The Science of Ghosts

[Taylor Seraphim]

Actually all of these have a common origin....its called false worship and if you know why it exists and who is responsible for it, a lot of things drop into place. (1 John 5:19)

I can also provide a reason why belief in your deity among other supernatural entities exist.

So therefore you have no edge on that front.

I notice that you are keen on dictionary definitions.

Yes, because we are speaking the language English, so if you use an English word then you need to use the English definition so we can communicate.

Do man's definitions mean more to you than God's?

No god has presented any definitions.

Even in your scripture it is not stated that faith has a different definition than normal to him.

It appears that a group of humans are trying to twist a definition to suit their purposes.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Christian belief is based on faith AND evidence. I have all the proof I need, but then God is in my life and he guides and directs me in ways you would probably not appreciate or understand. Unbelievers have no "eyes of faith"...these are the eyes of real vision...unclouded by doubt....unhindered by the dark. They see the whole picture, without being distracted by a few dead pixels.

Really, what evidence?

Like I said...I see God in everything...in the beauty and the grandeur and the power in nature that makes me feel so small and insignificant....yet the Creator of this vast universe knows me and cares about my future. I have come to care about him very deeply and the more I get to know him the deeper my love and appreciation grows. I am sad that unbelievers never get to experience this.....you guys are missing out on something truly wonderful.

Can you provide evidence that this rhetoric is correct?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think you get what Im saying; and, we're talking pass each other. I know spirits exist. Thats a done deal.. Here is the issue:

We do indeed have a common foundation of truth.....the word of God....the mere fact that some don't accept it as such, does not change the truth of it....it just changes the beliefs of the individual....someone who has chosen a different "truth" to suit themselves.

The common foundation for every single person on this planet (their morals and beliefs) is Not the Bible. Likewise, the Sutras (what I believe is sacred scripture among others) is also Not the means of common foundation for every single person on this planet (their morals and beliefs).

Christianity has been dictating other peoples' morals for years and years. Let's stop here and take this objectively. I wont use Buddhist teachings. You wont use the Bible.

Common foundation is what every person can agree on when it comes to life. It also depends on societal norms and where you are from. So, the best way we can start is take a step back from our beliefs for a minute.

Do you know that the modern concept of a "ghost" was not known amongst the Bible writers? The word "ghost" is a later German word (geist) and means "spirit". People began referring to God's spirit as the "Holy Ghost" in order to convey the idea that it was a separate invisible personality of a triune god. When you know what "spirit" means in the original languages of the Bible, you understand that spiritism was forbidden to God's people because it brought them into contact directly with the demons...the great deceivers. (2 Cor 11:13-15)


Just look at history and the beliefs of the ancients. Demons have influenced man's religious beliefs down through time. Tell me of any ancient culture that has no evil spirits.

There are many religions that mix and merge pagan beliefs with Christianity. Many who practice Voodoo identify as Christians.....but it doesn't Christianize the Voodoo.....it is merely a paganized form of Christianity, which makes it completely unacceptable to God. (2 Cor 6:14-18) You can't mix light with darkness, or God and the devil.

I don't think the spirits mind who receives the deception...they can appear as "ghosts" in so called "haunted houses" but everyone seems to see the same ghost. So what? They are real...but they are not the spirits of the dead...there ARE no spirits of the dead walking around among us. The dead are not conscious.



We do indeed have a common foundation of truth.....the word of God....the mere fact that some don't accept it as such, does not change the truth of it....it just changes the beliefs of the individual....someone who has chosen a different "truth" to suit themselves.



Saul consulted a spirit medium when God abandoned him because of his disobedience. He was so desperate to know what was going to become of him that he sought out the only remaining spirit medium in Endor. Saul himself had purged all the mediums out of the land in obedience to God's command, but now he was breaking the law...and he knew it.

Some are likewise desperate to know what has become of a loved one they have lost in death. Consulting a medium, they think that they are contacting their relative or friend, when in fact they are just leaving themselves wide open to the deception of the demons.

I dont see how this relates to my post.

Since we are not going by the Bible because it isnt the common foundation of truth, we can look at this another way.

In history (basic) people have been put in mental institutions for having demons in them. The interpretation of them having a spirit in them later they found out was seizures and other legitimate mental health conditions that have no spiritual causes.

Christians were steadily dignosing people with demon possession etc thinking that some how satan had something to do with that persons illness. I am actually apauled that Christians still think this today. Many Christians believe that you can be possessed by demons of some sort. I had a seizure in a Christian church and the members where trying to get the holy spirit from me. Things of this nature is still believed today.

All because of power, politics, and the bible. Protestants (such as JW to Baptist) are not the first Christians. If anything, Christianity was probably wrong and protestants are trying to polish it up instead of accepting that that is part of their history, their Bible, their faith.

