the right religion

[1robin]

interesting. the truth isn't concerned with how it come across...
seems that is the purpose of disclaimers, which is what you are so desperately trying to conjure up...to cushion the ugly truth of the matter.

Wow, what a creative mind you have. Every once in a while a critic makes a claim that isn't instantaneously rendered meaningless by the first thought and apparently success is so rare for you guys that even this is viewed as one. If I get a few minutes I will address this trivial matter and so you might want to slow down and at least enjoy the time that one of your claims has before it is countered.

 

[kjw47]

Then by your definition only a person who reaches sinless perfection will get to heaven. God being perfect and sinless will not dwell with sin eternally so we must become perfect to do so then something must be done to make us perfect. Since our achieving sinless perfection by effort is out of the question as the bible says:
New International Version (©1984)
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
Then some other solution must be appealed to. When we REPENT and accept Christ then his perfect record is applied to our account and we are legally declared perfect. Even though we are still sinners. Since your doctrine makes what Christ did meaningless except for some superficial effect then IMO your view is not biblical. Any system dependant on works is not only wrong it is impossible.
I assumed repentance as existing as part of the salvation event and did not emphasize it. The bible says:
Acts 3:19

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
Ephesians 1:7

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
1 Timothy 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.

What do you do with verses like this:

New International Version (©1984)
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst
1 Timothy 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.
Again by your standard the apsostle who wrote more of the new testament than any other apparantly won't be in heaven either.


It seems that forgiveness is inexorably tied to Christ and is not the simple human effort you seem to suggest. The bible says he forgives all sins. Past, present, and future when we are saved. Any effort on our behalf to earn or merit heaven is reason for boasting and ruled out by the bible. I usually do not debate Christians in a public forum, I think it does no credit to God, but for now please continue and if I feel you have a reasonable counterpoint I will PM you or request you to PM me and we can hash it out. Shalom,

No one is perfect, but there are lists of gross sins God will not accept his follower doing, thats the point about being saved--this is the bottom line--Those who endure till the end will be saved-- not one of us has reached our end so we are not saved until we do then death pays the wages of sin. There is much effort required on the humans part to be a true follower, its a battle 24/7 for sinful humans to battle against the ruler of this world( satan) it takes alot of effort in fact Jesus put it like this--Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance of God--that takes alot of effort just to learn and apply every utterance--then on top of it ones own desperate, treacherous heart gets in the way of reasonings as well. It takes effort to do works--works build an strong living faith,faith without the works has no value. Gods word teaches--beware if you think you are standing strong.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec is not a descriptive term is it. You must have minions spitting out these multiple posts. Why the multiple posts everytime anyway?

i can only concentrate on one thing at a time...

You said his plans as in all his plans in totality.

can you tell me the difference between gods ministry and gods plan..
since you yourself said this:

A ministry usually involves a minister and is only one aspect of many in which God has revealed his will and plans.

what are the other aspects of the bible?

I only said certain aspects were entrusted to men. I specifically said he trusted the most important issues to a the only perfect being in human history.

the quote i responded to didn't imply that at all...
but if it makes you feel better about yourself

That has nothing to do with how a person is saved.

what did the christian represent in your statement?
here i'll help you: christians = people who follow a belief system which demands the highest standards of morality, right?
well not really but that is what you meant.
so what are you boasting about again?

The two statements mean exactly the same thing and since I wrote them I am the world's greatest expert on what they mean. It is good to be the best at something.

well you fail miserably at conveying one cohesive idea...there are so many loop holes in your arguments i'm beginning to think you are a conniving lawyer who has something to hide.

I have no idea what 95% of these emoticons mean and so it is wasted effort.

do you understand this emoticon?

 

[Nakosis]

I am sorry I missed this post today I will address it as soon as I can.

No rush. My posts are a chance to express myself as much as anything else. Not that I don't appreciate any comments offered. Just, it's ok if you don't get around to it.

You and waitasec seem to be enjoying your discussions, no need for me to be a third wheel.

 

[waitasec]

Wow, what a creative mind you have. Every once in a while a critic makes a claim that isn't instantaneously rendered meaningless by the first thought and apparently success is so rare for you guys that even this is viewed as one. If I get a few minutes I will address this trivial matter and so you might want to slow down and at least enjoy the time that one of your claims has before it is countered.

lets not forget this...
so what is the difference between being favored and being saved again...?
it sure looks like your stalling here.

it shouldn't be that difficult to answer this simple question...

is it difficult for you to tell someone what you name is? it could be a difficult thing if your in hiding and assume different identities though.

