CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Since Baha'u'llah came there has already been two World Wars. Does Baha'u'llah really specify a third World War?
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The Return of Christ
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
Baha"ullah told us of the ist and 2nd world war and also told us how the Lesser Peace would unfold. After the 2nd world war Shoghi Effendi warned of another conflict, as the nation's did not learn from the first two wars.
This is a result of the rejection of the Most Great Peace by tge majority of humanity and as a subsequence, we were told we must embrace the Lesser Peace.
Abdul'baha prepared for the First world war and foretold of the time 2 years before, when giving his talks in America.
In 1931 Shoghi Effendi was warning of the 2nd world war, already foretold of by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, trying to spur the Baha'i to spread around the world, to help humanity to find unity.
"...I would again direct your attention to those ominous words of Bahá’u’lláh which I have already quoted: “And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.”
Has not ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá Himself asserted in unequivocal language that “another war, fiercer than the last, will assuredly break out”?...."
After the 2nd world war, Shoghi Effendi talked to the Pilgrims in detail about another conflict, giving some graphic details of the destruction of cities that would inevitably come to pass.
Too many quotes to gather, and the majority will not read them.
Regards Tony
Which 'god' tests us, it's the evil 'god of this world' of badness aka sinner Satan the Devil - Job chapters 1 and 2
Sinner Satan Not only wanted the man Job tested ' touch our flesh...' (loose physical health) and then No one would serve God (Job 2:4-5)
Yes, God does Not wish evil - James 1:13-14,17 - because God temps No one with evil
Yes, it's unfaithful mankind who carries out their own will - James 1:14-15
The 'War to End ALL Wars' (see Psalm 46:9) is the final War of Armageddon
Without the coming final war of Armageddon there would Not be Peace on Earth - Revelation 19:14-15, 17-18
Before this happens the figurative 'sheep and goats ' (Matthew 25:31-34,37) make their own free-willed choice without God interfering
So, No, God does Not interfere with what choice we freely voluntarily make. God forces No one to love or obey Him
Baha'u'llah clarification of this is progressive.
There is only One God, there is no other force but that of Good. Evil is just lack of that good.
"..Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend?..." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149
"....Fear God, and follow not your desires which have altered the face of creation..." Bahá’u’lláh, The Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 74
"...Follow not the promptings of the self, for it summoneth insistently to wickedness and lust..." Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 41
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that. I believe that without the coming of Baha'u'llah there would never be Peace on Earth.
Jesus NEVER promised to bring Peace to Earth, only a sword.
Matthew 10:34-36 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth..." “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:34-36 "Do not think that I have come to bring ...
Jesus NEVER promised to bring Peace to Earth in the future either. THAT is simply NOT in the New Testament.
That is how we know that Jesus is NOT the Person who was slated by God to bring Peace to Earth.
Christianity divides mankind into the Them and Us. That will NEVER bring Peace to mankind.
Baha'u'llah came to proclaim that we are all One People and unite mankind, which is the ONLY way there will ever be Peace on Earth.
“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.
Through the power of the words He hath uttered the whole of the human race can be illumined with the light of unity, and the remembrance of His Name is able to set on fire the hearts of all men, and burn away the veils that intervene between them and 287 His glory. One righteous act is endowed with a potency that can so elevate the dust as to cause it to pass beyond the heaven of heavens. It can tear every bond asunder, and hath the power to restore the force that hath spent itself and vanished….”
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..only because that is what is decreed i.e. that is the future, of our own making
It is/will cause a lot of suffering, in this life and the next.
..but better to suffer now than in the next life .. G-d is the Fairest of All Judges.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Yes, that is the Baha'i belief. But Abdul Baha' and Shoghi Effendi were not the "manifestation". Do Baha'i believe both of them have prophetic powers?
