the right religion

[Yanni]

I think God told our people at Mount Sinai to respect history.

Really? Where does it say that in the Torah? And how am I not "respecting" history?

 

[Mark2020]

Have you read the Qur'an, my friend? A careful reading of the text and the implications of the text should answer this.

The alleged alterations were in effect at the time of Muhammad's "revelations". That is part of the reason for his "revelations" - to set the record straight, one last time before Judgment Day.

This reference is from Muhammad Asad's English translation and is speaking of the Injil, a purely Muslim concept, as originally revealed to Jesus.


My time here is limited. Perhaps you could rephrase your concerns rather than have me go through the thread.

There is no impication that the teaching of the bible are in quran. Not as far as I know, if you have an aya supporting your claim, give it to me.

The verse that you give is about the torah, not bible. Anyway the translation that you quoted is not accurate, which is intentional, I believe.
In arabic:
وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَى آثَارِهِمْ بِعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الإِنْجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِلْمُتَّقِينَ (46)

No implication to "still remained "

From

Sahih International
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
"still remained " is added by the unfaithful translator.
It doesn't even explain the meaning, nor is based on arabic tafsears/explanations on quran.

This is an arabic site containing tafsear ibn katheer, which is acknowleged by Saudia arbia minstry of islamic affairs and Egypt's alazhar:
quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=11&Page=1
" بِعِيسَى اِبْن مَرْيَم مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْن يَدَيْهِ مِنْ التَّوْرَاة" أَيْ مُؤْمِنًا بِهَا حَاكِمًا بِمَا فِيهَا "
And from Al tabari's explanation:
" ومصدقًا لما بين يديه "، يقول: أوحينا إليه ذلك وأنـزلناه إليه بتصديق ما كان قبله من كتب الله التي كان أنـزلها على كل أمة أُنـزل إلى نبيِّها كتاب للعمل بما أنـزل إلى نبيهم في ذلك الكتاب، من تحليل ما حلّل، وتحريم ما حرّم

There is no implication what so ever to the meaning of "remaining" or anything lost.
This site too has 5 explanations including ibn kathers:
qurancomplex.org/Quran/tafseer/Tafseer.asp?l=arb&t=katheer&nSora=5&nAya=46#5_46

No implication to the added "still remained " even in the explanations.

Now who is doing the 'altering'?
​

 

[Mark2020]

Absolutely not. The Messiah will be a normal human being born from a human father and mother who will be a descendent of the Davidic line (from his "human father," because tribal affiliation follows the father), and he will fulfill his mission that God commands him, which basically is to unite the entire world under One God and to end all war and suffering and to spread the light of Torah throughout the world.

Thanks for your reply, but what about this verse:
Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)


6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isn't Mihgty God in hebrew 'eel gibbor', where eel means God?
And the word 'everlasting' too, can it imply other than God?

 

[Mark2020]

That's your response to my answers? Seriously? You're not actually going to address my points? Or, if you somehow find them silly, you're not going to explain how they're silly, which I don't understand?

Alright.
Thats answering a question with another question in your previous post.
Distorting a written book is something material to which proofs could be given. At least approximately when did it started, in which place, how did it affect all the bibles/torahs in the world then, (including the manuscripts that were later found), copies of the alledged gradual changes, traces of the original texts... For books that are widely spread (on any scale) that get altered, there should be material proof given.
As for the pharisees that's not as material, documented or evident as a book that is claimed to be changed on such a scale.

Quote:
The claim is that the original contents are contained in the Qur'an.

Give proof.

I still am waiting for a convincing response.
Again
According to muslims:
When/where/who distorted the bible ?
And I'll add 'why'?

 

[England my lionheart]

56 pages of responses, and like every other religious forum I've been to; bickering. My question, if it has been approached, is Atheism isn't a religion. Nor is it a belief. Does that mean it's exempt from the logic of this thread? Or must a religion be the only answer?

Logic and religion are like oil and water IMO,some religions claim to be the right one but none can prove they are,i doubt religion is the answer to anything except for the religious

 

[Yanni]

Thanks for your reply, but what about this verse:
Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)


6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isn't Mihgty God in hebrew 'eel gibbor', where eel means God?
And the word 'everlasting' too, can it imply other than God?

