The Revealed Revelations of God

[Fatihah]

Really?





the spread of islam is miraculous; it is absolutely impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.;Muhammad did in fact use the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation; Muhammad conquered Arabia; why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?; it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed.

[FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Argumentum ad Populum.....[/FONT]

Response: Argument proves the qur'an is from Allah. Your inability to prove otherwise favors that fact.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: Argument proves the qur'an is from Allah. Your inability to prove otherwise favors that fact.

You mean your Argumentum ad Populum? As has been shown, the Appeal to Numbers is a logical fallacy, therefore rendering that argument moot.

Do you have any real evidence that the Quran is in fact the true revelation of a god?

 

[Fatihah]

You mean your Argumentum ad Populum? As has been shown, the Appeal to Numbers is a logical fallacy, therefore rendering that argument moot.

Do you have any real evidence that the Quran is in fact the true revelation of a god?

Response: Post 126 proves to the contrary. Your attempt to play on words is sad unfortunately. Why start a thread asking for proof only to deny the proof when it's presented? However, please continue to play with the words in the challenge presented in post 65. It only helps me in my efforts.

 

[Luminous]

Response: Argument proves the qur'an is from Allah. Your inability to prove otherwise favors that fact.

These words prove that Agnosticism is the Divine Revelation of Truth. Your inabiblity to prove otherwise favors that fact.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: Post 126 proves to the contrary.

POST 126

Response: I ask you in post 123 to quote me word for word saying that "the qur'an must be true based on the sheer number of followers needed to conquer a nation", if you are truthful. What do you do? You quote the following in post 125:

"that it is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation".

I'm asking the question, is this:

"the qur'an must be true based on the sheer number of followers needed to conquer a nation".

The same, word for word as this:

"that it is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation".

No. It is not. The first example uses the word "sheer". Does the second example use the same word? No. So what makes you think you've quoted word for word?

Then in your alleged quote of me, you quote my words, but drop a few words in the quote. I said that the qur'an is true because no one can

"create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation."

Now here is your quote:

"the qur'an must be true based on the sheer number of followers needed to conquer a nation".

I used the words, "create your own religion." Does your alleged quote have those words above? No. How about "inspire"? No.

Yet your alleged quote of me is missing those words. Had you quoted me correctly, you would have mentioned those words. But instead, you drop them. Why? The reason is obvious.

So we have a problem. Either you have difficulty understanding simple english, or this is a desperate attempt to play with words, in an effort to hide the fact that you can not produce any proof that the challenge of the qur'an does not prove that the qur'an is the word of Allah. Either or, we can use your own inability to prove the challenge invalid as a clear proof of your denial to the clear proof presented that the qur'an is in fact the word of Allah. Otherwise, you would have had know reason to play with words.

Your attempt to play on words is sad unfortunately. Why start a thread asking for proof only to deny the proof when it's presented? However, please continue to play with the words in the challenge presented in post 65. It only helps me in my efforts.

OK, so you deny that the following....
"the spread of islam is miraculous; it is absolutely impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.;Muhammad did in fact use the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation; Muhammad conquered Arabia; why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?; it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed."

...is in fact an appeal to numbers?
And you base this denial on word play?
Explain how it is not an appeal to numbers when you make claims of "inspire enough followers to conquer a nation".

 

[Fatihah]

POST 126



OK, so you deny that the following....
"the spread of islam is miraculous; it is absolutely impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.;Muhammad did in fact use the qur'an to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation; Muhammad conquered Arabia; why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?;it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed."

...is in fact an appeal to numbers?
And you base this denial on word play?
Explain how it is not an appeal to numbers when you make claims of "inspire enough followers to conquer a nation".

Response: The proof is written in english. Simple basic english at that. You read the simple english yet you can't understand. So in order for me to explain, you would first have to point out which english words you don't understand.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: The proof is written in english. Simple basic english at that. You read the simple english yet you can't understand. So in order for me to explain, you would first have to point out which english words you don't understand.

OK, you cannot meet the challenge of proof. Understandable.
Now, do you have any evidence that does not rely on logical falicies to prove that the Quran is in fact the actual revealed revelation of a god?

 

[Fatihah]

OK, you cannot meet the challenge of proof. Understandable.
Now, do you have any evidence that does not rely on logical falicies to prove that the Quran is in fact the actual revealed revelation of a god?

Response: Yes. Refer to post 65.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: Yes. Refer to post 65.

POST 65

OK, lets forget for the moment that most of Post 65 is simply [FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Argumentum ad Populum[/FONT] and look at the rest of the post...

Response: The taurat (the revelation revealed to Moses) and the injil (the revelation revealed to Jesus) and the qur'an are revelations from Allah(God).

The taurat (or Torah), is known by biblical scholars to have been written by at least four different sources, the Jahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist, and the Priestly sources. There is no evidence that the Torah was actually written by Moses. In fact there is overwhelming evidence that is was not 'revealed' to Moses at all, but was compiled between 539 to 334 BCE.
The injil is mentioned only in the Quran, and there is no record of its actual contents.

We know so from the qur'an, which itself is a living miracle. What makes it miraculous is because it is the only revelation which can be proven to be the authentic and truthful word of Allah(swt). What is that proof?

Yes, what is that proof?

In the qur'an we read:
"Will they not then, meditate upon the Qur'an. Had it been from any one other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". (4:82).

"And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers, beside Allah, if you are truthful". (2:23).

Here we have two tests that proves that the qur'an is from Allah. For not only is it free of discrepancy, but it is impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an because every chapter is miraculous.

Discrepancies?

Strong Drink?
16:67 And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.
2:219 Strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin.
Number of Angels that visited Mary?
19: 16-19 And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
3: 42 And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.
3: 45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

Is Allah capable of all things?
35:1 Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
6:100-101 Yet they ... impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. ... The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child?