And the usual questions based on the Bible and NT... Where does it have the Christ or the Messiah coming being rejected, being exiled and imprisoned, then dying, and then two world wars and several other wars take place, and a third world war predicted before peace gets established... but not a perfect, or "most great" peace, but a "lesser" peace.
The NT has wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end... It has trials and tribulations which or worse than ever been seen along with the kings of the Earth gathering in a valley to attack Israel and then in Revelation, it has the guy on a white horse come and conquer all the evil kings.
Rev 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”
2 The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.
4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood...
8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire...
10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness...
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.
Rev. 17:1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters. 2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”
3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns...
6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7 Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. 11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Rev. 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself...
“He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Lots of stuff going on there. Baha'is claim that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies, but I've never heard an "official" Baha'i statement as to how all these things got fulfilled... just a few Baha'is making guesses. But you know what I have heard a lot is that the "Three Woes" are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. But that happened way back in chapter 8.Rev. 8:13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”
But anyway, when the King of Kings comes riding in, and he conquers all the evil people. The kings of the Earth don't reject him and throw him in jail.
Then after you've explained all this, then tell me how Kalki, the Maitreya and other "Promised Ones", get rejected, thrown in jail and die before bringing peace to the world. Or... it's all just religious talk and none of it is literal or real. But Baha'is are the ones that have made the claim that their prophet, Baha'u'llah, has fulfilled all the prophecies from all the major religions about the coming of the "Promised One". Can you some how?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no "official" Baha'i statement as to how all these things got fulfilled, but Baha'is have written books on the subject.
Imo, it would be a better use of your time to read these books and see exactly how the prophecies were fulfilled, instead of asking Baha'is on this forum the same questions over and over again.
1844: Convergence in Prophecy for Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and the Baha'i Faith
The Coming of the Glory: How the Hebrew Scriptures Reveal the Plan of God
Thief in the Night by William Sears
To me Armageddon (see Psalm 46:9) is of God's making
Our suffering is both from our own making (aka disobeying God) and from sinner Satan - Job 2:4-5; James 1:13-15
Like Job suffered in his then life time, but in the next (Resurrection Day) Job will Not suffer ever again
Resurrection Day is: a thousand-year long day or mellinnial period of time - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26
Yes, the coming of the Glory (Matthew 25:31)
Instead of Plan I find it is: God's Purpose
Plans can change: wedding plans cancelled, or vacation plans cancelled
Purpose has a goal that even a detour does Not change the outcome
God's purpose is for all of Earth to be a beautiful paradisical Garden like Eden was a sample
God's purpose has Not changed
If you were out working in your beautiful garden and someone came along an interrupted you, would you say I am never going back to my garden because I was interrupted, or rather once the interruption was over you'd go back to your garden __________
Sinner Satan threw a monkey wrench into God's garden purpose for Earth and once Jesus destroys Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B - Earth will become a beautiful paradisical garden as Eden was the sample to follow and expand earth wide -> Isaiah chapter 35; Micah 4:3-4
Please compare Matthew with corresponding Luke 12:51-53 because the division is because as with Jesus: people rejected Jesus
People would oppose or reject someone becoming or wanting to become a Christian follower of Jesus
So, yes, Christianity divides mankind into them and us ( sheep and goats - Matthew 25:37,40)
That does Not mean Jesus will Not bring Peace on Earth
The ' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' ( Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15 ) will rid the Earth of the wicked ones
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
..and that's because you spew verses without knowledge, thinking that what you quote
is in agreement with "your lot's" creed.
G-d knows best who is responsible for death and destruction.
Every soul will bear the responsibility of their sin on the day of reckoning.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
No matter what the Baha'is claim is going to happen, what you're saying is what the NT says.