Your making a mistake. Your translation is incorrect. The proper translation is as follows: (It is actually Verse 5, not 6) "For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Woundrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father, called his name Sar-shalom [Prince of Peace]." NOTE the "has" in bold, which connotes something that already happened, and the SEMI-COLON between "shoulder" and "the Wondrous Adviser." This woundrous salvation took place in the days of the child of Ahaz, the righteous King Hezekiah, whom God - the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father - called "Prince of Peace." Unfortunately, proponents of Jesus being referred to by the prophets have found various passages that best fit their description of Jesus and when writing the Bible, mistranslated those passages/versus to suit their best interests. One example is the notion that the word "Naamah" in the prophets means "virgin," when in reality, the word means "a young woman."

 

[Riverwolf]

Alright.
Thats answering a question with another question in your previous post.
Distorting a written book is something material to which proofs could be given. At least approximately when did it started, in which place, how did it affect all the bibles/torahs in the world then, (including the manuscripts that were later found), copies of the alledged gradual changes, traces of the original texts... For books that are widely spread (on any scale) that get altered, there should be material proof given.

Despite the fact that even now we have very little in the way of old manuscripts?

As for the pharisees that's not as material, documented or evident as a book that is claimed to be changed on such a scale.

Give proof.

I'm just repeating the claim, and saying that it's a reasonable to claim.

When/where/who distorted the bible ?

Don't know, and it doesn't really matter.

And I'll add 'why'?

How about the latest post by Yanni:

Unfortunately, proponents of Jesus being referred to by the prophets have found various passages that best fit their description of Jesus and when writing the Bible, mistranslated those passages/versus to suit their best interests.

While exact details were not given (and I don't frankly see why they'd need to be, seeing as there's blatant contradictions and errors in the Bible), motivation could have been power, misunderstanding, etc.

 

[islam abduallah]

I personally see applying things as they are "deserved" as petty. An incarnation of God trying to present a certain teaching may play the deserve game(and has done so in the past), but not God Supreme. Besides, there is NO crime worth an eternity in Hell, so it is wholly unjust.

there's only one crime which deserved eternally hell which is to make a partner with him, he had created you and you worship another body and claim that he who gave you all graces, i'll post for you some verses and i'd like to know how do you understand it
1- If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers, But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars" 6:27-28
2- [For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back, That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected." 23:99-100
really i advise you to read the whole 2 chapters (23,6) completely

No just God would allow such a thing. It is taught that baby Krishna was targeted by his evil uncle to be killed, and sent a witch to kill him. She smeared poison over her breasts and proceeded to breastfeed him under the guidance of a nanny. But instead of dying, He sucked the life out of her. But He granted the witch salvation, because she had approached Him in a motherly way. While I don't worship Krishna specifically, that is an illustration of how God would bend the rules to save even the worst of sinners. Heck, even when He finally killed his murderous uncle, He granted him salvation, because he was constantly focused on Him, even though as an enemy.

if you read about Prophet Mohamed's life, you will see how he was full of mercy and forgivness towards who hurt and harm him all of his life,also i'd like to add, Allah could forgive any sin except two, to make partner with him, and any other sin related to another human till he forgives, like if you insult me, allah will not forgive that sin till i forgave you

Wisdom is the guiding hand of all actions. In order for God to be just, He'd first have to be wise. Wisdom must come before justice, or else there will be no true justice.

agree

What does that have to do with hell? I've heard that story several times, and rather enjoy it. There's similar stories in my tradition, as well.

who denys the hell are depicting a certain view of the god's action like that man who thought that the god will come to save him by himself and refused any other way.

Scriptures, yes, but also common sense, personal experience and observations, etc.

common sense is different from a person to another, so it's not right norm, me and you we will not reach any fact if we debate based on our common sense.
let's focus more on the scriptures

The Scriptures are just guidebooks; they are fallible and always have been. I've never read a perfect Scripture in my life. But this makes sense; they are written by men. They are recording what their experiences are as best as they are able to, which is the reason for the contradictions. Even still, the authors' own biases still creep into the Scriptures. Thus, it falls onto us to use our wisdom-guided intelligence to determine what is Truth and what is not.

let me say that you have been never read a perfect scripture because you still don't read the quran, because the quran isn't a word of man it's a word of god, many of non muslims thought that we believe that quran is mohamed's experience, and indeed that's wrong, if it's so it's not from the creator so we will not follow a word of man like us,

Besides, I could ask you the same thing.

the answer:_
the god who told me that in the quran as i told we believe that it's the word of god not the word of Muhamed.

