The Role of Women in establishing Peace

[David T]

Wowzer!!! I did not know that

 

[oldbadger]

So what does that have to do with the price of fish? I thought we were talking about the differing roles of men and women on local and national spiritual assemblies?

We were!!!
Have I got to show you that in a Bahai World L and N SAs will become L and N HJs?

OK....... if you need a non Bahai to show you this as well, please just confirm that you have no idea about it and I'll do my best to teach you about it. But if I have to trawl through the writings yet again I think it's fair to ask that you remember it all for the future. This is unbelievable!

 

[james bond]

No. Not WE, but YOU. Can't you USians discuss anything without dragging you own parochial concerns into it?

Calm down. Hillary is a woman who was up for POTUS which is part of world news. Are you Canadian?

 

[Dawnofhope]

We were!!!
Have I got to show you that in a Bahai World L and N SAs will become L and N HJs?

OK....... if you need a non Bahai to show you this as well, please just confirm that you have no idea about it and I'll do my best to teach you about it. But if I have to trawl through the writings yet again I think it's fair to ask that you remember it all for the future. This is unbelievable!

Go ahead and show me. RF has freedom of speech. What special roles are there for male members of Baha'i local and national spiritual assemblies that are composed of men and women elected each year? There are certainly none now and you have been unable to find anything in the Baha'i writings that says otherwise.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So Mrs Thatcher adopted male characteristics? Love it!

And did Ghandi have feminine characteristics?

It all comes down to whether Baha'u'llah was the Promised One or not and had infallible knowledge or not because if He did then this is a good not bad decision.

So please get to the real challenge and prove to me Baha'u'llah is false and had no infallible knowledge and that the law He created about women not being eligible to serve on the Universal House of Justice was a mistake.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is a quirk of biology, nothing more. It is no justification for the patriarchal gender stereotype that women are typically 'nurturing' and men are not. It also flies in the face of evidence. Assuming someone's personality based on their sex organs is sexist and only serves to perpetuate the patriarchal attitudes you apparently want to rid us of.

Well because woman's role is different then so are the characteristics required for her to fulfill that role which nature has provided.

I don't believe any sexism is involved here. Nature has intended for men and women to have different roles and different characteristics so we find men overall more aggressive and women in general soft and tender. Nature has defined these roles not us.

 

[oldbadger]

Go ahead and show me. RF has freedom of speech. What special roles are there for male members of Baha'i local and national spiritual assemblies that are composed of men and women elected each year? There are certainly none now and you have been unable to find anything in the Baha'i writings that says otherwise.

You were shown one example. You questioned whether that referred to lsa and nsa sits. I told you that these would become houses of justice in a Baha'i world. You continue to challenge.
You don't know as much about Baha'i as you profess, it seems.
You need to study the writings more closely, methinks.

 

[oldbadger]

It all comes down to whether Baha'u'llah was the Promised One or not and had infallible knowledge or not because if He did then this is a good not bad decision.

So please get to the real challenge and prove to me Baha'u'llah is false and had no infallible knowledge and that the law He created about women not being eligible to serve on the Universal House of Justice was a mistake.

Loverofhumanity...... I don't have to prove anything. All I have to do is respond to your amazing OP that women in power would cause less wars, by reminding you that in Baha'i no women are going to obtain that power!
It was a mind crushingly crazy OP!

 

[whirlingmerc]

Some say that the nations that are dismissive of women or where women are seldom in politics are the most violent. I find a decision made considering both a masculine and feminine point of view tends to be better and perhaps that is part of the reason God normatively sets people in families to grow up.

In the Bible women have the following distinctions

- first defender of the faith was Eve (not as successful as one would like... but she attempted...)
- first righteous act of civil disobedience was the Egyptian midwives who would not kill the Jewish male babies
- first successful legal challenge was the daughters of Zelophehad
- first one to pick up a tamboreen and dance and lead the people in song after the Exodus crossing was Miriam, Moses sister
- first witness of the resurrection was Mary Magdalene

 

[loverofhumanity]

Loverofhumanity...... I don't have to prove anything. All I have to do is respond to your amazing OP that women in power would cause less wars, by reminding you that in Baha'i no women are going to obtain that power!
It was a mind crushingly crazy OP!

It's about one gender not dominating.

In the Bahá'í World Community men do not dominate like in the current world of politics. The genders are way more balanced so we don't have the conflicts the world has.

There is a greater balanced of the sexes in the Bahá'í Community than anywhere else in the world and we have peace amongst ourselves.

