The Role of Women in establishing Peace

[loverofhumanity]

Such comments as 'sorry old boy!' might give any future outsiders in a Bahai World an idea of the arrogance that they might be met with.

And there surely would be some dismay.
A % of women will be dismayed at your prejudice
Most LGBTQIA folks will be dismayed at your policies. Most humanists will be dismayed at some of your judicial sentencing policies.
Most atheists, agnostics, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims and any non-Bahais would be dismayed that they could never influence World Politics again, disbarred from ever voting.

Any person in the World can read your posts, anytime, and you need to decide whether they will mostly be swayed for or against your proposed theocratic world.

I meant that in a friendly spirit. It was never intended to be offensive. So I sincerely and humbly apologize.

Let's start with women. You can see all over the world in EVERY country without exception, that is, all 360 odd countries, women are clamoring for equal rights, equal pay, freedom from rape and violence, equal status in society and equal representation on all administrative bodies whether government, social, sport or other. The Bahá'í Faith has one of the largest percentage representation of women in administrative roles of any community in the world in existence.

The teaching of the equality of men and women is a desire of humanity and the majority of the world's women who are crying for equal rights everywhere and originate from the Bahá'í Teachings so these teachings are fulfilling the desires of women.

Equality between men and women is now a worldwide phenomenon promoted internationally and recognized as essential to the advancement of humanity. The UN is just one example.


http://www2.unwomen.org/-/media/hea..._us_web-singlepages.pdf?v=1&d=20150129T165923

The principle of the equality of men and women is spreading all over the world but there is a long way to go. Women are still not permitted to drive a car in countries like Saudi Arabia or to vote. And why aren't women given equal pay for the same job a man does? And the rapes and genital mutation and honor killings. There are many problems which indicate that the female population is oppressed, suppressed and does not have an equal voice or equal rights in many spheres throughout the world.

We believe that when the feminine quality of women becomes more apparent in the world then it will counterbalance the aggressive nature of our age to create an age of consultation where disputes will mostly always be solved through dialogue. But that doesn't mean that there won't be times when we won't need to go to fight a just war against a ruthless dictator etc.

Until women are rescued from oppression and allowed to reach their full potential, humanity is being deprived of the talent and support it needs and does not have right now to address the challenges it faces. And it's no coincidence that without women at their full potential, the world is having great difficulty overcoming and confronting and finding solutions to current problems just by male dominance alone. We need a balance of the sexes to run our world.

Then things will be different. Then we will have peace. If only one sex is dominant, that is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Such comments as 'sorry old boy!' might give any future outsiders in a Bahai World an idea of the arrogance that they might be met with.

Or it could be a term of endearment. Maybe you are reading too much into it...

 

[loverofhumanity]

Or it could be a term of endearment. Maybe you are reading too much into it...

Exactly. Much appreciated Adrian. I just couldn't think of the word but that's the spirit in which it was meant.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I think its just the pit falls of these types of discussion groups and not hvaing face to face contact...

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think its just the pit falls of these types of discussion groups and not hvaing face to face contact...

Then we can see who wears the horns and who has the wings. Lol

I really loved that gender equality brochure I just found from UN Women. It's becoming a massive movement throughout the world and gaining momentum with every passing day.

But strange as it seems, women's status and rights depends on us men. We're the ones who have to be honest with ourselves and recognise women are still very much oppressed in many countries and work for their rights.

 

[savagewind]

People are still very much oppressed. Some men, some women, children, minorities, poor people, sick people, boring people, .................

 

[oldbadger]

How about including citations and context as well as a coherent argument

You've read enough evidence to get learning.
You've had your lesson ..........
Time for you to do some homework.
Then you might add a post to correct your previous incorrect posts, your own lack of understanding and learning.
At least that might show that you deserve your seat on any assembly.

I cannot understand why some Bahais on this thread left you in the dark about this. We've discussed it on another thread.

 

[oldbadger]

I meant that in a friendly spirit. It was never intended to be offensive. So I sincerely and humbly apologize.

Fair enough.

Let's start with women.

Now just STOP IT!
We need to start with PEOPLE!
Just now, where I live, scores of footballers are gathering the guts together to tell that when in training they were sexually abused and raped by trainers and other 'career-decision-makers'.
So please, when you speak of rape, speak about PEOPLE! You'd be amazed at how many male rapes lead to suicide because victims dare not report such crimes because the KNOW that they'll be treated as the joke of the month.

