the right religion

[waitasec]

There is no fight over who God is- he told everyone his name is YHWH( Jehovah)
Yes Allah is just a title--God is a personal living being with a name.

you are over looking a name that is central to CHRISTianity

 

[1robin]

While i was a fornicator,thief,drug addict,drunk,liar,etc on a daily basis, i attended a baptist church--the teacher said that if i came up front and prayed 3 lines i was born again( saved). That is so far from truth it isnt funny to tell someone that--its a serious lie, there isnt a mortal alive who has the right to try and tell another that they are in a saved position. So you are right about biblical doctrines.

I was commenting on the misunderstanding you had concerning those verses. It seems you have switched topics. It is an absolute fact that we become Christians by being born again which is determined by our faith and our hearts condition. No amount of works (saying any repetitive phrases, incantation, good conduct, or being in a church) will get us to heaven or make us good. When we are born again the holy spirit comes to live in our heart and our name is written in the lambs book of life (the book in revelation that is opened at the judgement to determine who goes to heaven and who does not). Whoever told you that was not giving you the correct story. We are to be reborn by the spirit and cleansed of all sins by accepting Christ. Then we should be baptized which is an outward symbol of what happened in us.That is what happened to me when I was 27 and I was not even in a church at the time and it was an unmistakable supernatural event that changed me forever. I found God because I diligently searched for him, had an open heart, and too little pride to stubbornly refuse my inevitable accountability.

 

[waitasec]

I was commenting on the misunderstanding you had concerning those verses. It seems you have switched topics. It is an absolute fact that we become Christians by being born again which is determined by our faith and our hearts condition. No amount of works (saying any repetitive phrases, incantation, good conduct, or being in a church) will get us to heaven or make us good. When we are born again the holy spirit comes to live in our heart and our name is written in the lambs book of life (the book in revelation that is opened at the judgement to determine who goes to heaven and who does not). Whoever told you that was not giving you the correct story. We are to be reborn by the spirit and cleansed of all sins by accepting Christ. Then we should be baptized which is an outward symbol of what happened in us.That is what happened to me when I was 27 and I was not even in a church at the time and it was an unmistakable supernatural event that changed me forever. I found God because I diligently searched for him, had an open heart, and too little pride to stubbornly refuse my inevitable accountability.

and i suppose you have been given the gift of diligence... and have the ability to open your heart...unlike us poor blokes who lack that ability as we wander aimlessly in this meaningless existence, aye?

 

[1robin]

and i suppose you have been given the gift of diligence... and have the ability to open your heart...unlike us poor blokes who lack that ability as we wander aimlessly in this meaningless existence, aye?

If you can in some way link this with what I said I will address it.

 

[waitasec]

If you can in some way link this with what I said I will address it.

ok but 1st
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3005115-post1929.html

 

[1robin]

ok but 1st
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3005115-post1929.html

What does this mean? Are you wanting me to respond to this post first?

 

[waitasec]

I found God because I diligently searched for him, had an open heart, and too little pride to stubbornly refuse my inevitable accountability.

was that an action done on your part or was it something that just happened without you doing anything?
you do play a very vital role in your own salvation, both you and god are equally responsible for it...

 

[waitasec]

What does this mean? Are you wanting me to respond to this post first?

yes i want you to respond to this http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3005115-post1929.html pst first, if you will.

 

[1robin]

it's not strange. you are the one putting forth quasi evidence.

To ask the one who has faith if he has a problem with faith is strange.

faith is not reasonable. not the faith mentioned in hebrews 11...
i find your stance to be irreconcilable, so.. whatever makes you feel better.

I disagree. Why are you always adding these useless caveats at the end of most statements?

semantics is the key and if you can't explain yourself accurately then you failed in doing so.

