The Revealed Revelations of God

[biomystic]

Response: We know islam is a religion of peace because every teaching in islam is to create peace.

Well, We non-Muslims do not know Islam is a religion of peace. There's no proof of it in real life as opposed to words in a book. No proof, Fatihah, nothing but the opposite as the Muslim body count continues to rise every day. Only Muslims blind to morality and common sense could still believe Islam is a religion of peace.

As for proof of Moses' existance, the test presented in post 65 proves that the qur'an is in fact the true word of Allah. That being the case, since the qur'an is proven to be true, then it's mentioning that Moses existed is true as well.

Here is that post 65 of yours that "proves" the Quran is the true word of Allah. It is so absurd a defense that I will just let others read it and see for themselves there's no proof of anything but a blind faith believer's belief that the Quran is inerrant, something fundamentalist Christians also say of the Bible, with the same blind faith that never looks beyond the words, never seeks historical confirmation to see if the words of the Book idol are religious propaganda or not. The blind leading the blind only makes them fall into the ditch of ignorance that much faster. That's why God gave us science to do away with religious mythologies screwing up people's heads with false ideas about human society and the world they live in.

"Response: The taurat (the revelation revealed to Moses) and the injil (the revelation revealed to Jesus) and the qur'an are revelations from Allah(God). We know so from the qur'an, which itself is a living miracle. What makes it miraculous is because it is the only revelation which can be proven to be the authentic and truthful word of Allah(swt). What is that proof?

In the qur'an we read:
"Will they not then, meditate upon the Qur'an. Had it been from any one other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". (4:82).

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers, beside Allah, if you are truthful". (2:23).

Here we have two tests that proves that the qur'an is from Allah. For not only is it free of discrepancy, but it is impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an because every chapter is miraculous."

Poor Fatihah, Muslims who believe like you do are doomed to face your critics who, just like critics of those who believe the Bible has no contradictions and are proven wrong time and again, your same belief in the inerrancy of the Quran cannot be defended in fact: Here's a link to some of the contradictions of your Quran.


By the way, Muhammad has never used the exodus story as a reference. However, if you have proof otherwise, then kindly present it forward.

How well do you know the Quran? Not all that well judging by the fact you seemed to have not read chapter 20 at all, that chapter containing a retelling of the Hebrew's story of Moses and the Exodus. Chapter 20. Read it and then come back and tell us Muhammad never used the Exodus story as a reference.

 

[Fatihah]

How well do you know the Quran? Not all that well judging by the fact you seemed to have not read chapter 20 at all, that chapter containing a retelling of the Hebrew's story of Moses and the Exodus. Chapter 20. Read it and then come back and tell us Muhammad never used the Exodus story as a reference.

Response: And just like all non-muslims who wish to criticize islam, you produce a long lengthy statement.....with absolutely no proof. Have you proven that the story of exodus is the same as the qur'an? No. Have you proven that the qur'an is not from Allah? No. Have you shown any proof that islam is not a religion of peace? No. All we see is criticism which in no such way hurts islam because at the end of the day that's all you have, criticism, not proof. As for your statement that the proof presented in post 65 is not proof to non-muslims, we find in post 155 proof to the contrary because as demonstrated, the proof is clear. You're just in denial.

 

[Sunstone]

What are the criteria for establishing that a revelation is truly from God?

Someone, somewhere has to be able to make money from it.

 

[biomystic]

Someone, somewhere has to be able to make money from it.

I'm 65 and so far haven't made a dime off of my revelations from God. Dang! Note to self: fire my p.r. person...oops, that's me..

 

[biomystic]

Response: And just like all non-muslims who wish to criticize islam, you produce a long lengthy statement.....with absolutely no proof. Have you proven that the story of exodus is the same as the qur'an? No. Have you proven that the qur'an is not from Allah? No. Have you shown any proof that islam is not a religion of peace? No. All we see is criticism which in no such way hurts islam because at the end of the day that's all you have, criticism, not proof. As for your statement that the proof presented in post 65 is not proof to non-muslims, we find in post 155 proof to the contrary because as demonstrated, the proof is clear. You're just in denial.

