The rules for leaving Islam and life after Islam -

[LuisDantas]

No one kills anyone, only the government does.

A government is hardly "no one", Fatima.

Nor are people (Muslim or otherwise) expected not to question or even overthrow a government, particularly when it begins to kill people for questionable reasons.

Did you know that in Islam, only about 10 % or less of the comandments are undiscussable,

No, I didn't. 10% is still about 10% too much, however.

the rest is opened for Ijtihad of scholars ( extracting rules from Quran and Sunnah), because people are different and have different mentalities so each understand hadiths respecting that ( dont forget that I said scholars not anyone is able to make Ijtiahd, until he have reached a certain level of religion knowledge).

And this ruling is part of the 10% commandments.

I believe you. I don't really agree that it is a good idea to have such a rigid, limited structure of religious interpretation, however. IMO the less people interpret religion, the more painful the divergences.

 

[currypowder]

Really? the Quran mentions nothing about death. No punishment at all. So i am telling you what the Quran says. It says that there should be no compulsion in religion.



Nothing, if you leave Islam thats up to you.

really were is that taught anywhere in islam ?

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path. [4:137]

If only you have continued the verses:

(138. Give to the hypocrites the tidings that there is for them a painful torment.) (139.
Those who take disbelievers for friends instead of believers, do they seek honor with them
Verily, then to Allah belongs all honor).


The verses are talking about hypocrites who doubt their faith and change it every now and them inside , not showing it to Muslims. Hypocrites in the whole Quran mean those who show Islam but hide disbelief in their hearts, and we are not supposed to open peoples heart, we are supposed to deal with what they show publicly.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I guess you didn't really get what i said.

I guess you're right

What do you mean presented with authentic Haidths?

You will present me with Hadiths that i already know. They are considered to be authentic, not by me. See my point?

No, not yet , sorry , do you attack their supposed authenticity? i.e You disagree with the way they are proven to be authentic, i.e Narration science.

As for fearing of how i look, do you think if i thought something to be part of Islam's teachings, i would deny it to avoid looking heartless or not nice or cool enough for others?

I know you enough to say you wouldnt Inshallah. Btw, please read what Ive told you in the frubal and Im waiting for a response


Barakallahu feek

 

[currypowder]

really were is that taught anywhere in islam ?

hello .WHAT DOES ISLAM SAY ABOUT SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO LEAVE ISLAM AND TELL OTHERS WHY THEY LEFT , CAN YOU TELL AND GIVE SOME VERUS TO BACK IT UP ?

 

[Badran]

yes please send me that link

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/98954-apostasy-capital-crime-islam.html

also waht does it matter if it was for for converts, or traitors - still cant kill someone for that , who decides wich hadith is real ? muslims - how lovley so if they find anything they dont like the y just interpreate it diffrently

You can't kill a traitor? Well, that is a different subject, right?

a man is offering 100 000 dollars to anyone who can prove muhammed was not a rapist and pedophile , do you know of this challenge

No i didn't know.

also can you tell waht islam does teach about someone who wants to leave islam and can you give me some versus to back that up

really were is that taught anywhere in islam ?

Well, for starters if Islam teaches nothing about it that alone would mean that we should do nothing about it.

However, freedom of religion is guaranteed, and killing people for choosing their religion contradicts with that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, sadly also lots of scholars believe that these Hadiths are instructing us to kill people who only leave Islam. The rational behind it is ridiculous. The ones i heard was like that when you choose to be a muslim, you know this the truth, so when you leave it, you're a hypocrite ...... and so on.

Its nonsense anyway, for a very simple reason that they somehow forgot that some people are born and raised as muslims, so they didn't "choose" to be so. As for those who do choose, it is still against the teachings and mere common sense that we should supposedly kill them.

The Quran does not say this, even people who believe we should kill converts know and say that the Quran doesn't say this. The dispute is around some Hadiths.

Thanx! Islam is complicated to some of us heathens, so a clear explanation is much appreciated.

 

[currypowder]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/98954-apostasy-capital-crime-islam.html



You can't kill a traitor? Well, that is a different subject, right?



No i didn't know.




Well, for starters if Islam teaches nothing about it that alone would mean that we should do nothing about it.

However, freedom of religion is guaranteed, and killing people for choosing their religion contradicts with that.

WHAT DOES ISLAM SAY ABOUT SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO LEAVE ISLAM AND TELL OTHERS WHY THEY LEFT , CAN YOU TELL AND GIVE SOME VERUS TO BACK IT UP ?

let me get this traight are you saying that no islamic teachings tell you how you deal with somone who wants to leave islam and tell otehr muslims why he left ?