No semantics is the fall back position when you can't actually counter the claim. It is in effect loosing the court case but getting an aquital by a legal technicality, if there actually was one.

why did you dodge the point?
you are willingly saying to yourself that any of the people you care about in your life in the here and now are potentially going to be erased from your memory...can you actually talk about what we are talking about?

No I said that no memory of any person will cause pain in heaven, but I added that removal of a memory might be a method but I do not know the method.
Once again since your counter system anihilates all memory as well as any ultimate meaning and purpose then I find your position worse in every single aspect regardless of the method God uses.

wow...so any or all of those you care for being erased from your memory sits well with you?

So I take it you never go to sleep because 99% of that time is spent unaware of any loved ones at all.

see, the difference here is that you are so desperately trying to use your silly disclaimers that explains the double standard here. "my system" is the ultimate finality of what i know...which includes everyone i know...not just some of what i know and who i know, and that is where the double standards is applied for you...you are willing to say some of the people you know will be forgotten. how is that going to work with people whose lives are interwoven? you got some essplaining to do...

Since your sytem anihilates the memory of every loved one even if mine involved the anihilation of some of them then it is still better. In no version of either your view or mine would your be preferable even if only evaluated on this (appeal to sypathy) issue.

if you only had one chance to do something, something that was meaningful, would you want to dive into it and relish it? connection to others seems to be something that is disposable for you because you are willing to say to yourself, 'i might not remember this person in the hereafter', which diminishes the connection you have with them now.

First the most meaningful thing or person I have ever found is Christ and my relationship with him will not end. The bible contains the most meaningful concepts and relationships in human history. The chance that I will or will not remember someone in heaven has absolutely no bearing on any decisions I make now.

it's actually quite simple.
i have come to the point of surrender...i will die, everyone i've known or know has or will. not some, but all of us will.
it's been happening since life began.
so really "your system" of retaining most memories is actually a selfish and narrow way of looking at it.

You know it seems to be an irrational obsession for the more bitter of critics to assign the most nagative label possible to biblical things the vast majority of people consider some of the most cherished ideas possible. If heaven resembled any of these meaningless negative labels you list why are most people trying very hard to get there?. Why would martyrs who had had a taste of what God is when they were born again willing to give up this life for the next?

what about those who have had pathetic lives whose memories are tainted with constant pain? you speak from the bravery of being out of range from the horrific situation...but again, if it makes you feel better, that's all that matters...who cares if it doesn't really make sense.

What in the world? Only my system makes all the wrongs right in the end. Yours ends pain with futility. You are quite incorrect to assume I have been insulated from pain, besides having no frame of reference to make the judgement. I have had to watch a person as close to me as a human could be die a slow painful death over the course of 5 plus years when I was 12 -17 years old. Some of the people with the most tragic stories also posses the greatest faith. That is why the apostles could be in prison for all they knew facing death and singing songs of praise. They could do so because in the end they would have justice. In your system they would have anihilation. That is also why most of the songs composed by slaves in the old south were spiritual, they sure were not singing thank goodness I will be eventually anihilated.

stop dodging the issue...you are willing to be brain washed.

I trust God. These appeals to sympathy by assigning every biblical concept the most negative label reagrdless of accuracy or integrity is the wormanship of those who cannot make the point without them.

there can be no happiness without sorrow...if sorrow disappeared then happiness becomes null.

This makes no sence and is inconsistent with nature and philosophy.

 

[1robin]

was that an action done on your part or was it something that just happened without you doing anything?

This is a complecated issue. There were times previous to this occasion when I was actually actually in Church to chase a girl or any of several reasons that had nothing to do with looking for God. I can remember twice feeling compeled to except Christ and both times I feared emberrassment and a resistance to accountability so I refused/rejected him. If I simply had not resisted I would have been a Christian much earlier than I was and my life would have been infinately enriched. Since we have already beat this horse into goo I have no desire to ressurect it.

syou do play a very vital role in your own salvation, both you and god are equally responsible for it...