The Qur'an teaches that Allah does not incarnate and the only reason I've ever seen for this is because it's "beneath him." This makes absolutely no sense to me, as there is nothing that is above or beneath God. How could there be?

honestly i didn't understand anything from that

 

[islam abduallah]

Nope. After all, suppose all four testified that it wasn't a fabrication. However, suppose all four of these people were in on trying to make this poor woman look bad, and testify falsely

yuo know, it's really too difficult to be happened, you know why? in islam there are some conditions must be in his morals as a person, it must be known that this man is devout, religious, honest, havent been seen lied before, trusted, clever at his job, plus all of that he will swear before his tstimony, plus that it must not be there is any relation between them and the woman, not relatives, or colleauges
i don't think that 4 witnesses have the above conditions could agree to make this poor woman look bad, and testify falsely, it's really may couldn't happen
also, if we think like that we will not use any evidence against any offender, as we can say that the fingerprints expert may be lier and want to jail an innocent instead of the right criminal

All of these points could easily be argued to the death, and I'm not the expert in it. However, someone more familiar with these cultures may do better. I'm not a part of mainstream pop culture, so I don't know what goes on there.

However, believe me when I say that, in terms of keeping relationships strong, pornography is one of the least of their problems. I'd blame it more on the fact that we're not really taught how to keep a family together over here; we have to figure it out for ourselves. Plus, those teens who are rebelling and having sex all the time typically come from very authoritarian households, and are rebelling against such oppression.

So, yeah, relationship problems in the west are FAR more complicated than porn. Correlation does not automatically equal causation.

So I stand by my statement that the courts have no place in peoples' personal lives

my dear, the islam isn't just a religion like any other religion, islam is a state and belief, and it ruled all of our lives, and we believe that it's the solution for all the humanity problems
i also want to add that the above mentioned speech about using the modern technology to prove adultery is only used for critical case to aid in another court or upon asking of the husband or wife to prove adutery , so only for the real mandatory reasons but the original case is the witnesses see the case by their eyes, so that i can't imagine that a couple could do sex in an islamic community and they don't take enough precautions that allow 4 honest, devout, never lied witnesses see them, i couldn't imagine that and no clear mind could imagine that, i'm not seeing that we are ideal like before or that there's no adultery here but it's not practised in streets in public, and who do that, really deserve to be punished as they are working to learn people immoiral acts
i'd like to add that for 10 years of that law during the prophet's mohamed's life this law had never been applied except for 2 times, and the adulters who come by themselves and ask the prophet to apply the law upon them to clean them from that immoral sin, and the prophet tried to ask them to go and repent but they insisting on applying the law on themselves, this is the value of religion and how it encourages people to repent just for the sake of god, not because any body watch them

 

[islam abduallah]

Hello islam
I always hear from muslims that christians 'distorted' the bible. But neither they give any proof nor they show the original one nor when was it distorted. I find this non reasonable.

hi mark, if you review my posts with Mrs. Pegg, you can find some evidences and while further argument you will find more

 

[islam abduallah]

Ok, so you say that Jesus quoted from the 'right' Torah. Do you know that Jesus used the Greek Septuagint manuscript of Hebrew scriptures? And do you know that we still have that today?

no he didn't it was the god who revealed to him that it was written in the torah (right one) like what allah did with prophet mohamed when he told him "And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers" 5:45

I promise you that the idea the Torah is distorted is not in harmony with reality.

indeed, it's too homigenious

I dont think you understand enough about the manuscripts of the scriptures, about how they were produced, how they were copied and how they were protected. The Jewish scribes were absolutely meticulous when it come to copying their manuscripts. And there are so many of them available today that, when compared, the only difference is in how the alphabet changed over time and vowel points etc over the centuries.

a right word from the god should challenge all of that barriers,

Jesus did not have a human father, he was a product of Gods holy spirit upon the virgin Mary

adam
.

So Adams imperfection did not pass onto Jesus...he was the only man besides Adam to be born perfect

disagree the sin isn't an inherit .