 

[oldbadger]

It's about one gender not dominating.

In the Bahá'í World Community men do not dominate like in the current world of politics. The genders are way more balanced so we don't have the conflicts the world has.

There is a greater balanced of the sexes in the Bahá'í Community than anywhere else in the world and we have peace amongst ourselves.

....... not while you continue to remind us all that women are different, could not make the seriosly tough decisions, and have babies!

There have been too many 'squabbles' and exclusions for me to believe that Bahai humans are any different from other humans. In fact, despite their clear gender discrimination the most peaceful, honest, trustworthy and decent people that I know are the Jehovah-Witnesses, growing so fast here that they outgrow their halls every few years. But just as with Bahai their theocratic world would terrify me and probably many others out there.

I think it was Queen Victoria who said about Bahai that if it was good it would flourish. It has diminished around here (Canterbury, Kent, England) despite help from the Quakers who lend their meeting houuse to any .........

 

[loverofhumanity]

....... not while you continue to remind us all that women are different, could not make the seriosly tough decisions, and have babies!

There have been too many 'squabbles' and exclusions for me to believe that Bahai humans are any different from other humans. In fact, despite their clear gender discrimination the most peaceful, honest, trustworthy and decent people that I know are the Jehovah-Witnesses, growing so fast here that they outgrow their halls every few years. But just as with Bahai their theocratic world would terrify me and probably many others out there.

I think it was Queen Victoria who said about Bahai that if it was good it would flourish. It has diminished around here (Canterbury, Kent, England) despite help from the Quakers who lend their meeting houuse to any .........

The Teachings of Baha'u'llah are self perpetuating and gradually being adopted worldwide by humanity to the dismay of some. (sorry old boy!)

They have their own power to inspire and change and reform humanity and the world is adopting them day by day regardless of our smallness in number, because they are the panacea for this age.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Well, it is true that the male gender is the dominant one behind the problems going around the world now. Murderers, warlords, thieves, rapists, scoundrels, etc., are vastly/almost all males.

 

[Dawnofhope]

You were shown one example. You questioned whether that referred to lsa and nsa sits. I told you that these would become houses of justice in a Baha'i world. You continue to challenge.
You don't know as much about Baha'i as you profess, it seems.
You need to study the writings more closely, methinks.

This thread has been about the equality of men and women as a prerequisite for world peace.

"The emancipation of women, the achievement of full equality between the sexes, is one of the most important, though less acknowledged prerequisites of peace. The denial of such equality perpetrates an injustice against one half of the world's population and promotes in men harmful attitudes and habits that are carried from the family to the workplace, to political life, and ultimately to international relations. There are no grounds, moral, practical, or biological, upon which such denial can be justified. Only as women are welcomed into full partnership in all fields of human endeavour will the moral and psychological climate be created in which international peace can emerge."
(From a letter written by the Universal House of Justice, October 1985)

The Baha'i Faith has an administrative order that includes National and Local Spiritual assemblies.

Bahá'í administration - Wikipedia

The Local Spiritual Assembly | What Bahá’ís Believe

The National Spiritual Assembly | What Bahá’ís Believe

These assemblies are elected annually and any Baha'i over the age of 21 years is eligible to vote or be vote for. In New Zealand where I live there are approximately 40 Local spiritual assemblies as well as the National Spiritual Assembly. There is a similar proportion of men and women that make up the overall member of assemblies in New Zealand. Every year we elect a chairman, vice-chairman, secretary, and treasurer. Different roles may be assigned depending on circumstances. However there has never been roles in the assemblies that are assigned based on gender.

You have provided a reference from Baha'u'llah's writings and suggested that this refers to a gender based role in Local and National Spiritual Assemblies. I have indicated that it doesn't and its not revelant to what we are talking about. Heres the quote:

Kitab i Aqdas:
101.
Question: Concerning the law on treasure trove.
Answer:
Should a treasure be found, one-third thereof is the right of the discoverer, and the other two-thirds should be expended by the men of the House of Justice for the welfare of all people. This shall be done after the establishment of the House of Justice, and until that time it shall be committed to the keeping of trustworthy persons in each locality and territory. He, in truth, is the Ruler, the Ordainer, the Omniscient, the All-Informed.

My understanding of it: This is a law that is not binding as yet but will be in the future. It concerns the administration of lost property that is found and what to do with it. The men of the House of Justice refer to the Universal House of Justice. However this role will almost certainly be delegated to National and Local Spiritual Assemblies. There is nothing to suggest that it will be "men" in the Local or National Spiritual Assemblies who take this on. It makes no sense whatsoever to have male only officers administrating lost property.