What was man created from?
Water And He it is Who hath created man from water... 25:54 Allah hath created every animal of water. 24:45
A Clot In the name of thy Lord Who createth ... man from a clot. 96:1-2
Clay or Mud He it is Who hath created you from clay. 6:2 We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered.... 15:26 He began the creation of man from clay. 32:7 When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire. 38:71 He created man of clay like the potter's. 55:14
Dust He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. 3:59 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely! 30:20 Allah created you from dust.... 35:11
A drop of fluid He hath created man from a drop of fluid. 16:4
Nothing Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught? 19:67

Does everything obey Allah?

30:26 Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient unto Him.
2:34 We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

 

[Fatihah]

POST 65

OK, lets forget for the moment that most of Post 65 is simply [FONT=verdana, geneva, helvetica]Argumentum ad Populum[/FONT] and look at the rest of the post...


The taurat (or Torah), is known by biblical scholars to have been written by at least four different sources, the Jahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist, and the Priestly sources. There is no evidence that the Torah was actually written by Moses. In fact there is overwhelming evidence that is was not 'revealed' to Moses at all, but was compiled between 539 to 334 BCE.
The injil is mentioned only in the Quran, and there is no record of its actual contents.

Yes, what is that proof?


Discrepancies?

Strong Drink?
16:67 And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.
2:219 Strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin.
Number of Angels that visited Mary?
19: 16-19 And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
3: 42 And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.
3: 45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

Is Allah capable of all things?
35:1 Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.
6:100-101 Yet they ... impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. ... The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child?

What was man created from?
Water And He it is Who hath created man from water... 25:54 Allah hath created every animal of water. 24:45
A Clot In the name of thy Lord Who createth ... man from a clot. 96:1-2
Clay or Mud He it is Who hath created you from clay. 6:2 We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered.... 15:26 He began the creation of man from clay. 32:7 When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire. 38:71 He created man of clay like the potter's. 55:14
Dust He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is. 3:59 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely! 30:20 Allah created you from dust.... 35:11
A drop of fluid He hath created man from a drop of fluid. 16:4
Nothing Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught? 19:67

Does everything obey Allah?

30:26 Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient unto Him.
2:34 We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.

Response

Where is the discrepancy? You've quoted verses from the qur'an, yet you are not explaining why the verses are discrepancy.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response

Where is the discrepancy? You've quoted verses from the qur'an, yet you are not explaining why the verses are discrepancy.

How many angels visited Mary?
One, or many?
Is Allah capable of anything?
Yes or no?
What substance did Allah create man from?
?
Does everything obey the will of Allah?
Yes or no?
Who sends disbelievers astray?
Allah or Iblis?
How long is Allah's day?
1,000 years or 50,000 years?
Will ALL Christians go to Hell?
Yes or no?
Which came first?
Heaven or Earth?

 

[YmirGF]

Response: Not at all. I am saying that criticism of islam due to a misunderstanding of islam is the only criticism with merit.

So, in other words, if someone truly understood Islam they would find no area to criticize?

 

[Fatihah]

How many angels visited Mary?
One, or many?
Is Allah capable of anything?
Yes or no?
What substance did Allah create man from?
?
Does everything obey the will of Allah?
Yes or no?
Who sends disbelievers astray?
Allah or Iblis?
How long is Allah's day?
1,000 years or 50,000 years?
Will ALL Christians go to Hell?
Yes or no?
Which came first?
Heaven or Earth?

Response: That doesn't answer the question. You are not stating where the discrepancy lies.

 

[Fatihah]

So, in other words, if someone truly understood Islam they would find no area to criticize?

Response: Yes.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: That doesn't answer the question. You are not stating where the discrepancy lies.

Answer the questions and the discrepancies will reveal themselves..

How many angels visited Mary?
One, or many?
Is Allah capable of anything?
Yes or no?
What substance did Allah create man from?
?
Does everything obey the will of Allah?
Yes or no?
Who sends disbelievers astray?
Allah or Iblis?
How long is Allah's day?
1,000 years or 50,000 years?
Will ALL Christians go to Hell?
Yes or no?
Which came first?
Heaven or Earth?

 

[YmirGF]

is in fact an appeal to numbers?
And you base this denial on word play?
Explain how it is not an appeal to numbers when you make claims of "inspire enough followers to conquer a nation".

Response: The proof is written in english. Simple basic english at that. You read the simple english yet you can't understand. So in order for me to explain, you would first have to point out which english words you don't understand.

Just a head's up, Tumbleweed41, when Fatihah is offering English lessons, any so-called "discussion" is effectively over. That is, of course, if there was, in fact, a genuine discussion prior to that point.

My advice, make sure your seat-belt is fastened tightly because the winds from the Vortex will be whipping up any moment.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Response: Yes.

Circular argument, assuming precisely that which you seek to prove.

 

[YmirGF]

Response: Yes.

*giggle*

I see. Well, that IS most instructive. Thank you.

 

[Fatihah]

Answer the questions and the discrepancies will reveal themselves..

How many angels visited Mary?
One, or many?
Is Allah capable of anything?
Yes or no?
What substance did Allah create man from?
?
Does everything obey the will of Allah?
Yes or no?
Who sends disbelievers astray?
Allah or Iblis?
How long is Allah's day?
1,000 years or 50,000 years?
Will ALL Christians go to Hell?
Yes or no?
Which came first?
Heaven or Earth?

Response: You can't reveal what doesn't exist. Secondly, your response means that you already have answers to your own questions. Thus me answering them is pointless.

 

[allright]

Islam claims God has no son because God needs no son.
It follows therefore since God allows to exist only things he needs and he doesnt need anything nothing exists.