Abraham, Moses, the prophets...they were all imperfect men because they were all decedents of Adam,

disagree

just as I am and you are.

agree, we are full of sins

Any man who has died proves he is imperfect because death is the punishment God gave to Adam for his sin.

death isn't punishment, death is a transient life for the eternally life

Now if God viewed women as unclean, there is no way he would have used a woman to bring his son into the world. He could have created him in the same way he created Adam... but he doesnt view women as unclean... he veiws our 'sinful condition' as unclean. Men and women are equal in Gods eyes with regard to sin...we both die at Gods command. And if men were the ones to bring children to birth, then the laws about menstruation would have applied to them because it is the process that brings children into the world which has been corrupted and is currently unclean

my dear again the torah itself say it's the women herself which is unclean "When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.

20 “‘Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean. 21 Anyone who touches her bed will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 22 Anyone who touches anything she sits on will be unclean; they must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening. 23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, they will be unclean till evening. 24 “‘If a man has sexual relations with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean"

all the verses are talking about women herself how then you say that your god doesn't consider the woman as unclean, also he did with the man at the first of the chapter, the god considers us as unclean because something out of our hands.

 

[islam abduallah]

56 pages of responses, and like every other religious forum I've been to; bickering. My question, if it has been approached, is Atheism isn't a religion. Nor is it a belief. Does that mean it's exempt from the logic of this thread? Or must a religion be the only answer?

i consider athiesm as a belief, so you can ask

 

[otokage007]

All religions are wrong to many people, so I suggest you just follow which you want or either create one yourself

edit: I forgot to give you the best option!: stop being religious and become atheist, we have cookies.

 

[jelly]

i consider athiesm as a belief, so you can ask

Does Allah represent all gods?

 

[Riverwolf]

there's only one crime which deserved eternally hell which is to make a partner with him,

I'm afraid that's one of the most petty things that could warrant any sort of punishment. It makes God look like an overprotective, insecure parent.

he had created you and you worship another body and claim that he who gave you all graces,

There is nothing that is not God. There is no "another" to God; he is One without a second. This is what the Vedas teach.

My purpose in saying this is that these are two different mindsets as to what God is like, and to an outside, unbiased observer, both have equal merit.

i'll post for you some verses and i'd like to know how do you understand it
1- If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers, But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars" 6:27-28

This isn't necessarily true.

2- [For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back, That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected." 23:99-100
really i advise you to read the whole 2 chapters (23,6) completely

Again, not necessarily true.

if you read about Prophet Mohamed's life, you will see how he was full of mercy and forgivness towards who hurt and harm him all of his life,also i'd like to add, Allah could forgive any sin except two, to make partner with him, and any other sin related to another human till he forgives, like if you insult me, allah will not forgive that sin till i forgave you

Even one unforgivable sin is too many. But the latter one kind of makes sense, but I would argue that there is no heaven if there is no absolute forgiveness.

who denys the hell are depicting a certain view of the god's action like that man who thought that the god will come to save him by himself and refused any other way.

But I could argue that hell is the false depiction of God.

common sense is different from a person to another, so it's not right norm, me and you we will not reach any fact if we debate based on our common sense.
let's focus more on the scriptures

True common sense is universal. We both would agree that murder and theft are bad, and we would agree as to the practical reasons why they're bad.

let me say that you have been never read a perfect scripture because you still don't read the quran, because the quran isn't a word of man it's a word of god, many of non muslims thought that we believe that quran is mohamed's experience, and indeed that's wrong, if it's so it's not from the creator so we will not follow a word of man like us,

I've read bits of the Qur'an, and parts of it impress me, while others don't. I will read it in its entirety eventually, but I've already seen imperfections in it.

the answer:_
the god who told me that in the quran as i told we believe that it's the word of god not the word of Muhamed.

Circular logic: the Qur'an is true because God told me through the Qur'an. That's like if I said that every word of the Vedas is perfect because God wrote it, which I know because the Vedas say so. This doesn't logically work.