Fatihah, I can see that you are locked into your fundamentalist mindset like our fundamentalist Christians, both of you believing your book idol is inerrant. It's an irrational mindset and as such I can't continue to debate with you. Any reasonably intelligent person who reads chapter 20 in the Quran and compares it to the Exodus chapter in the Old Testament will refute your very false claim that Muhammad's version isn't based on the Hebrew story of Moses and the Exodus. Your now standard denial of what's in Islamic doctrine that non-Muslims can read for themselves along with your denial of Muslim violence seen daily in the news by non-Muslims only proves that you are incapable of seeing anything that contradicts the Muslim idols, Muhammad and his book. Turn on your tv and watch the news before telling more fibs about Muhammad's Islam being a religion of peace.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah, I can see that you are locked into your fundamentalist mindset like our fundamentalist Christians, both of you believing your book idol is inerrant. It's an irrational mindset and as such I can't continue to debate with you. Any reasonably intelligent person who reads chapter 20 in the Quran and compares it to the Exodus chapter in the Old Testament will refute your very false claim that Muhammad's version isn't based on the Hebrew story of Moses and the Exodus. Your now standard denial of what's in Islamic doctrine that non-Muslims can read for themselves along with your denial of Muslim violence seen daily in the news by non-Muslims only proves that you are incapable of seeing anything that contradicts the Muslim idols, Muhammad and his book. Turn on your tv and watch the news before telling more fibs about Muhammad's Islam being a religion of peace.

Response: Al hamdu lilah. Here we have another non-muslim critic of islam, making claims concerning islam, yet when asked for proof.....we get nothing. So as muslims, we say thank you for demonstrating once again that islam is a peaceful religion, who's teaching is the revelation sent to the prophet Muhammad.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: Al hamdu lilah. Here we have another non-muslim critic of islam, making claims concerning islam, yet when asked for proof.....we get nothing. So as muslims, we say thank you for demonstrating once again that islam is a peaceful religion, who's teaching is the revelation sent to the prophet Muhammad.

That begs the question, Fatty, is there any criticism of Islam than has any merit in your view?

 

[Fatihah]

That begs the question, Fatty, is there any criticism of Islam than has any merit in your view?

Response: Yes. Those which are misunderstood, not those that are claimed to be fact without proof.

 

[biomystic]

Fatihah in court defending Islam against critics:

Critic to the presiding judge and jury:

Fatihah claims that Muhammad did not use the Hebrew story of Moses and the Exodus as a reference when he wrote the Quran.

We have here exhibit one, a recorded transcription of the Quran's chapter 20 and a transcription of the Book of Exodus in the Old Testament or Torah. We have asked two university professors of comparative religion picked at random from a list of such teachers to read both accounts and make their determinations if they think one influenced the other directly. Here is their conclusion reached independently of each and us. Prof. X: "It is obvious that Muhammad was familiar with the Hebrew story of Moses and the Exodus. He synopsizes the Hebrew story in chapter 20 of the Quran. He uses the same sequence of events in the Hebrew story, the same major characters in the their same roles." Prof. Y: "Muhammad's version of the Hebrew story of Moses and the Exodus follows the Hebrew story in all its primary details. Muhammad's version is shorter but it most definitely is the same basic story as that found in the Hebrew Torah."

Fatihah: rises to his feet: "Objection. You have shown no proof. The Quran remains a miraculous document unparalleled in any religion."

Judge to Fatihah: "Overruled. Critic has provided the court with transcripts of the two stories as well as expert witness testimony. You have provided nothing to show the court that they haven't provided proof of their position."

Fatihah: "But your honor, they have no proof. Where is their proof?"

Judge to Fatihah: "Fatihah, it appears to the court that you are essentially deaf and blind when it comes to seeing why critic and many others I might add do not hold your opinion about the inerrancy of the Quran. Your defense of your argument has to have some substance to it but all you have provided the court is this rather childish insistence that critic has not provided proof when he obviously has. We could probably drag two people off the street and have them read both versions of the Moses and Exodus story and say the same thing as the expert witnesses. I've read both versions and it's obvious to me Muhammad's, coming much later in time, is based directly on the Hebrew original story.

Fatihah: "You are obviously a non-Muslim biased against Muslims. There is no proof that the wondrous Quran is without equal and remains a miracle from Allah because every detail is perfect, without contradiction."