I must agree with you, identifying what spirits are is important. In my family, we did not see them as something special. Spirits are deceased people on earth. Translate that as you will....

but the common foundation is not the Bible and Sutras with this statement.

The common foundation is each persons experiences with spirits. Every religion and every other person around the world has probably had some contact with spirits and like experiences. Some have experiences with the Orishas. Some with the Holy Spirit. Some withtheir inner self. Some with their consciousness. Some with mindful breathing. Some by spells. Some by mediumship.

The list goes on.

In the Sutras, spirits, devas, demons, and half humans where equal to humans, bodhisattvas, and layman. We (according to the sutras) all have the same ability to hear the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha also taught to each person in analogy and the manner in which was appropriate. Spirits were never singled out as something special.

But I cannot use this to form a debate because it is onesided. You cant use the Bible to form a debate because it is one sided.

How do you give your points and support them without using the Bible to do so? (pretend I cant read the bible and Im like a child or something-laymans terms here)

 

[outhouse]

Really, what evidence?

have you read and studied the bible in full?

then why comment ?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

have you read and studied the bible in full?

then why comment ?

I have indeed.

I read it frequently.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have indeed.

I read it frequently.

Im curious. Why do you read the Bible?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Im curious. Why do you read the Bible?

1) I find the history of human myth interesting.

2) I never judge literary work before reading it.

3) I believe it is a good way to show the faults in Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

1) I find the history of human myth interesting.

2) I never judge literary work before reading it.

3) I believe it is a good way to show the faults in Christianity.

The first two are cool. The third, isnt that a bit wrong or unkind to show the faults in Christianity (unless you are showing faults for yourself, for research, for a concenting Christian who does not mind hearing opposing views of his faith)...but as a debate tool to show christians the fault of their faith???

Maybe give me some context; cause that just seem so.... wrong.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

The first two are cool. The third, isnt that a bit wrong or unkind to show the faults in Christianity (unless you are showing faults for yourself, for research, for a concenting Christian who does not mind hearing opposing views of his faith)...but as a debate tool to show christians the fault of their faith???

Maybe give me some context; cause that just seem so.... wrong.

Why is it wrong?

I do the same for pseudo-science, political stances, other religions, and other such things for both myself and for others.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why is it wrong?

I do the same for pseudo-science, political stances, other religions, and other such things for both myself and for others.

If you do so without insulting christians, then thats healthy. Its not something I would do to a Christian unless its a debate and he is open to hear the negative sides of his faith. In general conversation, I dont point out faults in others faiths. Thats why I think it is wrong.

Though--it depends on what your intent is. Proving faults sounds negative as if youre trying to make an argument to christians so they know their faith is false.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

If you do so without insulting christians, then thats healthy. Its not something I would do to a Christian unless its a debate and he is open to hear the negative sides of his faith. In general conversation, I dont point out faults in others faiths. Thats why I think it is wrong.

Though--it depends on what your intent is. Proving faults sounds negative as if youre trying to make an argument to christians so they know their faith is false.

I do not prompt a debate with anyone in everday conversation.

Sometimes I ask if they want to debate about something but I never force them to.

Also I will not continue a face-to-face debate when the opposing side is bringing emotion into the debate.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

If you do so without insulting christians, then thats healthy.

Being an atheist to begin with insults many christians.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Being an atheist to begin with insults many christians.

Actually, I understand why you say that; and, it depends. I am an atheist. I find that the only way Christian folks I live with are insulted by my disbelief in god is if I told them their faith is wrong in doing so. Most have respect, if not confusion, that I dont believe in a Creator. The manner in which I tell them is whether they hear an insult rather than just my lack of belief in their god.

Id assume that would be the same? Or do you live around christians who generally dont like atheists?

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Actually, I understand why you say that; and, it depends. I am an atheist. I find that the only way Christian folks I live with are insulted by my disbelief in god is if I told them their faith is wrong in doing so. Most have respect, if not confusion, that I dont believe in a Creator. The manner in which I tell them is whether they hear an insult rather than just my lack of belief in their god.

Id assume that would be the same? Or do you live around christians who generally dont like atheists?

Im around Christians that have been known to assault atheist.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Im around Christians that have been known to assault atheist.

I hope you havent been insulted.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

I hope you havent been insulted.

No your questions are perfectly valid.

 

[Deeje]

How do you give your points and support them without using the Bible to do so? (pretend I cant read the bible and Im like a child or something-laymans terms here)

Well, if you were a child, it would be very simple.....a child would not reject what is taught to them, based on pre-conceived notions or personal preference.....which is why Jesus said we had to become like young children if we wanted to be his followers. If you couldn't read, then I could read to you what God promises for the future and see what you thought of it. I could keep it real simple.

