The rules for leaving Islam and life after Islam -

[tumbleweed41]

so let me get this straight are you saying islm does not teach that if a person turnes his back he will be killed , so waht does it teach about leaVING ISLAM ?

No, not all sects and schools of thought of Islam teach this.
Just as there are very few denominations of Christianity that teach the stoning of sinners.
Badran is trying to tell you what his school of thought concerning those sayings mean. Yet you seem to imply that he should accept your interpretation and begin killing apostates.

Fatima, on the other hand accepts your interpretation, and wishes for apostates to be killed.

 

[currypowder]

Really? the Quran mentions nothing about death. No punishment at all. So i am telling you what the Quran says. It says that there should be no compulsion in religion.



Nothing, if you leave Islam thats up to you.

SO YOU ARE SAYING YOU DONT BERLIVE IN THE HAdiths , you dont belive any of these versus i mentioned in the OP are correct , is that all made up , cause asfar as i know muslims need to read hadith and quran, is that correct

 

[tumbleweed41]

SO YOU ARE SAYING YOU DONT BERLIVE IN THE HAdiths , you dont belive any of these versus i mentioned in the OP are correct , is that all made up , cause asfar as i know muslims need to read hadith and quran, is that correct

Do you even realize that the two main denominations of Islam, Shi`ism and Sunnism, have different sets of Hadith collections?

 

[Badran]

How do some Muslims come to believe that conversion warrants death?

Well, sadly also lots of scholars believe that these Hadiths are instructing us to kill people who only leave Islam. The rational behind it is ridiculous. The ones i heard was like that when you choose to be a muslim, you know this the truth, so when you leave it, you're a hypocrite ...... and so on.

Its nonsense anyway, for a very simple reason that they somehow forgot that some people are born and raised as muslims, so they didn't "choose" to be so. As for those who do choose, it is still against the teachings and mere common sense that we should supposedly kill them.

The Quran does not say this, even people who believe we should kill converts know and say that the Quran doesn't say this. The dispute is around some Hadiths.

 

[Twig pentagram]

SO YOU ARE SAYING YOU DONT BERLIVE IN THE HAdiths , you dont belive any of these versus i mentioned in the OP are correct , is that all made up , cause asfar as i know muslims need to read hadith and quran, is that correct

That's only correct for most muslims.

 

[zenzero]

Friends,

'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Personal understanding is that there is some mistake somewhere of which have no idea as religion simply means a way to the *self* or *god* and even a NO-WAY is also a way so in effect everyone is religious and all beings being different forms of the same energy/god it can never be killed as energy only gets changed from one form to another. when one cannot create life the question of taking too does not occur.

Love & rgds

 

[Badran]

SO YOU ARE SAYING YOU DONT BERLIVE IN THE HAdiths , you dont belive any of these versus i mentioned in the OP are correct , is that all made up , cause asfar as i know muslims need to read hadith and quran, is that correct

I do believe in Hadiths. You should really read what i said. I said the Hadiths are interpreted by some to mean death for converts, and by others to mean death for traitors, and like i said, there is a thread addressing this subject. If you want i'll post it for you. It addresses and explains with great detail the Hadiths and how they do not tell us to supposedly kill converts.

Also, to believe in Hadiths doesn't mean to believe in every one of them, because there are many collections, and there is much work that has been put to determine which ones are authentic and which are not and so on. The ones that are considered authentic, are followed by most muslims. However, i don't follow all of those which are considered authentic, because few of them teach things that i do not agree with. They contradict with the Quran and mere common sense.

 

[xkatz]

SO YOU ARE SAYING YOU DONT BERLIVE IN THE HAdiths , you dont belive any of these versus i mentioned in the OP are correct , is that all made up , cause asfar as i know muslims need to read hadith and quran, is that correct

Ever heard of Quranists? They only accept the Quran and reject the Hadiths.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I think you're meeting additional questions because your posts have been rather glib

I prefer to state my position first, then to elaborate later.

Well, the question does present itself. Is it literally true that a good Muslim should attempt to kill those who leave Islam? If so, under which circunstances exactly?

No one kills anyone, only the government does.

I do, however, believe and hope that most Muslims will at some level know and accept that to some degree everyone is a prophet, and entitled to make their own moral choices and judgements for the very simple reason that we ultimately have no choice.

Did you know that in Islam, only about 10 % or less of the comandments are undiscussable, the rest is opened for Ijtihad of scholars ( extracting rules from Quran and Sunnah), because people are different and have different mentalities so each understand hadiths respecting that ( dont forget that I said scholars not anyone is able to make Ijtiahd, until he have reached a certain level of religion knowledge).

And this ruling is part of the 10% commandments.

 

[Badran]

Thank you.

No problem.

