The Role of Women in establishing Peace

[oldbadger]

There is no Baha'i law prohibiting women from serving in the armed forces or Baha'i men or from going to war. Also, women are permitted to and do serve on Local Spiritual Assemblies and National Spiritual Assemblies and will also serve on them when they become Local and National Houses of Justice.

We just don't know at this moment why they are exempt from the Universal House of Justice. Abdul-Bahá'í has even said women are the stronger sex in many ways and also superior to men in some ways so if anything He exalts them but it was the command of Baha'u'llah which said only men could serve on the Universal House of Justice.

I can only assume it has something to do with some functions of the Universal House of Justice which are not present in the National and Local Houses because women serve on them without restrictions.

I was only mentioning what Abdul Baha wrote, and which is included in the Paris talks. If that doesn't count then it doesn't count, but that exclusion of his communication could then be used in debate, in the event that anybody quotes Abdul Baha as a 'ruing'.... Got it?

One useful aspect of your post (for me) is that you have acknowledged that in a Bahai World LSAs would become LHJs, and this might bring credence to another member who has been challenging this.

 

[oldbadger]

Dear Old Badger

In one of the Baha’u’llahs early works called the Hidden words He talks about Justice and how important it is to be able to think independently and free from the influence of others.

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

In that spirit I had hoped you would consider the verses mentioned and what YOU thought they meant.

Anyway, I am the Baha’i and you have asked me about my understanding of it. Happy to oblige! If you have something to teach me about the Baha'i Faith then very good

I don't set out to teach, it was only that you challenged a point of mine that I knew was correct.
A Bahai has already confirmed that in a Bahai World LSAs would become (revert to, really) LHJs. Post 179

What you have provided appears to me is an excerpt from a paper written by a Juan Cole that includes references to Baha’u’llah’s work The Kitab-i-Aqdas or Most Holy Book. The paper was written in 1996 the same year he resigned from the Baha’i Faith. He was disaffected by the Baha’i Faith and held views contrary to Baha’i administration, some of which feature in this paper. I wonder if this is where this idea about differing roles of men and women on Local and National Spiritual Assemblies comes from?

Does this mean that his every sentence becomes a lie?
Does this mean that his quotes and referrals to translations are deceptions?
Strangely, his mention of LHJs has been supported by a Bahai member in post 179.
A dissaffected Bahai can still be listened to by the people, it is only Bahais who should distance themselves from same.
On the side, I wonder if non-Bahais can be marked as a kind of dissaffected?

The other matter to note is that Local and National Spiritual Assemblies will be termed (secondary) Houses of Justice and acquire more extensive functions, as the Baha’i Faith becomes better known. However to the best of my knowledge they will continue to be composed of both men and women and there will be no special functions assigned to either men or women. I am familiar with key writings in this area but it has been a while since I've considered them in depth.

Yes, but you challenged all this earlier, which imo initiated this by-product debate about them. What I wrote was correct.

Although I had wanted to keep posts related to the equality of men and woman as a prerequisite for world peace I see this an important aspect of the Baha'i Faith you want to discuss so go for it. I really have nothing to hide and do not believe the Baha'i Faith does either.

No. I wanted to show one other (any other) example of a situation where men took responsibility alone, and Kitab i Aqdas 101 was a good example. By telling me that it only refrerred to the UHJ that initiated a side debate about the future existence of LHJs. In 17 years you had not heard of them.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't set out to teach, it was only that you challenged a point of mine that I knew was correct.
A Bahai has already confirmed that in a Bahai World LSAs would become

I had thought we were debating whether or not there were various functions or duties that would be carried out by males on Local and National Spiritual Assemblies/Local and National House of Justices as per your post #115 and #137

........ but various functions, even at local and national house-of-justice levels will be carried out by males, as stipulated in the Bahai writings.

Remember?

Male members of LHJs and NHJs in a Bahai World will have duties in connection with various aspects of government and supervision...... one example to start you off:-

This one too!