How can you play the role of scholar for a concept you think doesn't exist. A scientist that doesn't believe the moon exists would be a poor lecturer on the properties of the moon. Since your ideas on this issue contradict Paul, every born again Christian I know, and me I do not consider them meaningful.

 

[1robin]

yes i want you to respond to this http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3005115-post1929.html pst first, if you will.

No problem and Done.

 

[waitasec]

To ask the one who has faith if he has a problem with faith is strange.

can we agree faith =/= objective empirical evidence?

I disagree.

can you explain how you reconcile them without using your feelings as justification for a double standard?

No semantics is the fall back position when you can't actually counter the claim. It is in effect loosing the court case but getting an aquital by a legal technicality, if there actually was one.

you have nothing to go on except on faith...which doesn't add up to objective empirical evidence. semantics is a part of language it's a part of communicating logically.

No I said that no memory of any person will cause pain in heaven, but I added that removal of a memory might be a method but I do not know the method.
Once again since your counter system anihilates all memory as well as any ultimate meaning and purpose then I find your position worse in every single aspect regardless of the method God uses.

right, you are essentially being brain washed and thats ok by you...
because it will make you feel better about the reality of why they are not there in the 1st place. cool.

So I take it you never go to sleep because 99% of that time is spent unaware of any loved ones at all.

are you that desperate?

Since your sytem anihilates the memory of every loved one even if mine involved the anihilation of some of them then it is still better. In no version of either your view or mine would your be preferable even if only evaluated on this (appeal to sypathy) issue.

you are missing the point.
it is that you, right now, are willing to be ignorant of what will happen to the ones you care for right now when it comes to the hereafter. this is the perfect example of ignorance is bliss. i find that odd and it also scares the crap out of me because there are yahoos running around who believe what you do who have some twisted interpretation of what their religion is and have attained WMD and are willingly giving themselves over to ignorance of what may happen to those they "care" for in the here and now.

First the most meaningful thing or person I have ever found is Christ and my relationship with him will not end. The bible contains the most meaningful concepts and relationships in human history. The chance that I will or will not remember someone in heaven has absolutely no bearing on any decisions I make now.

you proved my point...

You know it seems to be an irrational obsession for the more bitter of critics to assign the most nagative label possible to biblical things the vast majority of people consider some of the most cherished ideas possible. If heaven resembled any of these meaningless negative labels you list why are most people trying very hard to get there?. Why would martyrs who had had a taste of what God is when they were born again willing to give up this life for the next?

how is it not selfish if one willingly allows for ignorance to protect them from the "reality" they know those they love and care for are facing?

What in the world? Only my system makes all the wrongs right in the end.

sure if your are ignorant of the 'torment' others are going through everything is honky dory....

Yours ends pain with futility.

no not at all, because at the very last moment of my life i can say to myself, i did the best i could with what i had...

You are quite incorrect to assume I have been insulated from pain, besides having no frame of reference to make the judgement. I have had to watch a person as close to me as a human could be die a slow painful death over the course of 5 plus years when I was 12 -17 years old. Some of the people with the most tragic stories also posses the greatest faith. That is why the apostles could be in prison for all they knew facing death and singing songs of praise. They could do so because in the end they would have justice. In your system they would have anihilation. That is also why most of the songs composed by slaves in the old south were spiritual, they sure were not singing thank goodness I will be eventually anihilated.

so then most of your life will be erased? what sort of memories will you have? there will be a selected few of those that were apart of good memories but what if some of those selected few didn't make it? then those memories will be erased or altered and you still are willing to be brain washed...
hmmm...

I trust God. These appeals to sympathy by assigning every biblical concept the most negative label reagrdless of accuracy or integrity is the wormanship of those who cannot make the point without them.

the concept of salvation is selfish.

This makes no sence and is inconsistent with nature and philosophy.

of course whatever makes you feel better.

