the right religion

[Curious George]

2+2 is unquestionably equals 4. There's no reason why should anybody question that, except maybe for the pure ability of "false" doubt.

Ahh but to state 2+2=4 you must rely on the fundamental rules of logic. These are questioned and doubted. Consequently, even simple concepts such as these are questioned and doubted.

 

[confused453]

Ahh but to state 2+2=4 you must rely on the fundamental rules of logic. These are questioned and doubted. Consequently, even simple concepts such as these are questioned and doubted.

You can also rely on real life experience. If you go to the gaming arcade where the game you want to play needs 4 coins, but you only got 2 coins. Your friend comes in with lots of coins. If you borrow 2 coins from your friend, you'll have the 4 coins needed to play the game. No matter how much you question, doubt, or what you believe in, if you don't feed the 4 coins to the arcade machine, the game will not start.

 

[Curious George]

You can also rely on real life experience. If you go to the gaming arcade where the game you want to play needs 4 coins, but you only got 2 coins. Your friend comes in with lots of coins. If you borrow 2 coins from your friend, you'll have the 4 coins needed to play the game. No matter how much you question, doubt, or what you believe in, if you don't feed the 4 coins to the arcade machine, the game will not start.

Ahh, so you agree that just because people question or doubt truth does not mean that it is false. And what you now suggest, my friend, is counter to your original post with which I disputed.

 

[confused453]

Ahh, so you agree that just because people question or doubt truth does not mean that it is false. And what you now suggest, my friend, is counter to your original post with which I disputed.

Questioning truth doesn't make sense. People question unknown, unproven, or undiscovered.

2+2=4 is a fact.
The arcade machine needs 4 coins to start, is a fact.
Religion is not based on facts.

 

[Curious George]

Questioning truth doesn't make sense. People question unknown, unproven, or undiscovered.

2+2=4 is a fact.
The arcade machine needs 4 coins to start, is a fact.
Religion is not based on facts.

Would you agree or disagree that people question the fundamental rules of logic?

If no than I can point you in the direction of people doing so and you would hopefully then agree.

Thus if people question and doubt the only way to have necessity of concepts then not only to they question whether 2+2=4 but also whether 2 is 2 or not. I am not saying I question this. I am saying people do. You suggested that religion that questioned and doubted by people is false. From this we derive that something questioned and doubted by people is by your logic false. I suggested that even truth can be questioned and doubted by people, thus by your reasoning making it false. Now assuming you and I agree on the fundamental rules of logic, this shows a contradiction to your statement.

 

[Nakosis]

Then we should be able to say the opposite. One doesn't choose not to believe in God, they just have not come to know it is true because God has not provided that knowledge.

So, if someone does not believe in God, its okay because that's God's fault?

Did you ever have a rock tumbler when you were a kid?

You start with rough rocks and course grit. The rocks and grit grind into each other to round off the rough edges. Eventually as the edges round off you remove the old grit and add a finer grit. Eventually using a very, very fine grit to give the stone a smooth and shiny finish.

I believe our spirit is the stone and suffering the grit. We grind into each other slowly wearing off the rough edges. Some spirits are very course and very hard. They take longer to wear away the rough edges. However when a spirit is ready it will be moved to finer grit.

All spirits are being polished, some take longer, more processing. At some point in the processing the grit seems to be the holy spirit and an awareness of God. Doesn't mean the process is finished it just means it is time to add a finer grit.

I don't know when a spirit is ready for finer grit. I have to trust God knows. However I suspect us, people grinding into each other is part of the process.

So welcome to the grind. I imagine if the rocks in the tumbler had self awareness the process would not be all that comfortable for them either.

To answer your last question, is it God's fault? Maybe, I don't know. I'm not sure what God had to work with when he started.

 

[waitasec]

what do people not question or doubt?

what time of day it is
if it's raining or not
math
gravity
the moon, sun and sky
if one has curly or straight hair
if one is male or female
steps, sidewalks, the name of a street, the location of a park
language
hydrogen oxygen carbon
my goodness i can go on all day

do you think objective empirical evidence is not possible?

 

[waitasec]

perhaps that was unfair of me. However, I asked it of you because it would only require one example of something people didn't question for me to agree that I was wrong. I thought if you had one on the top of your mind that would be the shortest route to complete this facet of the discussion. However, I do realize that even were you to start listing examples, If I were able to illustrate how people do question those examples then the discussion would not end because in the end I would not have proved my assertion. Rather I would have just proved my assertion held true for your examples.

pick one i gave you plenty.

accepting that you might have just been making a joke by questioning and doubting my statement I will nonetheless proceed as if your remark was in all earnestness.

objective empirical evidence is possible and in fact all around us.