Judge to Fatihah: "I might remind you in order to get you to start thinking straight, that Muhammad was one person writing one book while the Bible, Torah, Tanahk, New Testament, are a composite of many texts written by many authors. The statistical probability of errors multiplies geometrically with the number of authors and texts. Please keep this in mind when you and fellow Muslims go around thinking Muhammad was something ever so special for doing a good job of proof-reading his own writings. You are forgetting how errors naturally increase with multiple authors and texts."

Fatihah: "But judge critic never provided proof."

Judge: "You lost, Fatihah: case dismissed."

Fatihah: "They proved nothing. The Quran is without error and miraculous. Allahu Akbar!"

 

[YmirGF]

Response: Yes. Those which are misunderstood, not those that are claimed to be fact without proof.

Are you suggesting that the basis for any criticisms of Islam are based solely on misunderstanding Islam? That would suggest that there is nothing inherently wrong "under to hood", so to speak, with Islam and that the error is in the misunderstanding. Would this be correct?

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: Not at all. It is my intent to show that the spread of islam is miraculous, which proves that Muhammad was indeed a true prophet.

"the spread of islam is miraculous"

Would this be another way of saying that the sheer numbers involved in the spread of Islam is miraculous?

 

[McBell]

Are you suggesting that the basis for any criticisms of Islam are based solely on misunderstanding Islam? That would suggest that there is nothing inherently wrong "under to hood", so to speak, with Islam and that the error is in the misunderstanding. Would this be correct?

not touching this even with a ten foot pole... :no:

 

[Fatihah]

"the spread of islam is miraculous"

Would this be another way of saying that the sheer numbers involved in the spread of Islam is miraculous?

Response: Not at all. The miracle is explained in post 65.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah in court defending Islam against critics:

Critic to the presiding judge and jury:

Fatihah claims that Muhammad did not use the Hebrew story of Moses and the Exodus as a reference when he wrote the Quran.

We have here exhibit one, a recorded transcription of the Quran's chapter 20 and a transcription of the Book of Exodus in the Old Testament or Torah. We have asked two university professors of comparative religion picked at random from a list of such teachers to read both accounts and make their determinations if they think one influenced the other directly. Here is their conclusion reached independently of each and us. Prof. X: "It is obvious that Muhammad was familiar with the Hebrew story of Moses and the Exodus. He synopsizes the Hebrew story in chapter 20 of the Quran. He uses the same sequence of events in the Hebrew story, the same major characters in the their same roles." Prof. Y: "Muhammad's version of the Hebrew story of Moses and the Exodus follows the Hebrew story in all its primary details. Muhammad's version is shorter but it most definitely is the same basic story as that found in the Hebrew Torah."

Fatihah: rises to his feet: "Objection. You have shown no proof. The Quran remains a miraculous document unparalleled in any religion."

Judge to Fatihah: "Overruled. Critic has provided the court with transcripts of the two stories as well as expert witness testimony. You have provided nothing to show the court that they haven't provided proof of their position."

Fatihah: "But your honor, they have no proof. Where is their proof?"

Judge to Fatihah: "Fatihah, it appears to the court that you are essentially deaf and blind when it comes to seeing why critic and many others I might add do not hold your opinion about the inerrancy of the Quran. Your defense of your argument has to have some substance to it but all you have provided the court is this rather childish insistence that critic has not provided proof when he obviously has. We could probably drag two people off the street and have them read both versions of the Moses and Exodus story and say the same thing as the expert witnesses. I've read both versions and it's obvious to me Muhammad's, coming much later in time, is based directly on the Hebrew original story.

Fatihah: "You are obviously a non-Muslim biased against Muslims. There is no proof that the wondrous Quran is without equal and remains a miracle from Allah because every detail is perfect, without contradiction."

Judge to Fatihah: "I might remind you in order to get you to start thinking straight, that Muhammad was one person writing one book while the Bible, Torah, Tanahk, New Testament, are a composite of many texts written by many authors. The statistical probability of errors multiplies geometrically with the number of authors and texts. Please keep this in mind when you and fellow Muslims go around thinking Muhammad was something ever so special for doing a good job of proof-reading his own writings. You are forgetting how errors naturally increase with multiple authors and texts."

Fatihah: "But judge critic never provided proof."

Judge: "You lost, Fatihah: case dismissed."

Fatihah: "They proved nothing. The Quran is without error and miraculous. Allahu Akbar!"

Response:

Biomystic: Produces a lengthy post which is hypothetical.