Of course Local and National Spiritual Assemblies will become Houses of Justice in the future. They will be composed of elected men and women but to my knowledge there will be no special duties for men only. They will not be like the Universal House of Justice that of course is, and will be composed of all men.

Does this mean that his every sentence becomes a lie?
Does this mean that his quotes and referrals to translations are deceptions?

Of course not, but it may give a misleading or distorted view of the Baha'i Faith.

A dissaffected Bahai can still be listened to by the people, it is only Bahais who should distance themselves from same.

On the side, I wonder if non-Bahais can be marked as a kind of dissaffected?

There is nothing stopping Baha'is associating with disaffected Baha'is or ex-Baha'is such as Juan Cole.

I'm married to a non-Baha'i. We have two teenage children. She's not disaffected and participates in many Baha'i activities. Being a member of a religious community is just not a priority in her life currently. No problem

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was only mentioning what Abdul Baha wrote, and which is included in the Paris talks. If that doesn't count then it doesn't count, but that exclusion of his communication could then be used in debate, in the event that anybody quotes Abdul Baha as a 'ruing'.... Got it?

One useful aspect of your post (for me) is that you have acknowledged that in a Bahai World LSAs would become LHJs, and this might bring credence to another member who has been challenging this.

Yes I read that. They are exempt as in not obligated but not forbidden if they wish to fight in a war. However men are obligated.

Here's that quote about LSA's and NSA's being future Houses of Justice but with women representation.

“That the Spiritual Assemblies of today will be replaced in time by the Houses of Justice, and are to all intents and purposes identical and not separate bodies, is abundantly confirmed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá Himself. He has in fact in a Tablet addressed to the members of the first Chicago Spiritual Assembly, the first elected Bahá'í body instituted in the United States, referred to them as the members of the "House of Justice" for that city, and has thus with His own pen established beyond any doubt the identity of the present Bahá'í Spiritual Assemblies with the Houses of Justice referred to by Bahá'u'lláh. For reasons which are not difficult to discover, it has been found advisable to bestow upon the elected representatives of Bahá'í communities throughout the world the temporary appellation of Spiritual Assemblies, a term which, as the position and aims of the Bahá'í Faith are better understood and more fully recognized, will gradually be superseded by the permanent and more appropriate designation of House of Justice”

Excerpt From: Effendi, Shoghi. “The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh.”

 

[Dawnofhope]

That the Spiritual Assemblies of today will be replaced in time by the Houses of Justice, and are to all intents and purposes identical and not separate bodies, is abundantly confirmed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá Himself.

That's excellent

I have not been on RF long (started posting this month) so I am here learn.

Its been a while since I've studied some of the key documents such as the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha and The world order of Baha'u'llah that address these types of issues clearly.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's excellent

I have not been on RF long (started posting this month) so I am here learn.

Its been a while since I've studied some of the key documents such as the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha and The world order of Baha'u'llah that address these types of issues clearly.

I always try and come prepared with a bullet proof vest and full body armor before stepping in here!!

Also, there's a book I've been trying to buy from your bookstore but they told me they don't ship to Australia do you know why that is?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I always try and come prepared with a bullet proof vest and full body armor before stepping in here!!


Also, there's a book I've been trying to buy from your bookstore but they told me they don't ship to Australia do you know why that is?

Love it

Maybe New Zealand doesn't recognise Australia's sovereignty after you guys thrashed us at cricket. Y'know Payback

 

[loverofhumanity]

Love it

Maybe New Zealand doesn't recognise Australia's sovereignty after you guys thrashed us at cricket. Y'know Payback

Is NZ a country yet or is it still just an island? I suppose there's still some merit in beating a tiny island.

And one other question. Is NZ a country of sheep? If so, what's the population?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

[oldbadger]

The other matter to note is that Local and National Spiritual Assemblies will be termed (secondary) Houses of Justice and acquire more extensive functions, as the Baha’i Faith becomes better known. However to the best of my knowledge they will continue to be composed of both men and women and there will be no special functions assigned to either men or women. I am familiar with key writings in this area but it has been a while since I've considered them in depth.