If we breakdown what we think we know we realize that we need the rules of logic to know anything. These rules of logic are continually doubte However assuming the rules of logic we are left with faith and observation.

sure, maybe that says something about their logic or lack thereof

Certainly faith is questioned. But, I hold that so to is observation. everything from sensory input to memory is doubted and questioned.

really so if you were to stab me with a sharp knife, i am only thinking i got wounded? interesting.

One example of a people who question everything are people who would suggest that the real world is simply an illusion and it is only in our dream states that we actually approach any reality.

then we call those people dreamers....for a reason....

 

[Curious George]

pick one i gave you plenty.

...

then we call those people dreamers....for a reason....

And there you go- we may call them dreamers, hell some may lack all sense of logic. But that doesn't change the simple fact that there are indeed people out there questioning and doubting everything. They could be the most foolish people around, we could say horrible things about them and they would never know or care, but they are alive and they are questioning and doubting.

I am sure some kid somewhere just saw the matrix right now and is busy thinking to him/herself "there is no spoon"

elsewhere there is an argument going on where someone is insisting that it is possible for X to be X and not be X simultaneously

and still somewhere else someone is saying "what if C-A-T really spelled dog"

well what can I say: "That's deep Ogre."

It doesn't matter whether they are right or wrong. But people as absurd as you or I may think it is really do question and doubt everything. The whole point to this is simply to illustrate how people questioning and doubting truth does not make that truth a falsity as was implied by confused453

 

[kjw47]

This is false most mainstream Christian doctrines say that Heaven will be on earth and the New Jerusalem will be the capitol. In fact I do not know one that doesn't even though I am sure a few do. This 99% stuff does you no credit.



I never claimed there are more than one. Maybe your 1% is the false one.

Then why did Paul (a great Christian by any standard and who knew the law better than me and you combined) say he was the worst of sinners. Do you realise that two denominations do not equal two religions no more than two scientist who disagree about a single law practice two fields of study?

You do realise than just making up a percentile of which you have no possible of knowing is not a fact? Since 99% is not ever mentioned in the bible it seems you are preaching a false non biblical doctrine. Are you holyness?

Paul obviously stopped doing all of the gross sins mentioned in Gods word--In his past he was a very bad sinner--but he put on the new personality( born again) and lived to do Gods will, which is shown over and over in the nt.
I didnt make up a percentile--have you ever read the bible? Noahs day--8 human beings knew God and did his will = 99% mislead--the israelites kept falling away serving false gods= 99% mislead--Jesus,Apostles,Christians all murdered = 99% mislead-- today= 99% mislead. Mislead by the tactics satan has used from the early days because they work--He transforms into an angel of light and poses as god in all false religions, using love. But misleading the majority to break Gods #1 commandment on a daily basis. Some dont even believe in a God.
Show me where God word says heaven will be on earth or are your own words applied here about making things up not in the bible?

 

[confused453]

Would you agree or disagree that people question the fundamental rules of logic?

People question everything, to find the truth. When the truth is known, there's no longer a reason to question.

Thus if people question and doubt the only way to have necessity of concepts then not only to they question whether 2+2=4 but also whether 2 is 2 or not. I am not saying I question this. I am saying people do. You suggested that religion that questioned and doubted by people is false. From this we derive that something questioned and doubted by people is by your logic false. I suggested that even truth can be questioned and doubted by people, thus by your reasoning making it false. Now assuming you and I agree on the fundamental rules of logic, this shows a contradiction to your statement.

The problem with many religions is that people make claims, no matter how logical those claims are, using illogical terminology, like god being outside of time/space/universe, for example, or god being everyhwere, or universe exists because god created it.

If I'd tell you that I'm growing apples using seeds from another galaxy, which were transported by unicorns, in their invisible space ships. These apples cure fever when eaten. Would you believe everything in that story?

 

[Curious George]

People question everything, to find the truth. When the truth is known, there's no longer a reason to question.



The problem with many religions is that people make claims, no matter how logical those claims are, using illogical terminology, like god being outside of time/space/universe, for example, or god being everyhwere, or universe exists because god created it.

If I'd tell you that I'm growing apples using seeds from another galaxy, which were transported by unicorns, in their invisible space ships. These apples cure fever when eaten. Would you believe everything in that story?

No, but just because I question or doubt it does not make it false. What makes it false is the lack of truth. question and doubt do not correlate to truth or falsity.

 

[confused453]

No, but just because I question or doubt it does not make it false. What makes it false is the lack of truth. question and doubt do not correlate to truth or falsity.