 

[Nakosis]

This is a complecated issue. There were times previous to this occasion when I was actually actually in Church to chase a girl or any of several reasons that had nothing to do with looking for God. I can remember twice feeling compeled to except Christ and both times I feared emberrassment and a resistance to accountability so I refused/rejected him. If I simply had not resisted I would have been a Christian much earlier than I was and my life would have been infinately enriched. Since we have already beat this horse into goo I have no desire to ressurect it.

Here's the way I honestly look at it.

Grace is like a river, a current. That current is going to pull you irresistible along.

You can think what you want do what you want. Swim against the current, try to grab onto some random log floating by. Relax and let the current pull you along or even perhaps, if you are smart enough or perhaps just lucky, swim with the current so you'll get to your destination faster. However you are going to get their one way are another. Up to you to exhaust yourself fighting it if you want.

It's the current that pulls us along. That is not of our own doing. Us splashing about, perhaps foolishly. That's us.

Likely many Christians think they are swimming with the current. Maybe they are and maybe not. Me I like to relax and try to gauge the direction of the flow. Maybe test a few strokes here and there and observe the results. Splashing about when you don't know what you are doing just kind of confuses things. makes it difficult to be aware of the current.

Regardless the river is going to continue to carry you down stream. I think spiritually, the idea is to not judge your situation by what you see rushing by on the river banks but get a view of the river from ten thousand feet. From there you can see where you've been and perhaps see where you are going.

However there is nothing that allows you to alter or change the river/current in anyway. You are more or less along for the the ride. The only thing that changes is your awareness.

 

[1robin]

can we agree faith =/= objective empirical evidence?

I must be misunderstanding you. To have objective empirical proof negates the need of faith. I do not know where you are going with this but this is the definition of faith:
faith(f

th)
n. 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
I will add that it is a well-known fact that great amounts of what we universally acknowledge as true is based primarily of faith concerning secular matters.

can you explain how you reconcile them without using your feelings as justification for a double standard?

Any book as in any testimony that is backed up by vast amounts of historical corroboration, explanatory power, hundreds and hundreds of fulfilled prophetic claims, philosophic consistency, and able to withstand incredible scrutiny suggests it is reliable even in the improvable claims.

you have nothing to go on except on faith...which doesn't add up to objective empirical evidence. semantics is a part of language it's a part of communicating logically.

Yes, and every one knows faith has no connection with religion or the other 80% of the things we believe in. Semantics is what is appealed to when substance can't be.

right, you are essentially being brain washed and that’s ok by you...
because it will make you feel better about the reality of why they are not there in the 1st place. cool.

Do you think describing the details in the thought processes of someone you have never met and you have only the slightest idea about has any merit worth mentioning?

are you that desperate?

Of course it was a silly example because you made a silly claim. However it is technically applicable.

you are missing the point.
it is that you, right now, are willing to be ignorant of what will happen to the ones you care for right now when it comes to the hereafter. this is the perfect example of ignorance is bliss. i find that odd and it also scares the crap out of me because there are yahoos running around who believe what you do who have some twisted interpretation of what their religion is and have attained WMD and are willingly giving themselves over to ignorance of what may happen to those they "care" for in the here and now.

Actually acknowledging the truth of what will happen even though it may currently be unpleasant but trusting God to make everything work out in the end is the opposite of ignorant. Choosing to reject something because you find it unpleasant because you ignore the competency of God is ignorant.

you proved my point...

Even I couldn't prove one of your points.

how is it not selfish if one willingly allows for ignorance to protect them from the "reality" they know those they love and care for are facing?

You keep focusing on a method I gave as example of something that only the end result is given. It could be that God will simply not allow a thought to produce pain. You are assuming some arbitrary limit to God's capacity or capability that justifies your resentment and has bearing on biblical reality. It is truly ignorant to limit the only being ever believed to be limitless.

sure if your are ignorant of the 'torment' others are going through everything is honky dory....