You need a much wider mindset than that which you demonstrate to the world. @savagewind has already made the point, I think.

And to 'drag on' about the wonderful things that you are doing to put the world right is somewhat distorted unless you include all the other thousands of organisations which are present in the struggle for humanitarian success.

 

[loverofhumanity]

People are still very much oppressed. Some men, some women, children, minorities, poor people, sick people, boring people, .................

Granted. But here we are speaking about the imbalance of how the world is run, mostly using aggression and force and we believe that when feminine qualities are combined with their male ones then we can create a better world.

A male dominated world has failed completely to usher in world peace. With women and men working together as a family should we believe the family of humanity can become a reality.

We do not believe one sex alone can accomplish peace just like a bird cannot fly with just one wing.

 

[oldbadger]

I think its just the pit falls of these types of discussion groups and not hvaing face to face contact...

......the above sent to another.....

If you had sent that to me I should exclaim, 'Careful what you wish for!'.

In an open debate with voting assembly you might find that your proposal or your defence might become your nightmare. In fact, you're probably more safe here, where your denial denial denial tactic might not be so glaringly clear to folks.

 

[oldbadger]

...................With women and men working together as a family should we believe the family of humanity can become a reality..............

.....the above sent to another........

Working together as a Family. ...........!
Family, like Charity, begins at home, and before Bahai can talk about World 'family-type' harmony it would need to realise a higher success rate of 'family-at-home', is my guess.

Stable couples who joined Bahai together help the figures, I would reckon, but bahai marriages have a %breakdown rate, and I think this is caused by the ridiculous 'no-sex-before-marriage' rule.

In my experience couples have found that they were totally unsuited to each other, sexually, and too late to just back away. One wife explained her horror at discovering what her husband 'wanted to do', thus breaking the 'no backbiting' code. There was a pregnancy by that time, with a resulting 'single-parent' child.

You would need to demonstrate your 'strength-in-family' before offering solutions for a 'World in family harmony'.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Fair enough.


Now just STOP IT!
We need to start with PEOPLE!
Just now, where I live, scores of footballers are gathering the guts together to tell that when in training they were sexually abused and raped by trainers and other 'career-decision-makers'.
So please, when you speak of rape, speak about PEOPLE! You'd be amazed at how many male rapes lead to suicide because victims dare not report such crimes because the KNOW that they'll be treated as the joke of the month.

You need a much wider mindset than that which you demonstrate to the world. @savagewind has already made the point, I think.

And to 'drag on' about the wonderful things that you are doing to put the world right is somewhat distorted unless you include all the other thousands of organisations which are present in the struggle for humanitarian success.

The main fact I wish to emphasise is that women in particular have been refused their rights for centuries. And they still are denied them today all over the world.

This thread is mainly about the equality of men and women and achieving peace through both sexes.

As far as humanity as a whole is concerned we could start another thread which encompasses the entire Faith if you like.

 

[loverofhumanity]

.....the above sent to another........

Working together as a Family. ...........!
Family, like Charity, begins at home, and before Bahai can talk about World 'family-type' harmony it would need to realise a higher success rate of 'family-at-home', is my guess.

Stable couples who joined Bahai together help the figures, I would reckon, but bahai marriages have a %breakdown rate, and I think this is caused by the ridiculous 'no-sex-before-marriage' rule.

In my experience couples have found that they were totally unsuited to each other, sexually, and too late to just back away. One wife explained her horror at discovering what her husband 'wanted to do', thus breaking the 'no backbiting' code. There was a pregnancy by that time, with a resulting 'single-parent' child.

You would need to demonstrate your 'strength-in-family' before offering solutions for a 'World in family harmony'.

Yes that's correct. The problem is that we all live in this world and are affected by it and there's such an over emphasis on sex but the Bahá'í teachings emphasise that for relationships to endure they need to be built on spiritual not just physical foundations.

So I have been married for 40 years 2018. I married a Bahá'í I'd just met in Burma after 7 days there. I couldn't speak Burmese and she couldn't speak English. Initially we had problems with culture and language but our strong love for Baha'u'llah kept us united through many difficulties.