Again, other than most Christians, who wants to believe that? But, since the Baha'i Faith is still such a small movement, who really wants to believe what they say will happen? They still believe a devastating war will happen. And then out of the only people left, they will all turn to the Baha'i Faith?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
If Baha'is don't know that's problematic. Baha'is are just going with what they've been told. What happened to "independent" investigation of truth? Some prophecies sound pretty good. Others don't. And lots of them are ignored. But there are some "official" statements. Like the Umayyads are the Beast power. That 666 minus four years is a prophecy when they came to power. That they will have power for 1260 lunar years. That the "two witnesses" are Muhammad and Ali, the the "three woes" are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
I've looked at these, and I don't agree with what Abdul Baha' is claiming. So, what am I supposed to do? Say, "Oh well, they're close enough"? "They sound reasonable"? "Well, Abdul Baha is the son of Baha'u'llah, so he must know what he's talking about"?
I'm asking you Baha'is here on the forum, because if any Baha'is here make the claim, like the one about Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies, that Baha'i should know how it was fulfilled.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
That is what is prophesied. Not that the "Christ" will come as an Islamic nobleman in Persia, declare himself the "promised one", get jailed and exiled to Palestine, and die there.
But which is the odd-ball religion here? The Baha'i Faith says it accepts all people from all religions. That all the major religions were true. That we can all build a peaceful world by applying the teachings of Baha'u'llah.
Then there's Christianity... Only those that believe correctly will be saved. And Christians disagree on what is the correct way to believe in Jesus. And whatever it maybe, all the rest of the people are wrong and rejected by God.
The Baha'is have a much user-friendly religion, and a kinder, more gentler God. But are they right? But then, how "friendly" is their version of God when he let's people suffer through wars, disease, and environmental disasters just to prove the point... That everybody must listen to him and follow his laws?
And, like all the other religions with a bunch of laws, supposedly from God, will it work? Has a religion filled with a bunch of laws ever worked?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Interesting... set national boarders? What will people decide on what will be the borders of Russia? Even with the United States... We took over the land of the Native people. We bought, invaded, annexed or whatever it took to get the lands that make up the various states.
But, of course, people will be much more loving and kind then and not greedy and territorial... right.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not believe that was ever God's Purpose. God's purpose never had anything to do with anything 'physical' that exists on Earth.
God's Purpose has always been about the spiritual transformation of humanity which will result in the Unity of Mankind.
God's Purpose has Not changed.
I believe that God's Purpose has always been as follows and it is in the process of being fulfilled.
God’s Purpose
“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.
“The winds of despair,” writes Bahá’u’lláh, as He surveys the immediate destinies of mankind, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.” “Such shall be its plight,” He, in another connection, has declared, “that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly.” “These fruitless strifes,” He, on the other hand, contemplating the future of mankind, has emphatically prophesied, in the course of His memorable interview with the Persian orientalist, Edward G. Browne, “these ruinous wars shall pass away, and the ‘Most Great Peace’ shall come…. These strifes and this bloodshed and discord must cease, and all men be as one kindred and one family.” “Soon,” He predicts, “will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead.” “After a time,” He also has written, “all the governments on earth will change. Oppression will envelop the world. And following a universal convulsion, the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm.” “The whole earth,” He, moreover, has stated, “is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits, when from it will have sprung forth the loftiest trees, the most enchanting blossoms, the most heavenly blessings.” “All nations and kindreds,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá likewise has written, “…will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”
What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”
Jimmy
Veteran Member
What does this spiritual transformation of humanity and unity of mankind look like? This sounds wishy washy to me.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Christianity divides mankind into the Them and Us. That will NEVER bring Peace to mankind
Christianity always will divide humanity rather than unite humanity because there can never be unity with the belief that Jesus is the Only Way.
Jesus NEVER promised to bring Peace to Earth, only a sword. THAT is simply NOT in the New Testament.
Matthew 10:34-36 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth..." “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15 are not about Jesus. EVERYTHING in the Bible is not about Jesus.
I believe those prophecies refer to Baha'u'llah, who came to unite mankind and bring peace to Earth.
Both of those prophecies were fulfilled by Him, since He did exactly what they say.