You are assuming that they are tormented. I do not have a firm position but lean to the souls annihilation but to deny whatever the reality turns out to be is counterproductive. Why don't you call St Jude’s and tell the patients there that they aren't sick because you find cancer unpleasant. The annihilation theory is about the most perfect justice I could imagine. God gave you life and you used it to reject him and so he takes it away.

no not at all, because at the very last moment of my life i can say to myself, i did the best i could with what i had...

Not if the bible is true.

so then most of your life will be erased? what sort of memories will you have? there will be a selected few of those that were apart of good memories but what if some of those selected few didn't make it? then those memories will be erased or altered and you still are willing to be brain washed...
hmmm...

Why do you expect I can accurately describe details that no man on earth has ever done. The only thing that has been given says it is a very good place where there is no pain and misery neither is thare any death and so your claims concerning details are even more meaningless than mine. That does remind me of something though. I reject 99% of claims of NDE. I however heard a well-documented case of a guy in Africa who was declared dead for almost a day. He said he went to heaven and said it was so beautiful and he was so completely content that he had virtually no words capable of describing it. He broke into tears of joy every time he would try and remember the experience. The only thing he described in earthly terms was flowers made out of transparent gold. I have heard this in other accounts as well. There is also a well-known book by a I think 9 year old who described his grandfather that he met in heaven as a teen ager. His parents said they have no pictures of him and the child never met him in actual life. There is a lot more to these stories as I said I reject 99% of them.

the concept of salvation is selfish.

I cannot think of a more irrational statement.

of course whatever makes you feel better.

What is up with these silly quips added onto the end of everything? It reminds me of that picture where the 4" mouse is shooting a bird at the 3 foot eagle that is 6 inches away from swallowing him. It also reminds me of a story I read by the daughter (I think) of Joseph Stalin. She said when he was on his deathbed he constantly battled what seemed to be literal angels and demons. She said the last thing he did was open his eyes sat up and pumped his fist at heaven and then died. Those stories are meant for entertainment not a direct association.

 

[waitasec]

I cannot think of a more irrational statement.

i will respond to the rest later tonight...

can you explain why that is an irrational statement?
what is the point of salvation? is it for you or is it for god...
considering when a person who says this:

I found God because I diligently searched for him, had an open heart, and too little pride to stubbornly refuse my inevitable accountability.

is basing their salvation on selfish motivation and self determination?
what is being said, is the one who has the ability to
seek and be open are only capable to haughtily display their humility.
are you really going to say that i am, for example, not capable of seeking and being open? really?
:slap: shame on you.
what was the point in that ridiculous statement i quoted? that you are better because you were capable of being saved?

and i will quote you:

Do you think describing the details in the thought processes of someone you have never met and you have only the slightest idea about has any merit worth mentioning?

the thought process you put out there to be dissected is up for grabs. if you put it out there don't go crying because your thought process is being stomped on.


so again..how is this statement

the concept of salvation is selfish.

an extreme irrational statement?

and the entire concept of accountability it laughable. especially when you sold your accountability for the purpose of salvation...yes, salvation is selfish

 

[kjw47]

I was commenting on the misunderstanding you had concerning those verses. It seems you have switched topics. It is an absolute fact that we become Christians by being born again which is determined by our faith and our hearts condition. No amount of works (saying any repetitive phrases, incantation, good conduct, or being in a church) will get us to heaven or make us good. When we are born again the holy spirit comes to live in our heart and our name is written in the lambs book of life (the book in revelation that is opened at the judgement to determine who goes to heaven and who does not). Whoever told you that was not giving you the correct story. We are to be reborn by the spirit and cleansed of all sins by accepting Christ. Then we should be baptized which is an outward symbol of what happened in us.That is what happened to me when I was 27 and I was not even in a church at the time and it was an unmistakable supernatural event that changed me forever. I found God because I diligently searched for him, had an open heart, and too little pride to stubbornly refuse my inevitable accountability.