Fatihah: Refers biomystic back to reality by referring him to post 166.

Conclusion: Biomystic's argument is reduced to hypotheticals. Fatihah's argument is actual reality.

 

[Fatihah]

Are you suggesting that the basis for any criticisms of Islam are based solely on misunderstanding Islam? That would suggest that there is nothing inherently wrong "under to hood", so to speak, with Islam and that the error is in the misunderstanding. Would this be correct?

Response: Not at all. I am saying that criticism of islam due to a misunderstanding of islam is the only criticism with merit.

 

[biomystic]

Response:

Biomystic: Produces a lengthy post which is hypothetical.

Fatihah: Refers biomystic back to reality by referring him to post 166.

Conclusion: Biomystic has a hypothetical. Fatihah has reality.

Biomystic has the daily news reports of Muslims acting upon their religious beliefs for his reality check. Fatihah has a book to read and idolize. Meanwhile, Muslims prove to the world everyday that Islam is far from being a religion of peace. Fatihah, the reason God doesn't want idols worshiped is that they distract believers from reality. You and Muslims like you need to stop word idolatry. Idols can come in many shapes including little black ink marks set in rows on papyrus, parchment, and paper.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: Not at all. It is my intent to show that the spread of islam is miraculous, which proves that Muhammad was indeed a true prophet.

"the spread of islam is miraculous"

Would this be another way of saying that the sheer numbers involved in the spread of Islam is miraculous?

Response: Not at all. The miracle is explained in post 65.

POST 65

Here we have two tests that proves that the qur'an is from Allah. For not only is it free of discrepancy, but it is impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an because every chapter is miraculous. That miracle being, that it is absolutely impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. Because Muhammad did in fact use the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

So we are still on Argumentum ad Populum (Appeal to Numbers)
An appeal to numbers is an informal logical fallacy that occurs when someone such as yourself tries to argue that because something is or has been popular or widely believed/done, then that is a good reason for others to do it or continue to believe it. But the number of people who believe in a thing, or who have done a thing, is in no way a basis for thinking that a belief is true or valid.

 

[Fatihah]

Biomystic has the daily news reports of Muslims acting upon their religious beliefs for his reality check. Fatihah has a book to read and idolize. Meanwhile, Muslims prove to the world everyday that Islam is far from being a religion of peace. Fatihah, the reason God doesn't want idols worshiped is that they distract believers from reality. You and Muslims like you need to stop word idolatry. Idols can come in many shapes including little black ink marks set in rows on papyrus, parchment, and paper.

Response: biomystic demomstrates his hypocrisy once again. According to your logic, even your religion isn't peaceful, for any one can turn on the news and read the paper and find killing, and violence by christians and other non-muslims. Once again, you've only shown hypocrisy, not evidence. Do keep it up though. It only shows how desperate you'll go to make a point which only favors islam, not the other way around.

God doesn't like those who put their will over him. Yet with every post you make, you do just that by rejecting the proof that the qur'an is from Allah, while in the meantime, you have no proof that your religion is from God.

 

[Fatihah]

POST 65


So we are still on Argumentum ad Populum (Appeal to Numbers)
An appeal to numbers is an informal logical fallacy that occurs when someone such as yourself tries to argue that because something is or has been popular or widely believed/done, then that is a good reason for others to do it or continue to believe it. But the number of people who believe in a thing, or who have done a thing, is in no way a basis for thinking that a belief is true or valid.

Response: And at no time have I said "because something is or has been popular or widely believed/done, then that is a good reason for others to do it or continue to believe it". Nor can you quote otherwise. Thus your point is irrelevant.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: And at no time have I said "because something is or has been popular or widely believed/done, then that is a good reason for others to do it or continue to believe it". Nor can you quote otherwise. Thus your point is irrelevant.

Really?

Response: Not at all. It is my intent to show that the spread of islam is miraculous, which proves that Muhammad was indeed a true prophet.

Here we have two tests that proves that the qur'an is from Allah. For not only is it free of discrepancy, but it is impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an because every chapter is miraculous. That miracle being, that it is absolutely impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. Because Muhammad did in fact use the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands.

the spread of islam is miraculous; it is absolutely impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.;Muhammad did in fact use the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation; Muhammad conquered Arabia; why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?; it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed.

[FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Argumentum ad Populum.....[/FONT]