 

[1robin]

No rush. My posts are a chance to express myself as much as anything else. Not that I don't appreciate any comments offered. Just, it's ok if you don't get around to it.

You and waitasec seem to be enjoying your discussions, no need for me to be a third wheel.

I do not know if enjoy is the correct word. However Waiasec is killing me with sheer volume. Me keybord is getting hot, but please remind me if you do not get a response and you still desire one.

 

[1robin]

No one is perfect, but there are lists of gross sins God will not accept his follower doing, thats the point about being saved--this is the bottom line--Those who endure till the end will be saved-- not one of us has reached our end so we are not saved until we do then death pays the wages of sin. There is much effort required on the humans part to be a true follower, its a battle 24/7 for sinful humans to battle against the ruler of this world( satan) it takes alot of effort in fact Jesus put it like this--Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance of God--that takes alot of effort just to learn and apply every utterance--then on top of it ones own desperate, treacherous heart gets in the way of reasonings as well. It takes effort to do works--works build an strong living faith,faith without the works has no value. Gods word teaches--beware if you think you are standing strong.

This sounds like a Holyness doctrine. Is this the case. Since the bible specifically says that Christ forgives all sins and that is consistent with countless scriptures then the lists that name sins that can lead to death must not mean that spiritual death is implied. Christ says that whom the father gives him (saved) will be raised up on the last day as well as no one is able to snatch them out of his hand. I have heard that the list is a refernec to sins that likely result in physical death but I do not claim that is the case.

 

[waitasec]

Me keybord is getting hot, but please remind me if you do not get a response and you still desire one.

mine is smokin'

 

[1robin]

i can only concentrate on one thing at a time..

I will take your word for it..

can you tell me the difference between gods ministry and gods plan..
since you yourself said this:

Ministry is a component of his plan.

what are the other aspects of the bible?

Covers, index, and words!!!!! I didn't say bible. I said will and plans.

the quote i responded to didn't imply that at all...
but if it makes you feel better about yourself

Were caveats on sale where you live? Actually I know specifically what my statements meant on this issue. I have talked to you enough that I can anticipate some of your tactics and I remeber making my statement to avoid the pitfall you are mistakenly refering to.

what did the christian represent in your statement?
here i'll help you: christians = people who follow a belief system which demands the highest standards of morality, right?
well not really but that is what you meant.
so what are you boasting about again?

You may be right but that is not my definition of a Christian. My definition is one who is born again by faith in Christ. Now that person should do those other things but doing them is not what makes them a Christian. Your confusing your theology with mine. If I am not mistaken that might have been well stated.

well you fail miserably at conveying one cohesive idea...there are so many loop holes in your arguments i'm beginning to think you are a conniving lawyer who has something to hide.

I assure you my bank account is evidence against this theory. I have no agenda. My claims are sincerely what I believe filtered through a fallable mind or what is left of one. I have been very suprised to find my views are virtually identicle to orthedox protestant theology and also have been suprised how defendable the bible is in all aspects.

do you understand this emoticon?

At this point I don't understand the question.

 

[1robin]

lets not forget this...

By all means we would not want you to make only two posts in a row.

so what is the difference between being favored and being saved again...?
it sure looks like your stalling here.

What do you mean again? I never answered that question the first time. I am stalling and thought I said so. I will actaully have to think on this a little in between answering your minions and staring at emoticons and fixing an F-15 ESTS system (some of us lawyers work for a living).

it shouldn't be that difficult to answer this simple question...

I didn't say difficult I said not I did not have an immediate thought that ruled your claim void. It might be tomorrow. Calm down.

is it difficult for you to tell someone what you name is?

I do not know what YOU name even means.

it could be a difficult thing if your in hiding and assume different identities though.

What are you talking about?

 

[waitasec]

Ministry is a component of his plan.

Covers, index, and words!!!!! I didn't say bible. I said will and plans.

ok smarty pants, where do you derive gods will and plans from?

Were caveats on sale where you live? Actually I know specifically what my statements meant on this issue. I have talked to you enough that I can anticipate some of your tactics and I remeber making my statement to avoid the pitfall you are mistakenly refering to.

it's ok i already forgot what this was all about anyway

You may be right but that is not my definition of a Christian. My definition is one who is born again by faith in Christ. Now that person should do those other things but doing them is not what makes them a Christian. Your confusing your theology with mine. If I am not mistaken that might have been well stated.

i seem to remember a post where you so proudly stated that you diligently seacherd with an open heart and something about not being proud..isn't that something you did...a work?