Oh...... really?
This is so much fun.
Here is a brief listing showing key points of our conversations:-

Previously I wrote that Kitab i Aqdas referred to handing treasure trove responsibilities to males on Local/National Houses of Juistice............
AdrianHindes:- So what does that have to do with the price of fish? I thought we were talking about the differing roles of men and women on local and national spiritual assemblies?

OB: We were!!!
Have I got to show you that in a Bahai World L and N SAs will become L and N HJs?
AdrianHindes:- Go ahead and show me.

OB: You were shown one example. You questioned whether that referred to lsa and nsa sits. I told you that these would become houses of justice in a Baha'i world. You continue to challenge.
AdrianHindes:- The Baha'i Faith has an administrative order that includes National and Local Spiritual assemblies.
The men of the House of Justice refer to the Universal House of Justice.
OB:You are completely wrong, and over the next 72 hours I will dig out the evidence that explain that LSA's and NSA's will be Houses of Justice.
OB:I didn't need 72 hours, or even 72 minutes to find it.
Kit I Aqdas 101 refers to Local and/or National Houses of Justice, which is what LSAs and NSAs would become in a Bahai World. It shows that Males would have special duties.
AdrianHindes:- How about including citations and context as well as a coherent argument

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is NZ a country yet or is it still just an island? I suppose there's still some merit in beating a tiny island.

And one other question. Is NZ a country of sheep? If so, what's the population?[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

hmmmmm I think this is all just sour grapes because even lowly England who didn't make the quarter finals in the rugby world cup came to Australia and won.

Further I think your conversation with oldbadger has reminded you of this uncomfortable fact

Because you are a man and not a woman you have not learnt to cope with your emotions

Now you have regressed to a strange world of superego driven RF

But if your were a real man ....well I rest my case!!!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Here is a brief listing showing key points of our conversations:-

Sometimes logic, not just beauty is in the eye of the beholder

I think we may need a neutral referee to adjudicate...not too likely round here

I'm prepared to swallow a considerable amount of pride and call it a draw

It has been entertaining for sure

 

[loverofhumanity]

hmmmmm I think this is all just sour grapes because even lowly England who didn't make the quarter finals in the rugby world cup came to Australia and won.

Further I think your conversation with oldbadger has reminded you of this uncomfortable fact

Because you are a man and not a woman you have not learnt to cope with your emotions

Now you have regressed to a strange world of superego driven RF

But if your were a real man ....well I rest my case!!!

Adrian, I'm really glad you're here. I hope you drop in whenever you have time. All the people I've met here are decent and good and you seem to fit in very well and I like reading your posts.

You might wish to start a topic of your own whenever you feel like it.

Forgive me for the banter. I was just being silly. The last thing I'd want to do is offend a New Zealander. The All Blacks might put 60 on us next time we meet!! Ha! Ha!

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adrian, I'm really glad you're here. I hope you drop in whenever you have time. All the people I've met here are decent and good and you seem to fit in very well and I like reading your posts.

You might wish to start a topic of your own whenever you feel like it.

Forgive me for the banter. I was just being silly. The last thing I'd want to do is offend a New Zealander. The All Blacks might put 60 on us next time we meet!! Ha! Ha!

Its been the best forum I've been on, not that I do too much of this kind of thing. Last time 10 years ago! Have been involved in discussions on several other threads so slowly getting familiar with the good people behind the pseudonyms and icons. Its been entertaining as it has enlightening.

What did Abdu'l-Baha say "take no offence, give no offence" even from an Aussie!

If you're ever down Dunedin do drop by.

Not too sure if I'm ready to start a topic. You may need to lend me your bullet proof vest and give me eyes to recognise the wings and horns Until then may just lurk in the background

How long have you been on this group btw?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Its been the best forum I've been on, not that I do too much of this kind of thing. Last time 10 years ago! Have been involved in discussions on several other threads so slowly getting familiar with the good people behind the pseudonyms and icons. Its been entertaining as it has enlightening.