 

[Riverwolf]

yuo know, it's really too difficult to be happened, you know why? in islam there are some conditions must be in his morals as a person, it must be known that this man is devout, religious, honest, havent been seen lied before, trusted, clever at his job, plus all of that he will swear before his tstimony, plus that it must not be there is any relation between them and the woman, not relatives, or colleauges
i don't think that 4 witnesses have the above conditions could agree to make this poor woman look bad, and testify falsely, it's really may couldn't happen

You'd be surprised. There are people in the world who lie; the Qur'an has spoken of those unbelievers who pretend to believe. Heck, that's the problem with the "swearing by Allah's name four times"; to unbelievers, the name of Allah has no power, and thus they can swear a hundred times by His name and still be lying.

also, if we think like that we will not use any evidence against any offender, as we can say that the fingerprints expert may be lier and want to jail an innocent instead of the right criminal

Which is always going to be a problem. The point is, there IS no perfect justice system, and the one I've seen from the Qur'an suffers from the same problems, and other problems, as others. A perfect justice system should be foolproof, with no chance of the innocent getting jailed and no chance of the guilty going free. But there's no such justice system in the world.

Oh, and BTW, we have lie detectors that are 99% accurate. ^_^

my dear, the islam isn't just a religion like any other religion, islam is a state and belief, and it ruled all of our lives, and we believe that it's the solution for all the humanity problems

I could say the same about Hinduism.

i also want to add that the above mentioned speech about using the modern technology to prove adultery is only used for critical case to aid in another court or upon asking of the husband or wife to prove adutery , so only for the real mandatory reasons but the original case is the witnesses see the case by their eyes, so that i can't imagine that a couple could do sex in an islamic community and they don't take enough precautions that allow 4 honest, devout, never lied witnesses see them, i couldn't imagine that and no clear mind could imagine that, i'm not seeing that we are ideal like before or that there's no adultery here but it's not practised in streets in public, and who do that, really deserve to be punished as they are working to learn people immoiral acts

No, they're not. They're just slaves to their sex drives, and are having marital problems that they never solved.

i'd like to add that for 10 years of that law during the prophet's mohamed's life this law had never been applied except for 2 times, and the adulters who come by themselves and ask the prophet to apply the law upon them to clean them from that immoral sin, and the prophet tried to ask them to go and repent but they insisting on applying the law on themselves, this is the value of religion and how it encourages people to repent just for the sake of god, not because any body watch them

Good for them. But how many people do you know would actually do that? Especially considering too many Islamic states have the death penalty for adultery. Fear of death is one of our strongest instincts, and very few people who can overcome it.

 

[Draka]

All religions are wrong to many people, so I suggest you just follow which you want or either create one yourself

edit: I forgot to give you the best option!: stop being religious and become atheist, we have cookies.

psh! I have chocolate cupcakes a mere 5 ft away from me. And the ability and ingredients to make brownies, cookie bars, and just about any other baked goods I feel like making just sitting in my kitchen. I got it like that.

 

[Riverwolf]

All religions are wrong to many people, so I suggest you just follow which you want or either create one yourself

edit: I forgot to give you the best option!: stop being religious and become atheist, we have cookies.

Bah! The prasada sweets given after Puja beat out every cookie I've ever had.

 

[Pegg]

no he didn't it was the god who revealed to him that it was written in the torah (right one) like what allah did with prophet mohamed when he told him "And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers" 5:45

Ok, well i'll just ask you to point out the parts of the Torah & Gospel that Mohammad was referring to when he said that it was changed. Can you provide the references and proofs that the scriptures were changed. That means you will need to show what they were originally, and what they were later changed to.

Are you able to at least provide that much?

 

[atanu]

let me say that you have been never read a perfect scripture because you still don't read the quran, because the quran isn't a word of man it's a word of god, many of non muslims thought that we believe that quran is mohamed's experience, and indeed that's wrong, if it's so it's not from the creator so we will not follow a word of man like us,
the answer:_
the god who told me that in the quran as i told we believe that it's the word of god not the word of Muhamed.

and we believe that it's the solution for all the humanity problems[/COLOR]

islam

Although you have not answered any of my earlier questions, i gatecrash here.

I disagree with RW that no scipture is perfect. To us, the scripture is embodied Word of the Supreme and is heard by the perfect sages. Most HIndus will also not contest that Torah, Bible, or Koran are revealed.

But your claims rattle more. Only Koran is perfect? Only Islam is solution for all problems of humanity?

May I respectfully ask you why the muslims split into two sects right after Muhammad's passing away, if they had everything perfect going on?