Now we get along beautifully and it's because we make the effort to try and practice what Baha'u'llah teaches. So I am western and she is eastern with opposing cultures and languages but the key is to make an effort to practice the Bahá'í teachings.

Just trying a bit has kept us together so long. Our marriage has never been about sex or money or anything material but just a simple love for Baha'u'llah. Because Baha'u'llah wants us to live in harmony and not cause sadness we love each other. This kind of love is far stronger than sex, plutonic love or family love. It is a spiritual love which lasts forever and brings eternal joy.

Any marriage built upon love for Baha'u'llah will endure but if it is based upon purely physical attraction or material things there are no guarantees.

The Bahá'í marriage vow are very simple but to the point on just how the couple should conduct their marital affairs,

"We will all, verily, abide by the Will of God"

Baha'u'llah

The Will of God in this Day are the laws and teachings of Baha'u'llah. So abiding by them will bring peace, harmony and happiness to the couple and turning away or disobeying them will cause problems and maybe divorce so we are all, husbands and wives, equally on notice to keep abiding by His laws out of love for Him only.

"Obey My Commandments for the love of My Beauty"

Baha'u'llah

 

[loverofhumanity]

......the above sent to another.....

If you had sent that to me I should exclaim, 'Careful what you wish for!'.

In an open debate with voting assembly you might find that your proposal or your defence might become your nightmare. In fact, you're probably more safe here, where your denial denial denial tactic might not be so glaringly clear to folks.

Dear old badger,

I sincerely thank you very much, as so often you are the life of the party , er, I mean thread. You ask the tough questions that need to be asked. You keep all the Baha'is here on our toes and call out any discrepancies or inconsistencies.

.Bottom line is. I love your questioning, criticisms, interrogations and scrutinising. More! More![emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

 

[Dawnofhope]

If you had sent that to me I should exclaim, 'Careful what you wish for!'.

Bottom line is. I love your questioning, criticisms, interrogations and scrutinising.

I have really enjoyed the more recent posts from you both.

 

[oldbadger]

Dear old badger,

I sincerely thank you very much, as so often you are the life of the party , er, I mean thread. You ask the tough questions that need to be asked. You keep all the Baha'is here on our toes and call out any discrepancies or inconsistencies.

.Bottom line is. I love your questioning, criticisms, interrogations and scrutinising. More! More![emoji122][emoji122][emoji122]

...and from @adrianhindes :-

I have really enjoyed the more recent posts from you both.

Now that's the spirit of it all, right there.

About 3 decades ago a group of neighbours were harassing a Witness for parking his car in our tiny narrow street, so I went out and invited him to park it on our second drive, then and at any time in the future. I made him a mug of my dreadful coffee and we argued about religion and life. 3 decades later he still parks his car on our drive and comes in to debate religion and life, only now he gets brilliant coffee made by my wife.

And we have shown each other so much!

 

[oldbadger]

Granted. But here we are speaking about the imbalance of how the world is run, mostly using aggression and force and we believe that when feminine qualities are combined with their male ones then we can create a better world. .....................................

Yeah, I got that, but the developing World is tending to leave some of the Bahai tenets behind, and for that reason alone I expect that a Bahai World will never actually come to fruition.

Look at this, I discovered it whilst digging around in my files for info about Local Houses of Justice. Abdul Baha is recorded (Paris Talks?) as explaining that women should not serve in the Armed Forces.
In 1913 `Abdu'l-Baha made one last pronouncement (...................in a letter to a woman that is reprinted in English translation at the end of Paris Talks. He there affirms women's equality but excludes them from service in combat and on the house of justice.

The house of justice was the Chicago HJ but that's not the point here..... the point is that the UK has only recently legalislated provision for women to serve on front lines, let alone in the Armed Forces.

By telling women that they are different, that they have babies, that they cannot serve on an assembly, that they cannot fight for their country, etc etc is extremely irriotating to them, and since they equate to half of all humanity Bahai has just shotr itself in both feet.

We won't included the many other groups including a % of males who will not support Bahai.

Ergo, you will be most unlikely to ever reach a Bahai majority in the World, and it does look to many of us as if this is a gracious reprieve.

 

[loverofhumanity]

...and from @adrianhindes :-

Now that's the spirit of it all, right there.