What did Abdu'l-Baha say "take no offence, give no offence" even from an Aussie!

If you're ever down Dunedin do drop by.

Not too sure if I'm ready to start a topic. You may need to lend me your bullet proof vest and give me eyes to recognise the wings and horns Until then may just lurk in the background

How long have you been on this group btw?

Thanks for that. My home you are most welcome to visit anytime. I'm in Northern NSW near Newcastle.

Ive been a couple of years in various forums like yourself.

I have met so many awesome people here. Have had some wonderful discussions. It keeps me coming back.

The most important thing is to treat others with respect. It's the spirit in which we communicate is important not so much what we say as we want to create unity, harmony and peace.

That's where I sometimes fall down but I try and remind myself to be respectful and courteous.

 

[oldbadger]

I always try and come prepared with a bullet proof vest and full body armor before stepping in here!!

Helmet!
Don't forget yer 'elmet!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Helmet!
Don't forget yer 'elmet!

And a hot coffee with milk and sugar and one chocolate biscuit!!

 

[Dawnofhope]

You might wish to start a topic of your own whenever you feel like it.

Maybe I will after all!

That's where I sometimes fall down but I try and remind myself to be respectful and courteous.

I am yet to see you be disrespectful or discourteous. Thats probably the biggest test for me. You have my permission to let me know if you think I'm overstepping the mark.

I'm still thinking about your original OP btw and responding to it. It is of course a topic of enormous significance and I haven't found the time to give it the thought it deserves.

Perhaps you would like to study the bible with me on the Olivet discourse. It relates to key prophecy in regards to the Promised One the Christians, Jews, and Muslims are awaiting. It will be an exciting journey to examine what is written and what has been fulfilled

 

[loverofhumanity]

Maybe I will after all!



I am yet to see you be disrespectful or discourteous. Thats probably the biggest test for me. You have my permission to let me know if you think I'm overstepping the mark.

I'm still thinking about your original OP btw and responding to it. It is of course a topic of enormous significance and I haven't found the time to give it the thought it deserves.

I really liked your new thread. Congratulations!The questions you asked I had 3 bars drop down one after the other like on a poker machine saying 'ignorance, ignorance, ignorance. So I won the ignorance jackpot.

So I did some hunting and investigating and researching and found some answers and learnt something. I tried to be scholarly and not just give any opinion or just a subjective opinion and I looked up many of my resources and compared them and then & made a decision to go with the facts that seemed to be fairly in agreement with one another.

One resource said definitely Matthew. Another said the Church had always attributed Matthews Gospel to him and in the back of my mind I thought of Baha'u'llah. He quoted Matthew in the Iqan.

Thanks for stretching my brain a bit. It can always do with plenty of exercise!!

 

[oldbadger]

Yes I read that. They are exempt as in not obligated but not forbidden if they wish to fight in a war. However men are obligated.

Question: Do you have a source for the instruction that men are obligated to fight in a war?

Just asking because I haven't got anything filed on that......

 

[loverofhumanity]

Question: Do you have a source for the instruction that men are obligated to fight in a war?

Just asking because I haven't got anything filed on that......

There are a few letters from the House of Justice. This is just one of them. But as it doesn't place the obligation to fight on any sex then it would include both sexes.

"Bahá'ís recognize the right and duty of governments to use force for the maintenance of law and order and to protect their people. Thus, for a Bahá'í, the shedding of blood for such a purpose is not necessarily essentially wrong.

The Bahá'í Faith draws a very definite distinction between the duty of an individual to forgive and "to be killed rather than to kill" and the duty of society to uphold justice. This matter is explained by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in Some Answered Questions.

In the present condition of the world Bahá'ís try to keep themselves out of the internecine conflicts that are raging among their fellow men and to avoid shedding blood in such struggles, but this does not mean that we are absolute pacifists.

Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated February 9, 1967, to a National Spiritual Assembly