One is not cleansed of all sins by accepting Christ--Repentence gets sin blotted out-acts 3:19--- these accepted christ-matt 7:21-23-- it didnt work for them to accept Jesus. they didnt repent--a worker of iniquity( lawlessness) is a practicer of sin. Repentence is the stopping of the doing of a sin as shown in 1 cor 6:9-11-- where it says-- that is what some of you were( past tense) they stopped practicing sin.

 

[1robin]

i will respond to the rest later tonight...

can you explain why that is an irrational statement?
what is the point of salvation? is it for you or is it for god...
considering when a person who says this:

I think you meant to put this somewhere else. It looks the same as the comment at the end.

is basing their salvation on selfish motivation and self determination?

Salvation requires the abandonment of self determination. As far as human lives go I do not know of an applicable topic that is more the opposite of self determination than is salvation.

what is being said, is the one who has the ability to
seek and be open are only capable to haughtily display their humility.

The bolded words are contradictory. No, I said that that is what I did. Paul for instance was knocked off a horse. some were saved on their deathbed, some on the battlefield, others in prison, and many in a Church. There are many different physical conditions that have preceded salvation but an open heart is as far as I know manditory as well as the absence of a strong sense of pride. It was my pride and my fear of peer pressure as well as my desire for self determination (a delusion in the ultimate sense if ever there was one) that had stopped my being saved much earlier than I was. Among the few consistent things I have always felt when in the presence of God is shame. If you could imagine perfect contentment tinted with a hint of shame thats close. I know of nothing more anti God than pride. That does not mean that I never falter in respect to pride. A Christian friend of mine jokingly says he is a thousand times more humble than anyone.
You seem to me like a machine that you feed in statements that are synonymous with what most people at least in the west feel is good and valuable then the most negative version of that is spit out the other end. The words of the mouth belie the condition of the heart.

are you really going to say that I am, for example, not capable of seeking and being open? really?

Nice appeal to victimhood. I imagine you are capable of anything any one else is. IMO your bitterness towards Christianity blocks the acceptance of that which you dislike. However you are capable of adopting any new outlook you wish.

shame on you.
what was the point in that ridiculous statement i quoted? that you are better because you were capable of being saved?

It is not a capability it is a lack of resistance. Whether I am saved or not has no bearing on me being better or worse. If fact many terrible people get to heaven because they can easily see their terribleness and the need for repentance. The guy who mistakenly concludes he is a good person (at least in a biblical sense) finds no need of repentance. If you can't separate salvation from our earning or deserving it then it can't be understood and is just another man-made philosophy. Nice appeal to sympathy by the way.

and i will quote you:

Quote one single statement I have ever said that suggests I am better than you. You are making this assumption and then blaming me for it. If I get to heaven it will be in spite of me and because of God. What is all this woe is me stuff?

the thought process you put out there to be dissected is up for grabs. if you put it out there don't go crying because your thought process is being stomped on.

The last thing I would use to characterize what you have been doing is stomp on anything. Recycling what I say with the most negative version possible, an appeal to sympathy, or just running in circles or direct mischaracterization: yes stomping no.

so again..how is this statement
an extreme irrational statement?

One of the most awful sins said to prevent the acceptance of God listed in the bible is pride which is the root of selfishness. So you might as well say fire results from ice. To be saved requires the adoption of ideas contrary to selfishness. One of those awful Church cliques, but one I found applicable is "Let go and let God". Contrite: but very applicable. It is the most fundamental action of a Christian is the lack of reliance on self and adoption of trust in something else. I can't imagine anything more contradictory to selfishness.
I am finding this latest round of negative allusions to what the universal Christian understanding is almost compulsive on your part. I seem to attract people especially women that suffered something real or imagined that had hurt them to which they then attribute to Christianity. I believe you have indicated this is the case with you but I have never encountered this level of negativity before (with the exception of one remarkable incident). If I have misstated your position I apologize.