About 3 decades ago a group of neighbours were harassing a Witness for parking his car in our tiny narrow street, so I went out and invited him to park it on our second drive, then and at any time in the future. I made him a mug of my dreadful coffee and we argued about religion and life. 3 decades later he still parks his car on our drive and comes in to debate religion and life, only now he gets brilliant coffee made by my wife.

And we have shown each other so much!

I just have to say this:

I really am getting to enjoy being "badgered".

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeah, I got that, but the developing World is tending to leave some of the Bahai tenets behind, and for that reason alone I expect that a Bahai World will never actually come to fruition.

Look at this, I discovered it whilst digging around in my files for info about Local Houses of Justice. Abdul Baha is recorded (Paris Talks?) as explaining that women should not serve in the Armed Forces.
In 1913 `Abdu'l-Baha made one last pronouncement (...................in a letter to a woman that is reprinted in English translation at the end of Paris Talks. He there affirms women's equality but excludes them from service in combat and on the house of justice.

The house of justice was the Chicago HJ but that's not the point here..... the point is that the UK has only recently legalislated provision for women to serve on front lines, let alone in the Armed Forces.

By telling women that they are different, that they have babies, that they cannot serve on an assembly, that they cannot fight for their country, etc etc is extremely irriotating to them, and since they equate to half of all humanity Bahai has just shotr itself in both feet.

We won't included the many other groups including a % of males who will not support Bahai.

Ergo, you will be most unlikely to ever reach a Bahai majority in the World, and it does look to many of us as if this is a gracious reprieve.

There is no Baha'i law prohibiting women from serving in the armed forces or Baha'i men or from going to war. Also, women are permitted to and do serve on Local Spiritual Assemblies and National Spiritual Assemblies and will also serve on them when they become Local and National Houses of Justice.

We just don't know at this moment why they are exempt from the Universal House of Justice. Abdul-Bahá'í has even said women are the stronger sex in many ways and also superior to men in some ways so if anything He exalts them but it was the command of Baha'u'llah which said only men could serve on the Universal House of Justice.

I can only assume it has something to do with some functions of the Universal House of Justice which are not present in the National and Local Houses because women serve on them without restrictions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Take it from a non-Bahai.
I didn't need 72 hours, or even 72 minutes to find it.
Kit I Aqdas 101 refers to Local and/or National Houses of Justice, which is what LSAs and NSAs would become in a Bahai World. It shows that Males would have special duties.
If you can't take it from me, take it from Bahauallah. You should pay more attention to his writings, and those of Abdul Baha and Shogi Effendi.

In his Most Holy Book, which he completed in `Akka around 1873, Baha'u'llah ordained the establishment of houses of justice (sing. Ar. bayt al-`adl) among Baha'is, which would manage their affairs. He wrote, "The Lord hath ordained that in every city a House of Justice be established wherein shall gather counsellors to the number of Baha [nine], and should it exceed this number it doth not matter."
...................................................... In this book he employs the plain term "house of justice" with reference both to local community steering committees and with reference to the international body he appointed to head up his religion in the future, which came to be known as the Universal House of Justice.

Dear Old Badger

In one of the Baha’u’llahs early works called the Hidden words He talks about Justice and how important it is to be able to think independently and free from the influence of others.

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

In that spirit I had hoped you would consider the verses mentioned and what YOU thought they meant.

Anyway, I am the Baha’i and you have asked me about my understanding of it. Happy to oblige! If you have something to teach me about the Baha'i Faith then very good

What you have provided appears to me is an excerpt from a paper written by a Juan Cole that includes references to Baha’u’llah’s work The Kitab-i-Aqdas or Most Holy Book. The paper was written in 1996 the same year he resigned from the Baha’i Faith. He was disaffected by the Baha’i Faith and held views contrary to Baha’i administration, some of which feature in this paper. I wonder if this is where this idea about differing roles of men and women on Local and National Spiritual Assemblies comes from?

The other matter to note is that Local and National Spiritual Assemblies will be termed (secondary) Houses of Justice and acquire more extensive functions, as the Baha’i Faith becomes better known. However to the best of my knowledge they will continue to be composed of both men and women and there will be no special functions assigned to either men or women. I am familiar with key writings in this area but it has been a while since I've considered them in depth.

Although I had wanted to keep posts related to the equality of men and woman as a prerequisite for world peace I see this an important aspect of the Baha'i Faith you want to discuss so go for it. I really have nothing to hide and do not believe the Baha'i Faith does either.