You can't kill a traitor? Well, that is a different subject, right? waht do you mean its diffrent please explain

there is no other relgion that says you may kill someone if they change relgeion is there , not only that but Islam is the only relgion to totally reject the golden rule : do to others as you want done to you , this concept is not mentioned in Islam anywere but is common in all other relgion i think thats part of the problwem

 

[Badran]

No, not yet , sorry , do you attack their supposed authenticity? i.e You disagree with the way they are proven to be authentic, i.e Narration science.

No i don't. But in my opinion the whole narration thing is not a 100% assurance that what the prophet (pbuh) supposedly said, actually is true. In other words, i don't abide to any Hadith that is considered authentic. In this particular case, i believe that the Hadiths are either talking about treason, or they are just false all around, as in the prophet (pbuh) never really said them. The reason for this is because what they supposedly advocate contradicts with the Quran. And that when you think about it, it doesn't take much effort to be honest to see that something is wrong here.

I know you enough to say you wouldnt Inshallah.

Thank you

Btw, please read what Ive told you in the frubal and Im waiting for a response

Okay, i will soon do as you asked in the comment.

 

[Badran]

WHAT DOES ISLAM SAY ABOUT SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO LEAVE ISLAM AND TELL OTHERS WHY THEY LEFT , CAN YOU TELL AND GIVE SOME VERUS TO BACK IT UP ?

Already did.

waht do you mean its diffrent please explain

You can't see the difference between someone who chooses to follow a different religion, and someone who betrays his country or community for example? Like the example of selling or giving war secretes?

not only that but Islam is the only relgion to totally reject the golden rule : do to others as you want done to you , this concept is not mentioned in Islam anywere but is common in all other relgion i think thats part of the problwem

Actually, it is mentioned in Islam.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

A government is hardly "no one", Fatima.

I meant no citizen kills another.

Nor are people (Muslim or otherwise) expected not to question or even overthrow a government, particularly when it begins to kill people for questionable reasons.

If the government is following an Islamic teaching agreed upon by scholars than a Muslim wouldnt question it, if it contradicts Islamic teachings than a Muslim would question the government.

No, I didn't. 10% is still about 10% too much, however.

Not too much for a Muslim.

I believe you. I don't really agree that it is a good idea to have such a rigid, limited structure of religious interpretation, however. IMO the less people interpret religion, the more painful the divergences.

Why should one be a scholar to interpret religion? Because an interpretation shouldnt contradict neither Quran or Sunnah, and to do that you should know Quran and Sunnah and its sciences enough, which will make you a scholar.

 

[Badran]

Thanx! Islam is complicated to some of us heathens, so a clear explanation is much appreciated.

No problem.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

No i don't. But in my opinion the whole narration thing is not a 100% assurance that what the prophet (pbuh) supposedly said, actually is true. In other words, i don't abide to any Hadith that is considered authentic. In this particular case, i believe that the Hadiths are either talking about treason, or they are just false all around, as in the prophet (pbuh) never really said them. The reason for this is because what they supposedly advocate contradicts with the Quran. And that when you think about it, it doesn't take much effort to be honest to see that something is wrong here.

Are you leaning towards Quranim?

 

[currypowder]

already did.

Where ?

You can't see the difference between someone who chooses to follow a different religion, and someone who betrays his country or community for example? Like the example of selling or giving war secretes?

No since if i leave my chrsitian church - or betray it , i am pretty sure i will have nothing to worry , about ohhh and islam is not a country its a relgion - big diffrences

actually, it is mentioned in islam.

where ?

 

[tumbleweed41]

not only that but Islam is the only relgion to totally reject the golden rule : do to others as you want done to you , this concept is not mentioned in Islam anywere but is common in all other relgion i think thats part of the problwem

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."

[/FONT]“Woe to those . . . who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure, but when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due”
—Qur’an (Surah 83, "The Unjust," )
"those who show their affection to such as came to them for refuge and entertain no desire in their hearts for things given to the (latter), but give them preference over themselves"
—Qur’an (Surah 59, "Exile")


Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you.

—Muhammad, The Farewell Sermon
​

 

[YmirGF]

For example...

There is no compulsion in religion [2:256]


With regards to the last verse, how could they believe, then disbelieve, and then believe, and then again disbelieve if they are killed as apostates?

Thus making a Hadith promoting the killing of apostates questionable.

(This being only the opinion of a non-Muslim)

A very good analysis, I might add. However, there is a uncomfortable detail about compulsion that is always overlooked. When Muhammad was in the cave of Hira, he was COMMANDED to recite/repeat three times. Clearly, he was compelled to follow the demands of Archangel Gabriel. In this regard, there was most certainly compulsion used.

"Forerunners of the Revelation assumed the form of true visions that would strikingly come true all the time. After that, solitude became dear to him and he would go to the cave, Hira, to engage in devotion there for a certain number of nights before returning to his family, and then he would return for provisions for a similar stay. At length, unexpectedly, the Truth (the angel) came to him and said, "Recite." "I cannot recite," he (Muhammad) said.