When Christ came to teach the people about Jehovah, they had to basically wipe out all the things that Jewish tradition had ingrained into them....these traditions were not based on God's word but on the Pharisees' interpretation of God's word.

Christendom is a mirror image of ancient Judaism.....far removed from the original faith because of the influence of corrupt men. It was foretold that this would happen.

If people have no faith in the Bible, then there is no basis to form any common ground. If you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God, then there is little that I can do to convince you otherwise. I can tell you what the Bible says but it won't mean much. I can tell you what the Bible has faced in its history....with so many attempts to destroy it and to keep it out of the hands of the common man....and yet it is still here....the most widely distributed book in human history....available in almost every spoken language.

I can tell you about the prophesies that were written, sometimes hundreds and even thousands of years before they happened.....that the world of today is exactly as the Bible said it would be in this time of the end. The Bible tells us what the outcome of the present situation will be and why all that has taken place has been necessary. But that is not enough for many people. So be it.

Only God can convince people....so if you don't believe he exists, or if you doubt that he has left communication with humans in the form of a book, nothing I say will have any impact. There is nothing I can do about that, but I have fulfilled my obligation to you by informing you of God's intentions. I am just the messenger...I am not told to force anyone to listen.

You have to have an open mind and heart, which seem to be in short supply in the world today. Too many people want to dictate their own terms for worship.....but there is only one acceptable way to serve the God of the Bible.....you either worship him on his terms or you don't get to share in what he purposes for the future. That is what I believe.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, if you were a child, it would be very simple.....a child would not reject what is taught to them, based on pre-conceived notions or personal preference.....which is why Jesus said we had to become like young children if we wanted to be his followers. If you couldn't read, then I could read to you what God promises for the future and see what you thought of it. I could keep it real simple.

When Christ came to teach the people about Jehovah, they had to basically wipe out all the things that Jewish tradition had ingrained into them....these traditions were not based on God's word but on the Pharisees' interpretation of God's word.

Christendom is a mirror image of ancient Judaism.....far removed from the original faith because of the influence of corrupt men. It was foretold that this would happen.

If people have no faith in the Bible, then there is no basis to form any common ground. If you don't believe that the Bible is the word of God, then there is little that I can do to convince you otherwise. I can tell you what the Bible says but it won't mean much. I can tell you what the Bible has faced in its history....with so many attempts to destroy it and to keep it out of the hands of the common man....and yet it is still here....the most widely distributed book in human history....available in almost every spoken language.

I can tell you about the prophesies that were written, sometimes hundreds and even thousands of years before they happened.....that the world of today is exactly as the Bible said it would be in this time of the end. The Bible tells us what the outcome of the present situation will be and why all that has taken place has been necessary. But that is not enough for many people. So be it.

Only God can convince people....so if you don't believe he exists, or if you doubt that he has left communication with humans in the form of a book, nothing I say will have any impact. There is nothing I can do about that, but I have fulfilled my obligation to you by informing you of God's intentions. I am just the messenger...I am not told to force anyone to listen.

You have to have an open mind and heart, which seem to be in short supply in the world today. Too many people want to dictate their own terms for worship.....but there is only one acceptable way to serve the God of the Bible.....you either worship him on his terms or you don't get to share in what he purposes for the future. That is what I believe.

Thats why I was focusing on a common foundation that both of us use. My using the sutras wont benefit you unless you wanted to learn the truth from them. My reading the Bible again would help me understand what its saying pace surface level (thats why quoting doesnt work).

To have a proper conversation, ground rules are needed. Most people I know who seen ghosts say its true by experiences. All over the world (since we are a mixing bowl here) they focus on experiences.

Thats the only common foundation I can think of. However, if you shoo away our experiences as if they came from the devil, its hard to find anything outside the bible (not contradicting) that you can agree with or even take into consideration as being true.

 

[Taylor Seraphim]

Thats why I was focusing on a common foundation that both of us use. My using the sutras wont benefit you unless you wanted to learn the truth from them. My reading the Bible again would help me understand what its saying pace surface level (thats why quoting doesnt work).

To have a proper conversation, ground rules are needed. Most people I know who seen ghosts say its true by experiences. All over the world (since we are a mixing bowl here) they focus on experiences.

Thats the only common foundation I can think of. However, if you shoo away our experiences as if they came from the devil, its hard to find anything outside the bible (not contradicting) that you can agree with or even take into consideration as being true.

I would say that the fact that you cannot embrace a religion if you start with a skeptical mind means that they are not intellectually honest.

 

[outhouse]

Why is it wrong?

I do the same for pseudo-science, political stances, other religions, and other such things for both myself and for others.

Because your taking it out of context if your finding fault.