Thank you for taking the trouble of explaining things that should be obvious enough and needn't be explained.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Badran, check this out please:

ÞÊá ÇáãÑÊÏ ÅÐÇ áã íÊÈ

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

The ones that are considered authentic, are followed by most muslims. However, i don't follow all of those which are considered authentic, because few of them teach things that i do not agree with. They contradict with the Quran and mere common sense.

If you know they are authentic, that would mean the prophet peace be upon him; so you mean you do not agree with some of the prophets peace be upon him ruling?

 

[tumbleweed41]

And this ruling is part of the 10% commandments.

Do all sects and schools of thought agree on this?

 

[Badran]

Badran, check this out please:

ÞÊá ÇáãÑÊÏ ÅÐÇ áã íÊÈ

Thanks, i will.

If you know they are authentic, that would mean the prophet peace be upon him; so you mean you do not agree with some of the prophets peace be upon him ruling?

No, of course not. They are considered to be authentic, not by me obviously. If i thought the prophet (pbuh) really instructed us to kill people who leave Islam i would either accept that or reject Islam as a whole, i wouldn't reject a part and accept others. I don't reject any of Islam's teachings, either in the Quran or the teachings of the prophet. However, each one of them requires some work. The quran, in interpretation. The Hadiths in deciding which ones to follow and also in interpretation.

As far as the Hadiths, i follow the majority of the Hadiths considered to be authentic. However there are a few that contradicts with the Quran and common sense in my opinion, and therefore i don't believe the prophet (pbuh) really said or did what they say.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Do all sects and schools of thought agree on this? __________________

We are part of Sunnah and Jama'ah. i.e we follow Teachings of the prophets peace be upon him and the agreement of scholars upon a subject.

I wish I was able to translate the subject Ive gave Badran, but that would be impossible.

Im not sure, but Ive read somewhere that even shiites agree upon this, hope Shia Islam will share with us their view on the subject

 

[currypowder]

I do believe in Hadiths. You should really read what i said. I said the Hadiths are interpreted by some to mean death for converts, and by others to mean death for traitors, and like i said, there is a thread addressing this subject. If you want i'll post it for you. It addresses and explains with great detail the Hadiths and how they do not tell us to supposedly kill converts.

Also, to believe in Hadiths doesn't mean to believe in every one of them, because there are many collections, and there is much work that has been put to determine which ones are authentic and which are not and so on. The ones that are considered authentic, are followed by most muslims. However, i don't follow all of those which are considered authentic, because few of them teach things that i do not agree with. They contradict with the Quran and mere common sense.

yes please send me that link , also can you tell waht islam does teach about someone who wants to leave islam and can you give me some versus to back that up

also waht does it matter if it was for for converts, or traitors - still cant kill someone for that , who decides wich hadith is real ? muslims - how lovley so if they find anything they dont like the y just interpreate it diffrently , a man is offering 100 000 dollars to anyone who can prove muhammed was not a rapist and pedophile , do you know of this challenge

 

[Badran]

We are part of Sunnah and Jama'ah. i.e we follow Teachings of the prophets peace be upon him and the agreement of scholars upon a subject.

Yeah, but not all scholars agree on this. And if they did, i still wouldn't follow them. This is a matter that i consider very clear. The quran mentions conversion many times and there is no indication whatsoever of punishment, let alone capital punishment.

The idea itself also contradicts with freedom of religion that is guaranteed. If all the followers of Islam did this punishment it still wouldn't mean they were right. Following the group without questioning is not a good idea.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

If i thought the prophet (pbuh) really instructed us to kill people who leave Islam i would either accept that or reject Islam as a whole, i wouldn't reject a part and accept others.

Alhamdulillah, I thought you didnt know we are not to accept parts and reject others, I was already thinking on how to explain that

I would like to ask if you're ready to give up your opinion if faced with authentic hadeeths, not fearing to look " bad " or "heartless" in the opinion of non-muslims? Are you ready to do such a thing?

 

[tumbleweed41]

As far as the Hadiths, i follow the majority of the Hadiths considered to be authentic. However there are a few that contradicts with the Quran and common sense in my opinion, and therefore i don't believe the prophet (pbuh) really said or did what they say.

For example...

There is no compulsion in religion [2:256]
Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve [18:29]
Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path. [4:137]

With regards to the last verse, how could they believe, then disbelieve, and then believe, and then again disbelieve if they are killed as apostates?

Thus making a Hadith promoting the killing of apostates questionable.

(This being only the opinion of a non-Muslim)

 

[Badran]

I would like to ask if you're ready to give up your opinion if faced with authentic hadeeths, not fearing to look " bad " or "heartless" in the opinion of non-muslims? Are you ready to do such a thing?

I guess you didn't really get what i said.

What do you mean presented with authentic Haidths?

You will present me with Hadiths that i already know. They are considered to be authentic, not by me. See my point?

As for fearing of how i look, do you think if i thought something to be part of Islam's teachings, i would deny it to avoid looking heartless or not nice or cool enough for others?