and the entire concept of accountability it laughable. Especially when you sold your accountability for the purpose of salvation...yes, salvation is selfish

What did I sell? It is impossible to be saved without a higher sense of accountability than is generally understood. When you adopt faith in a God that said it is not only wrong to commit adultery but it is wrong to think about it is anything but being less accountable. The bible doesn't reduce but only adds to the accountability that is present without him. In fact one of the biggest impediments to a person’s being saved is the desire to resist accountability. You can find the conditions of pride and the desire to resist accountability as the two most commonly refered to hurdles to a person accepting Christ in missionary literature including the bible its self for the last 1800 years plus.

G.K. Chesterton said he never believed in God until he saw the stupid contradictions in the arguments against him. Critics of God will sincerely state that the bible is too strict, too permissive, too warlike, too passive, too complicated, not sophisticated enough, too pessimistic, too optomistic, etc..... He said:
"The charges seemed inconsistent. Christianity could not [at the same time] be the black mask on a white world, and also the white mask on a black world. The state of a Christian could not be [at the same time] so comfortable that he was a coward to cling to it, and so uncomfortable that he was a fool to stand it (ibid., p. 90).
The real reason that unbelievers attack Christianity as too frightening and too comforting - at the same time - is because
"The carnal mind is enmity [hostile] against God"
(Romans 8:7)."

He was known as the apostle of common sense and was one of the greatest word smiths in history.
Wouldn't this all be simpler if we said you don't like/agree with Christianity and you see everything through that lens and leave it there, the rest is mere commentary.

 

[waitasec]

I think you meant to put this somewhere else. It looks the same as the comment at the end.

this is what i meant to say:
can you explain why that is an irrational statement?
what is the point of salvation? is it for you or is it for god...
considering when a person who says this: {insert your quote} is basing their salvation on selfish motivation and self determination?

The bolded words are contradictory.

right, that is what i was pointing out...
how can you say this in the same sentence is beyond me:{your quote}

I found God because I diligently searched for him, had an open heart, and too little pride to stubbornly refuse my inevitable accountability.

how can one make this statement in a humble fashion? so yes it is haughtily displaying humility..that is my point.
you proclaim to be diligently searching..is that being humble? :no:
you proclaimed to have an open heart...is that being humble? :no:
you proclaim to disregard pride and stuborness...is that being humble :no:
that is being a show off...why would you need to show off to yourself?

it's as if you are completely unaware of how you put down those who do not see what you see as being stubborn and refuse to want to be diligent and open...
this is what would have been acceptable.
"i saw for myself who god is" or i found God because i diligently searched for him, had an open heart, and couldn't escape my inevitable accountability. all that other stuff that you added on was not necessary and therefore reeks of hubris.

do see where i am going with this?
this brand of christianity is a contradiction in terms. you are to be humble/meek yet show off and rub your humble skills in other peoples faces..it doesn't add up to me...it's absolutely silly...just sayin'

Salvation requires the abandonment of self determination. As far as human lives go I do not know of an applicable topic that is more the opposite of self determination than is salvation.

explain how one can be diligent while not being determined?

if you abandoned self determination where did your diligence come from?

No, I said that that is what I did.

what did you do exactly, save yourself by diligently searching for god?
and you are telling me that salvation isn't based on works? good grief!!!

Paul for instance was knocked off a horse.

this is interesting...supposedly paul was knocked off a horse, so how did he
diligently search for god...or was god unavoidable, according to this nonsense?

some were saved on their deathbed, some on the battlefield, others in prison, and many in a Church.

fear and regret can be powerful tools for conversion...however, did they diligently search for god as you proclaim you did or would you say they made these decisions based on fear and regret?

There are many different physical conditions that have preceded salvation but an open heart is as far as I know manditory as well as the absence of a strong sense of pride.

then you are begging for the question...if one cannot see god are they then not open?
your position is to say "yes"... right?
and if you say yes then how are you being meek and humble and non judgmental?