If it were really true, I'd call you to come and meet those space unicorns, and maybe take a ride on a space ship across the galaxy... But since, I'm not going to do this, because I just invented the story. So you were right not to believe in it.

But how do we verify religious claims about supernatural? Should we just accept it? What makes people choose between Christian, Islamic, Jewish god, Greek gods, Norse gods, etc..? Is it the pretty words in the story books? Or the family influence?

 

[Curious George]

If it were really true, I'd call you to come and meet those space unicorns, and maybe take a ride on a space ship across the galaxy... But since, I'm not going to do this, because I just invented the story. So you were right not to believe in it.

But how do we verify religious claims about supernatural? Should we just accept it? What makes people choose between Christian, Islamic, Jewish god, Greek gods, Norse gods, etc..? Is it the pretty words in the story books? Or the family influence?

No but just because we doubt or question it does not necessarily make any of these claims untrue. I would suggest that we can verify only to a limited ability any claims these religions make and to do this we need to understand what claims those religions are making. From there we can show how those claims are contradictory to other claims within a religion. The funny thing about religion is that they can retract to a more and more abstract concept until there is nothing left that is verifiable. Again, that doesn't make what they say false just unverifiable. Though I know it is not polite I can from here only offer another question. How are we to react to people who talk about ghosts? They are sure they experienced something but we cannot always verify or explain what they saw. Does that mean we should believe in ghosts? Or should we suggest that those people are crazy? I wouldn't suggest either route. Rather, I would suggest we keep an open mind because maybe they are correct, maybe they are delusional, or maybe there is a whole different explanation. Nonetheless, there is much wisdom and connection within the various religions, and I have never found learning to be a bad thing, even if all we learn is a little more about the practitioners of those religions.

 

[waitasec]

And there you go- we may call them dreamers, hell some may lack all sense of logic. But that doesn't change the simple fact that there are indeed people out there questioning and doubting everything.

no not everything.
that is a wide brush stroke my friend.

if we decided to meet at a particular coffee house at 7pm would either one of us be doubting what 7pm meant or which coffee house to meet at?
no. objective empirical evidence is real...

 

[Curious George]

no not everything.
that is a wide brush stroke my friend.

if we decided to meet at a particular coffee house at 7pm would either one of us be doubting what 7pm meant or which coffee house to meet at?
no. objective empirical evidence is real...

Just because you or I do not question something does not meant that all people don't question something.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Paul obviously stopped doing all of the gross sins mentioned in Gods word--In his past he was a very bad sinner-

The only obvious thing about Paul was that he got to write his own history. He would not have portrayed himself as an active sinner and yet hope to be the leader after Jesus. He likely lied.
If he went on and on about what a sinner he was, and often in the present tense, it's logically obvious he was not writing about everything he did.

 

[Nakosis]

And there you go- we may call them dreamers, hell some may lack all sense of logic. But that doesn't change the simple fact that there are indeed people out there questioning and doubting everything. They could be the most foolish people around, we could say horrible things about them and they would never know or care, but they are alive and they are questioning and doubting.

I am sure some kid somewhere just saw the matrix right now and is busy thinking to him/herself "there is no spoon"

elsewhere there is an argument going on where someone is insisting that it is possible for X to be X and not be X simultaneously

and still somewhere else someone is saying "what if C-A-T really spelled dog"

well what can I say: "That's deep Ogre."

It doesn't matter whether they are right or wrong. But people as absurd as you or I may think it is really do question and doubt everything. The whole point to this is simply to illustrate how people questioning and doubting truth does not make that truth a falsity as was implied by confused453

So you're saying spiritual folks are skeptics?

 

[waitasec]

Just because you or I do not question something does not meant that all people don't question something.

now you are changing your statement.

But that doesn't change the simple fact that there are indeed people out there questioning and doubting everything.

you said EVERYTHING. you stand corrected.

 

[Nakosis]

Just because you or I do not question something does not meant that all people don't question something.

I tend to think in terms of probabilities. I'm never 100% certain of anything so there's always room to doubt and question.

In many cases the probability is so high or low I act with certainty. That doesn't mean I'm going to immediately reject the apparent reality of something I happen to be experiencing just because doesn't fit my predictions about reality.

One experiences what they experience. That doesn't mean explaining what we experience is always simple. Sometimes a person doesn't have the capacity or knowledge to arrive at a correct explanation. I suspect everyone does the best they can with what they have.

Education and experience seem helpful but someone who is already certain about the truth tends to reject anything which attacks that certainty.

Fundamental logic, objective reality...