I assure you my bank account is evidence against this theory. I have no agenda. My claims are sincerely what I believe filtered through a fallable mind or what is left of one. I have been very suprised to find my views are virtually identicle to orthedox protestant theology and also have been suprised how defendable the bible is in all aspects.

you seem to be quite peculiar in the one question you have yet to address....
the difference between being favored and being saved. it's as if you are afraid to commit to an answer because you really don't know what you are committing to.
why haven't you explained the difference?

 

[waitasec]

What do you mean again? I never answered that question the first time. I am stalling and thought I said so. I will actaully have to think on this a little in between answering your minions and staring at emoticons and fixing an F-15 ESTS system (some of us lawyers work for a living).

well i gotta work for a living too and with that i will let you earn your honest buck...

I didn't say difficult I said not I did not have an immediate thought that ruled your claim void. It might be tomorrow. Calm down.

i can't
:drool:

I do not know what YOU name even means.

you so silly...

What are you talking about?

generally, when someone isn't sure of what they are getting themselves into
they tend to say the least amount of words as possible so as to not get themselves in a bind. and the fact that you are stalling says something to me...you don't know what you are getting yourself into...time will only tell.

later.

 

[1robin]

ok smarty pants, where do you derive gods will and plans from?

Television. I kid. Among other things the Holy spirit in my life, in the lives of other Christians, theological philosophy, the Bible, History. Etc....

it's ok i already forgot what this was all about anyway

I know.

i seem to remember a post where you so proudly stated that you diligently seacherd with an open heart and something about not being proud..isn't that something you did...a work?

I already explained this. I could have been saved early without any searching early on but was too full of independance, pride, etc.. Fortunately the multiplexer that has kicked my butt all morning has drained both my brain cells and I can't just review what I already said in answer to this or remind me tomorrow.



[/quote]you seem to be quite peculiar in the one question you have yet to address....
the difference between being favored and being saved. it's as if you are afraid to commit to an answer because you really don't know what you are committing to.
why haven't you explained the difference?[/quote] You have apparently abandoned a critique of the bible and found a softer target (me). I want to wait until you have so much riding on this answer that the effect of my rebuttal will be devestating. That or I refuse to think any further. Where are the other two posts I don't know what to do now?

 

[1robin]

well i gotta work for a living too and with that i will let you earn your honest buck...




i can't
:drool:

you so silly...




generally, when someone isn't sure of what they are getting themselves into
they tend to say the least amount of words as possible so as to not get themselves in a bind. and the fact that you are stalling says something to me...you don't know what you are getting yourself into...time will only tell.

later.

If you will review I bet you will find at least a five or ten to one ratio in my favor of the word counts in posts between us. Where is an emoticon that means you should not have said that? I am out but please remind me if I forget the all important issue that has plagued mankind through the years of what is the difference between favoritism and salvation. It was probably sttled on the sermon on the mount or a U.N summit but I will add my two cents soon. Shalom,

 

[kjw47]

This sounds like a Holyness doctrine. Is this the case. Since the bible specifically says that Christ forgives all sins and that is consistent with countless scriptures then the lists that name sins that can lead to death must not mean that spiritual death is implied. Christ says that whom the father gives him (saved) will be raised up on the last day as well as no one is able to snatch them out of his hand. I have heard that the list is a refernec to sins that likely result in physical death but I do not claim that is the case.

At Matt 7:21-23--- These are those who are told they are christian--they believe in Jesus,They will call on his name--I would say they were told they were saved as well. The problem is is that they did not repent ( a worker of iniquity( lawlessness) is a practicer of sin. And since this is Jesus speaking these words( i will confess,i never even knew you) that all sin is not forgiven just because Jesus died for sin--it is a requirement on the humans part to repent( stop doing the sin) -- Many are being told they are saved by false teachers, its not reality--they are workers of iniquity and have never belonged to Jesus or the Father to start with. Just as Jesus was saying there in Matthew--(you were never mine to begin with)99% of all religions claiming to be christian are false. They do not listen to Jesus.

 

[1robin]

At Matt 7:21-23--- These are those who are told they are christian--they believe in Jesus,They will call on his name--I would say they were told they were saved as well.

By who?