It was my pride and my fear of peer pressure as well as my desire for self determination (a delusion in the ultimate sense if ever there was one) that had stopped my being saved much earlier than I was.

you were still determined to be diligently searching for god. great you found him...wonderful for you...however you still, if you are interested in doing so, need to explain how one can save themselves without working towards it as you yourself said you searched diligently while others were forced by fear and regret...paul as far as i am concerned is an exaggerated character in the bible so whatever you say about him will be accepted with a truck load of salt.

Among the few consistent things I have always felt when in the presence of God is shame.

i'm sorry to hear that.

If you could imagine perfect contentment tinted with a hint of shame thats close. I know of nothing more anti God than pride.

yet you proclaim of your open heart and your humble diligent search for god

keep it to your self. but if you want to compare yourself to others then by all means continue to do so as you fluff up your internal capabilities that god is so fond of.

Nice appeal to victimhood. I imagine you are capable of anything any one else is. IMO your bitterness towards Christianity blocks the acceptance of that which you dislike. However you are capable of adopting any new outlook you wish.

no i am not appealing to victimhood...i am merely pointing out your insistence of showing off as you proclaim to be all the things god wants you to be in order to be saved...it's actually astounding that you are so unaware of your lack of tact so i just have to shove it back right atcha in order for you to get a sense of the audacious statements you make.


so again, how is saying the concept of salvation is selfish
if it's not ultimately to save ones own behind?

 

[waitasec]

What did I sell?

your accountability. it isn't yours anymore...you traded it for your salvation...

It is impossible to be saved without a higher sense of accountability than is generally understood.

here is the thing...integrity is my higher sense of accountability...at the end of the day it is ME that i have to come to terms with...this may be difficult for you to understand as it's coming from someone who doesn't believe in the the god of the bible...or any god in particular, but i value honesty and truth. are you shocked or are you forced to think to yourself, 'she has got to be kidding herself'?
:tsk:

When you adopt faith in a God that said it is not only wrong to commit adultery but it is wrong to think about it is anything but being less accountable. The bible doesn't reduce but only adds to the accountability that is present without him.

thought control is a very dangerous thing.

In fact one of the biggest impediments to a person’s being saved is the desire to resist accountability. You can find the conditions of pride and the desire to resist accountability as the two most commonly refered to hurdles to a person accepting Christ in missionary literature including the bible its self for the last 1800 years plus.

you can also find conditions of pride when one proclaims they are saved.

G.K. Chesterton said he never believed in God until he saw the stupid contradictions in the arguments against him. Critics of God will sincerely state that the bible is too strict, too permissive, too warlike, too passive, too complicated, not sophisticated enough, too pessimistic, too optomistic, etc..... He said:
"The charges seemed inconsistent. Christianity could not [at the same time] be the black mask on a white world, and also the white mask on a black world. The state of a Christian could not be [at the same time] so comfortable that he was a coward to cling to it, and so uncomfortable that he was a fool to stand it (ibid., p. 90).
The real reason that unbelievers attack Christianity as too frightening and too comforting - at the same time - is because
"The carnal mind is enmity [hostile] against God"
(Romans 8:7)."

well explain this concept that we were made in the image of god?
if god created us with the capacity to be curious, why hold it against us if we are curious and won't stop asking until our curiosity has been satisfied?

He was known as the apostle of common sense and was one of the greatest word smiths in history.
Wouldn't this all be simpler if we said you don't like/agree with Christianity and you see everything through that lens and leave it there, the rest is mere commentary.

i am giving you reasons why i dislike/disagree with christianity...it's not supposed to be simple in a debating forum...

 

[waitasec]

Quote one single statement I have ever said that suggests I am better than you.

answer me this please.
are you saved and i am not?
yes or no.

my answer will depend on your yes or no response...