This appears to me unrelated to the topic we were discussing ie the equality of men and women as prerequisite for world peace. Anyone including those who are not yet Baha'is can approach Baha'i assemblies for further clarification.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Don't misunderstand when I say that realistically, this is a man's world, and the only way there would be peace on earth is God willing through divine intervention, not giving women the reins. Look how well that went with Germany and Europe.

Your OP is wishful thinking.

Look how well it went in the Garden of Eden!

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think it was Queen Victoria who said about Bahai that if it was good it would flourish. It has diminished around here (Canterbury, Kent, England) despite help from the Quakers who lend their meeting houuse to any .........

Baha'u'llah wrote to Queen Victoria near 1870. Around that time he was a prisoner in Akka, the great fortress prison of the Ottoman empire. At that stage His cause was hardly known at all in the West.

Queen Victoria and the Bahá'í Fath

According to the 1992 Encyclopaedia Britannica Book of the year, 100 after Baha'ullahs passing in 1892, "the Bahá'í Faith had established "significant communities" in more countries and territories than any other religion except for Christianity. They were organized in 205 areas worldwide vs. 254 for Christianity. According to The Baha'i World, this has since increased to 235 countries and territories, including over 2,100 racial, ethnic and tribal groups. Encyclopædia Britannica Online estimates that they had about 7.4 million members worldwide in mid-2002:The Encyclopedia Britannica Yearbook has listed the Bahá’í Faith as the second most widespread religion in the world (in terms of geographic reach), after Christianity."
Number of followers of the Baha'i faith

You suggest that the Baha'i Faith has not flourished! That's your opinion. The facts suggest otherwise.

I'm still waiting for that writing you said you would provide btw. One thats relevant....

 

[oldbadger]

My understanding of it: This is a law that is not binding as yet but will be in the future. It concerns the administration of lost property that is found and what to do with it. The men of the House of Justice refer to the Universal House of Justice. However this role will almost certainly be delegated to National and Local Spiritual Assemblies. There is nothing to suggest that it will be "men" in the Local or National Spiritual Assemblies who take this on. It makes no sense whatsoever to have male only officers administrating lost property.

You are completely wrong, and over the next 72 hours I will dig out the evidence that explain that LSA's and NSA's will be Houses of Justice.

This was covered in a recent thread.

 

[oldbadger]

The Teachings of Baha'u'llah are self perpetuating and gradually being adopted worldwide by humanity to the dismay of some. (sorry old boy!)

Such comments as 'sorry old boy!' might give any future outsiders in a Bahai World an idea of the arrogance that they might be met with.

And there surely would be some dismay.
A % of women will be dismayed at your prejudice
Most LGBTQIA folks will be dismayed at your policies. Most humanists will be dismayed at some of your judicial sentencing policies.
Most atheists, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and any non-Bahais would be dismayed that they could never influence World Politics again, disbarred from ever voting.

Any person in the World can read your posts, anytime, and you need to decide whether they will mostly be swayed for or against your proposed theocratic world.

 

[oldbadger]

You have provided a reference from Baha'u'llah's writings and suggested that this refers to a gender based role in Local and National Spiritual Assemblies.
. There is nothing to suggest that it will be "men" in the Local or National Spiritual Assemblies who take this on. It makes no sense whatsoever to have male only officers administrating lost property.

Take it from a non-Bahai.
I didn't need 72 hours, or even 72 minutes to find it.
Kit I Aqdas 101 refers to Local and/or National Houses of Justice, which is what LSAs and NSAs would become in a Bahai World. It shows that Males would have special duties.
If you can't take it from me, take it from Bahauallah. You should pay more attention to his writings, and those of Abdul Baha and Shogi Effendi.

In his Most Holy Book, which he completed in `Akka around 1873, Baha'u'llah ordained the establishment of houses of justice (sing. Ar. bayt al-`adl) among Baha'is, which would manage their affairs. He wrote, "The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counsellors to the number of Baha [nine], and should it exceed this number it doth not matter."
...................................................... In this book he employs the plain term "house of justice" with reference both to local community steering committees and with reference to the international body he appointed to head up his religion in the future, which came to be known as the Universal House of Justice.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I didn't need 72 hours, or even 72 minutes to find it.

How about including citations and context as well as a coherent argument