The problem is is that they did not repent ( a worker of iniquity( lawlessness) is a practicer of sin. And since this is Jesus speaking these words( i will confess,i never even knew you) that all sin is not forgiven just because Jesus died for sin--it is a requirement on the humans part to repent( stop doing the sin)

No everyone is not automatically forgiven because Jesus died. His work was suffecient but does not apply until a Christian accepts this sacrifice and is born again. When he becomes born again the Holy spirit which is in effect God and Christ comes to live with us. We are adopted as sons of God and reconciled to him, our name is written in the lambs book of life and all our sins past, present and future are forgiven since from God's perspective he knew them all and since he would know if he will have to in our future ultimately reject us then saving us is a futile act and makes no sense. If after that after all this Jesus says he never knew us that would be a lie and not possible. If these verses are stripped from context and seperated from the whole biblical narrative then they are troubleing. If allowed to harmonise with the rest of scripture they are just another commentary on what a true Christian will do verses a superficial one.

-- Many are being told they are saved by false teachers, its not reality--they are workers of iniquity and have never belonged to Jesus or the Father to start with. Just as Jesus was saying there in Matthew--(you were never mine to begin with)99% of all religions claiming to be christian are false. They do not listen to Jesus.

Your 99% claim is an unknowable figure and makes no sense. You are suggesting God allowed his religion to be in effect completely high jacked and used as a tool of satan. I do not believe in that God. Let's review a conservative commentary:

I. He shows, by a plain remonstrance, that an outward profession of religion, however remarkable, will not bring us to heaven, unless there be a correspondent conversation, Matthew 7:21-23. All judgment is committed to our Lord Jesus; the keys are put into his hand; he has power to prescribe new terms of life and death, and to judge men according to them: now this is a solemn declaration pursuant to that power.
Matthew - Chapter 7 - Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on StudyLight.org

This commentary is consistent with my understanding with these verses.
I regard repentace as a necessary attitude before salvation can take place. I reject your arrival at a sinless perfection before we can enter heaven. Since the bible makes clear that no one (not you or me) will ever reach perfection your view is irrational. It also makes what Christ did unnecessary as good works are achievable without his sacrifice. No works based salvation is even possible. If you think it is then lay out what a possible one would look like.

 

[waitasec]

If you will review I bet you will find at least a five or ten to one ratio in my favor of the word counts in posts between us.

i'm not talking about our entire discourse, silly,...i'm talking about why you're stalling.

 

[s2a]

there r many religion in the world, but surly there r only one right religion, but how could we reach the right believe, the right path?

This was my suggested remedy...

How to prove God to an atheist (no, really)...

 

[1robin]

i'm not talking about our entire discourse, silly,...i'm talking about why you're stalling.

Nice retroactive qualifier. So you have discovered a philisophic principle of argumentation that only applies to one sentence or subject.

Try this one on:
New International Version (©1984)
Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

Got Commentary?

Is no respecter of persons - The word used here denotes "the act of showing favor to one on account of rank, family, wealth, or partiality arising from any cause." It is explained in James 2:1-4. A judge is a respecter of persons when he favors one of the parties on account of private friendship, or because he is a man of rank, influence, or power, or because he belongs to the same political party, etc. The Jews supposed that they were especially favored by God. and that salvation was not extended to other nations, and that the fact of being a Jew entitled them to this favor. Peter here says that he had learned the error of this doctrine, and that a man is not to be accepted because he is a Jew, nor to be excluded because he is a Gentile. The barrier is broken down; the offer is made to all; God will save all on the same principle; not by external privileges or rank, but according to their character.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

or

(James 2:1) "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."
A Respecter of Persons James 2:1-13

The definition of favoritism is this:
Noun:The practice of giving unfair preferential treatment to one person or group at the expense of another.
Wikipedia - Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster

This is not really something the bible addresses in too much detail. It simply says waitasec is wrong and then moves on. I don't know why you were so interested in this but I imagine semantics or the critique of my grammer is all that is left. Since Christianity also promotes ministry to the poorest and most unfortunate among us and since it is the only valid basis on which to declare men equal then you probably should not have pushed so hard for this answer. Since I imagine there is no avoiding the counterclaim that God is wrong and the book that says God does not show favoritism actually promotes favoritism I will just end here.

 

[Curious George]

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

Was reading this and either I misunderstood or it did not match up with the rest of your post. in the link you provided I read:

But this does not affirm that he will not make a difference in their character, and then treat them according to their character, nor that he will not pardon whom he pleases. That is a different question. The interpretation of this passage should be limited strictly to the case in hand - to mean that God will not accept and save a man on account of external national rank and privileges. That he will not make a difference on other grounds is not affirmed here, nor anywhere in the Bible