, but the difference between what was said in John and what was said in Acts is that the writer of the gospel of John was claiming to speak for Jesus whereas the writer of Acts was not claiming to speak for Jesus. He only had a personal opinion.
 

Sumadji

Active Member
Jesus NEVER promised to bring Peace to Earth, only a sword.
The whole passage here:

Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law and a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matt 10:34-39 Read whole chapter

@Trailblazer
What do you think Jesus really means by 'not peace but a sword' taking the rest of the chapter into account, for context?

It's true Jesus did not promise to bring peace on earth, because he knew that would never happen. The earth will always be a fractious and conflicted dimension of nature -- it will always be necessary for the 'spiritual' person to have to choose between 'God or mammon'.

He was realistic and truthful. He did not make empty promises of peace on earth, imo
 
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Sumadji

Active Member
Yeah, and that's what I'd expect from Baha'is... take the virgin birth story as a metaphor and not as something that literally happened.
IMO the Baha'i choice is to go with the Quran, which accepts the virgin birth, but not the resurrection or the trinity, etc? Given a choice between the Gospel or the Quran, the Baha'i as an offshoot of Shia Islam will go with the Quran?

But, because the moral teachings and laws have never worked, I'm wondering if they too were just made up. Would a God have given people rules and laws that he knows most all people won't be able to obey? Or, even worse, not want to obey.
Most of them are tribal mores, for the survival and advancement of the tribe.

It was fine to kill or steal from another tribe -- just not from my own.

Christ extended it beyond the tribe to all beings?
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Bible isn't evidence for god.
I think the Bible can be considered evidence for God, but only in a particular sense.

Baha'i views of the Bible vary widely. My views lie in the middle area, that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts, although more and more I am leaning towards the liberal, scholarly view, that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces.

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

The bible isn't evidence for being the word of god either.
I do not believe that the Bible is the Word of God. The words of its writers, even if divinely inspired, which is a stretch, cannot be considered as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Provide evidence the bible is proof of god.
I do not think that the Bible is proof of God. There is no proof of God.
I only said that the Bible can be considered evidence for God, but only in a particular sense.

Evidence is not the same as proof.

evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Google
evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true:

Note that evidence does only indicates or helps to prove whether a belief is true. It does not prove anything.

By contrast, proof establishes a fact. There is no proof that God exists or that any religion if true. There is only evidence that indicates that.

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: Google
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The whole passage here:

Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law and a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
Matt 10:34-39 Read whole chapter

@Trailblazer
What do you think Jesus really means by 'not peace but a sword' taking the rest of the chapter into account, for context?
I think it means that Jesus came to stir up trouble by bringing a whole new teaching, when He said that saying that nobody should love anyone else more than Him. I do not think that Jesus meant loving His person, but rather He was speaking as God's representative on earth. He meant that we must love God more than anyone else.

I think that Jesus also meant that it was not His mission to bring peace to earth. Jesus had another mission, to bear witness unto the truth about God.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
It's true Jesus did not promise to bring peace on earth, because he knew that would never happen. The earth will always be a fractious and conflicted dimension of nature -- it will always be necessary for the 'spiritual' person to have to choose between 'God or mammon'.

He was realistic and truthful. He did not make empty promises of peace on earth, imo
Jesus did not promise to bring peace on earth because it was not yet time for peace to come to earth 2000 years ago, as peace would have been impossible back then, given world conditions. So yes, Jesus was realistic and truthful. However, Jesus did not say that peace would never come to earth. Moreover, the Old Testament says that the messiah of the latter days will usher in an era of peace.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha'is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace and the Lord of hosts and that world peace will be established during the dispensation of Baha'u'llah, which will last no less than 1000 years (from 1852 AD, which is when Baha'u'llah received His first revelations from God). Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established, but where it says there shall be no end to the peace that indicates that it won't happen all at once but rather it will unfold gradually. That is exactly what is happening right now. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
First off... when haven't people or empires or nations not armed themselves? But now we are over 150 years past the day when "The Christ" has returned. And still, like one of the gospels says... there will be wars and rumors of wars of wars. But it says that is not yet the end, meaning when the Christ returns.
In the end CG, the Baha'i carry a heavy weight upon their shoulders, as they have to live the peace we teach, so the Baha'i community is obviously the foundation of what can be achieved.

"Your duty is of another kind, for you are informed of the mysteries of God. Your eyes are illumined; your ears are quickened with hearing. You must, therefore, look toward each other and then toward mankind with the utmost love and kindness. You have no excuse to bring before God if you fail to live according to His command, for you are informed of that which constitutes the good pleasure of God. You have heard His commandments and precepts. You must, therefore, be kind to all men; you must even treat your enemies as your friends. You must consider your evil-wishers as your well-wishers. Those who are not agreeable toward you must be regarded as those who are congenial and pleasant so that, perchance, this darkness of disagreement and conflict may disappear from amongst men and the light of the divine may shine forth, so that the Orient may be illumined and the Occident filled with fragrance, nay, so that the East and West may embrace each other in love and deal with one another in sympathy and affection.Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 470

All the best CG, like us all, you get to choose your path.

If one becomes a Baha'i, they have no excuse not to change, as they have been asked to do by the Laws and Ordinances of Bahá'u'lláh.

The Baha'is in Iran have been the example of what Abdul'baha has quoted above, they are the light in the current darkness that inflicts humanity, the rest of us can only try to seek that level of commitment.

Example logo
Wednesday, August 28, 2024

Regards Tony
 

Sumadji

Active Member
I think it means that Jesus came to stir up trouble by bringing a whole new teaching, when He said that saying that nobody should love anyone else more than Him. I do not think that Jesus meant loving His person, but rather He was speaking as God's representative on earth. He meant that we must love God more than anyone else.

I think that Jesus also meant that it was not His mission to bring peace to earth. Jesus had another mission, to bear witness unto the truth about God.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Jesus did not promise to bring peace on earth because it was not yet time for peace to come to earth 2000 years ago, as peace would have been impossible back then, given world conditions. So yes, Jesus was realistic and truthful. However, Jesus did not say that peace would never come to earth. Moreover, the Old Testament says that the messiah of the latter days will usher in an era of peace.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha'is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace and the Lord of hosts and that world peace will be established during the dispensation of Baha'u'llah, which will last no less than 1000 years (from 1852 AD, which is when Baha'u'llah received His first revelations from God). Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established, but where it says there shall be no end to the peace that indicates that it won't happen all at once but rather it will unfold gradually. That is exactly what is happening right now. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice.
Fair enough. Thank you for responding.

But then why employ the 'not peace but a sword' passage at all? Didn't Baha'u'llah excommunicate members of his own family?
 
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