Muhammad himself described: "Then he took me and squeezed me vehemently and then let me go and repeated the order 'Recite.' 'I cannot recite' said I, and once again he squeezed me and let me 'til I was exhausted. Then he said, 'Recite.' I said, 'I cannot recite.' He squeezed me for a third time and then let me go and said:

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful .
In the name of thy Lord Who createth Quran
Createth man from a clot.
And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
Who teacheth by the pen, Quran
Teacheth man that which he knew not.

Muhammad repeated these verses, trembling with fear. At this stage, he came back to his wife Khadijah, and said, "Cover me, ... cover me." She covered him until he restored security. He apprised Khadijah of the incident of the cave and added that he was horrified. His wife tried to soothe him and reassured him saying, "Allah will never disgrace you. You unite uterine relations; you bear the burden of the weak; you help the poor and the needy; you entertain the guests and endure hardships in the path of truthfulness."

(source - It's wiki, but I am a bit lazy today... its close enough to make my point)

The point is that Muhammad was quite obviously COMPELLED and this throws the whole notion of "No compulsion in religion" to the four winds. In fact, its a bit odd that he would mention it, when it wasn't even true in his own experience. Frankly, I don't know what Muhammad encountered in that cave but it doesn't seem likely that it was any angel.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

A very good analysis, I might add. However, there is a uncomfortable detail about compulsion that is always overlooked. When Muhammad was in the cave of Hira, he was COMMANDED to recite/repeat three times. Clearly, he was compelled to follow the demands of Archangel Gabriel. In this regard, there was most certainly compulsion used.

"Forerunners of the Revelation assumed the form of true visions that would strikingly come true all the time. After that, solitude became dear to him and he would go to the cave, Hira, to engage in devotion there for a certain number of nights before returning to his family, and then he would return for provisions for a similar stay. At length, unexpectedly, the Truth (the angel) came to him and said, "Recite." "I cannot recite," he (Muhammad) said.

Muhammad himself described: "Then he took me and squeezed me vehemently and then let me go and repeated the order 'Recite.' 'I cannot recite' said I, and once again he squeezed me and let me 'til I was exhausted. Then he said, 'Recite.' I said, 'I cannot recite.' He squeezed me for a third time and then let me go and said:

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful .
In the name of thy Lord Who createth Quran
Createth man from a clot.
And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,
Who teacheth by the pen, Quran
Teacheth man that which he knew not.

Muhammad repeated these verses, trembling with fear. At this stage, he came back to his wife Khadijah, and said, "Cover me, ... cover me." She covered him until he restored security. He apprised Khadijah of the incident of the cave and added that he was horrified. His wife tried to soothe him and reassured him saying, "Allah will never disgrace you. You unite uterine relations; you bear the burden of the weak; you help the poor and the needy; you entertain the guests and endure hardships in the path of truthfulness."

(source - It's wiki, but I am a bit lazy today... its close enough to make my point)

The point is that Muhammad was quite obviously COMPELLED and this throws the whole notion of "No compulsion in religion" to the four winds. In fact, its a bit odd that he would mention it, when it wasn't even true in his own experience. Frankly, I don't know what Muhammad encountered in that cave but it doesn't seem likely that it was any angel.

Right, and did you know that even his companions used to get beaten by angels at night in order to accept Islam? Poor guys, really.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

[FONT=trebuchet ms, arial, helvetica]"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."

[/FONT]“Woe to those . . . who, when they have to receive by measure from men, exact full measure, but when they have to give by measure or weight to men, give less than due”
—Qur’an (Surah 83, "The Unjust," )
"those who show their affection to such as came to them for refuge and entertain no desire in their hearts for things given to the (latter), but give them preference over themselves"
—Qur’an (Surah 59, "Exile")


Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you.

—Muhammad, The Farewell Sermon
​

Man, how do you do it? I spend my day trying to find the english translation of hadeeths I know in arabic, but in vain. Can you share your sources with me please?

Thanks

 

[tumbleweed41]

Aren't all "prophets" compelled?
Any human who is spoken to by God would have no choice but to obey.
The question is, is one who has entered a belief involuntary from birth, or through voluntary conversion, compelled by threat of death to keep that belief?


There is no compulsion in religion [2:256] seems to indicate that the answer is no.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Man, how do you do it? I spend my day trying to find the english translation of hadeeths I know in arabic, but in vain. Can you share your sources with me please?

Thanks

Google

In this case, "Ethics of reciprocity, Islam"

Where I found this link...
Versions of the Golden Rule in 21 world religions

And of course, good old Wiki....

The Golden Rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia