The Shabbat Thread

[lostwanderingsoul]

Personally, I don't care what anyone "thinks" ( including myself )...
ALL that I'm concerned with is knowing the TRUTH .

And we would like to find the truth here.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Uh, this is Sabbath. Observant Jews will not use electronics on Sabbath.

Maybe we can wait.

 

[metis]

Perhaps you could give some views from someone who has experience with both sides. Is any day associated with the Passover every called a "sabbath" or a " high day"?

Yes as there are weekly Sabbaths, such as Pesach (the week of Passover).

Is there a difference between a sabbath and a high day? Especially the first day of unleavened bread. High day? Sabbath? And if it falls on some day other than Saturday, is it still called the same thing?

What one might call a "high day" may or may not be a Sabbath, and sometimes the first day of Passover falls on a Sabbath and some of the seder prayers include that match.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

OK here is another one. Since the sabbath begins and ends at sunset, like all days, what do you do if you are far north where there is very little daylight in winter and very little night in summer? How do you decide when sunset is? And perhaps a harder question. Someday men may live on the moon or even Mars. The days and night there are completely different than on earth. What would a Jew do if he was on the moon or Mars? When would a day befin or end?

 

[Wandering Monk]

OK here is another one. Since the sabbath begins and ends at sunset, like all days, what do you do if you are far north where there is very little daylight in winter and very little night in summer? How do you decide when sunset is? And perhaps a harder question. Someday men may live on the moon or even Mars. The days and night there are completely different than on earth. What would a Jew do if he was on the moon or Mars? When would a day befin or end?

Google is your friend:

Jewish law in the polar regions - Wikipedia

 

[metis]

OK here is another one. Since the sabbath begins and ends at sunset, like all days, what do you do if you are far north where there is very little daylight in winter and very little night in summer? How do you decide when sunset is? And perhaps a harder question. Someday men may live on the moon or even Mars. The days and night there are completely different than on earth. What would a Jew do if he was on the moon or Mars? When would a day befin or end?

These are already questions that have been dealt with for centuries now, thus time guides are readily available.

As for Martian inhabitation, the Jewish community there could make that decision as to how to handle it as such powers were granted to Moses' successors by God's command that's covered in Exodus. They also could refer to the Jerusalem Rabbinate for recommendations and/or direction.

 

[Harel13]

Can you tell us about the notion found in Jewish literature that the creation week is a type of the history of the world. (e.g,. b. Sanhedrin 97a)

Well...there is such a notion.
What do you want to know?

 

[metis]

Well...there is such a notion.
What do you want to know?

Since the question was addressed to you, let me recommend that when you answer it that you also explain the formation and use of "commentary" in Judaism.

 

[Tumah]

Thank you....I have a few....
In a post to @IndigoChild5559 I asked some questions that I would like answered.....(highlighted)

My point was, not what Jews of today experience in the Sabbath observance, (because they know nothing else) but how the ancient Jews, to whom the Law was given did not have hundreds of nit-picking definitions added to the restrictions that God clearly outlined for Sabbath observance.
Instead of using common sense,

One thing that is patently obvious from the Torah is that the Torah wasn't given to the common man to interpret. It was given to the judiciary. What seems sensical to the common man, is not always sagacious and may be wrong.

The ancient Jews dealt with the same Biblical Laws as we do. What separates us from them, is that they were more mindful: they didn't need Rabbinic additions to prevent Biblical transgressions, because they were able to be mindful of the Biblical prohibitions and avoid them.

the rabbis turned the restrictions into categories, as it says in Wiki...."The thirty-nine melakhot are not so much activities as categories of activity." Each 'category' needed detailed definitions....some of which were nothing short of ridiculous.
Reading through the restrictions, don't we get a sense of how legally minded the Pharisees were in dictating what is, or isn't part of Sabbath Law?

Activities prohibited on Shabbat - Wikipedia..... Its an interesting read and helps us understand why the Jews stumbled over Jesus, who did not support the rabbinical definitions of "work", whilst he respected the spirit of the law....something he said that the 'legalistic' Pharisees had lost.

I see a lot of subjective judgements here, but nothing really worth arguing against. Where does it say that being legalistic is wrong? On what basis do you claim that the ancient Pharisees were only legalistic? There's nothing of substance here, but it's the entire basis of your position.

In this Wiki list of prohibitions, can you tell me which ones would not have been part of God's original law. i.e. those in the modern era like the rule on electrical items and elevators.....who decided?

You've already answered this above. Once the prohibitions are categorized, we can draw parallels between all types of actions to their counterparts. It's not the particular item that becomes prohibited, but the nature of how it works that determines whether it will be prohibited or not. For instance, there is nothing inherently wrong with an elevator, it's the electronic circuitry that is problematic. There are different opinions on what exactly is wrong with completing a[n electronic] circuit. According to some opinions the problem relates to one of the 39 Biblically prohibited categories and according to other opinions, it's prohibited because it doesn't fit the spirit of the day.

When Jesus and his apostles grabbed a few grains of wheat on their way through a wheat field, they were accused of 'doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath'. (Luke 6:1-5) Is that what God meant when he said no reaping, harvesting and threshing?

No, I'm pretty sure the verse you're referring to is referring to the Sabbatical year, not the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:11-12, on the subject of healing or doing a good deed on the Sabbath....
"[Jesus] said to them: “If you have one sheep and that sheep falls into a pit on the Sabbath, is there a man among you who will not grab hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath.”

Which seems more reasonable to you.....withholding medical treatment (because is not life threatening) because it is a Sabbath, or going and getting a serious wound some medical attention? Or seeing an animal in distress and coming to their aid? What would God want you to do, using some common sense rather than human rules and regulations that were never in God's Law in the first place?

Matthew was a bit misleading and you missed it. There's no prohibition in helping the animal get out of the pit on the Sabbath. Ideally, we're supposed to throw food to it for the duration of the Sabbath and bring it out after the Sabbath. If that's not a possibility, then we're supposed to throw objects that the animal can use to climb out of the pit. What we can't do is pick up the animal.

With regards to medical treatment, there is no such Biblical prohibition. What there is, is a Rabbinical enactment prohibiting medical treatment on the Sabbath in many cases (not all). The reason for this prohibition is because ignorance abounds and an ignorant Jew watching me take an herbal remedy (as many medical treatments were in times past) is likely no aware that I had already prepared the remedy before the Sabbath. They might assume that I've ground the herbs on the spot as needed (and probably as was commonly done) and come to do so themselves on the Sabbath. But grinding herbs on the Sabbath is considered a Biblical prohibition. So I will have been party to their transgression. Because we are all responsible for each other, it's incumbent on me to suffer a little to save my brother or sister from transgressing this serious prohibition.

You are free to practice whatever you wish, but the question is whose laws are you obeying really?

G-d's, obviously.

It is never my intention to bash anyone.....I am just curious as to why Jewish people seem to be enslaved to an old and outdated system of worship that really bears little resemblance to the original.

The difference between us is that where you see a burden, we see a wonderful opportunity.

...and in a nation that is clearly now "part of the political world" allied to nations whose worship they despise. How does that work?

You confuse Judaism with Jewish people.

 

[Tumah]

Yes. I simply do not grant it the air of infallibility that is presumed by many Orthodox.

That's not saying a lot coming from you.

 

[Tumah]

"Awww, gee, do I have to?"

From a Gentile's perspective the Jewish "compulsion" to dot every "i" and cross every "t" in "the law" seems to be just that: "an obsessive compulsion". And, shaking their heads, they breathe a sigh of relief, saying: "Thank God, I wasn't born a Jew", as they walk away.

It was a mystery to me, and has been for over 71 years, ... until someone in RF posted something that turned on a light for me: IMO. It came from out of left field and I wasn't expecting it, but it struck me all the same. The person wrote: "Gratitude is the basis of any rational morality." So, is that what's happening here? Is what some view as an obsessive compulsion with details actually a deep desire to show gratitude, ... with all one's heart and with all one's soul and all one's strength?

The answer to this is a difference in perspective on the Law. Christians view the Law as a burden, so you minimize it to as much as possible. We see each Law as a diamond, another opportunity to serve G-d, so we maximize it as much as possible. Every detail is the shining of another facet of the stone.

 

[Tumah]

From my experience on the nursing staff at an Orthodox nursing home I remember the expression 'to make Shabbat' as women visitors would leave to be home in time.
For the residents all the laws mentioned applied. More than anything else I admire that so much of the Sabbath obligation is in the home as contrasted to most other religious obligations are met in the public service and then off to shopping etc. I also understood that the study of Scripture was important part. The Orthodox living in my neighborhood do so to be within walking distance of the synagogue as driving is not allowed or the restriction on how far one can carry.

There is no restriction on how far one can carry. It's determined by an area delimited by the eiruv, not the distance.

 

[Tumah]

Can you tell us about the notion found in Jewish literature that the creation week is a type of the history of the world. (e.g,. b. Sanhedrin 97a)

It's related to the notion of fractals.

 

[Tumah]

With all the changes that have taken place in calendars over yje centuries, are you confident that Saturday is truly the seventh day of the week? Can you trace it all the way back to the beginning? Maybe a day or more got overlooked at some point.

Is there any reason to believe so?

 

[Tumah]

Don't forget to cut the electrical service to your home...
you don't want all those power company employees "working" for you, while you "rest"'
Or do you ?

Gentiles are permitted to work on the Sabbath. The problem would be requesting them to perform labor for us or having them specifically labor for us. That's obviously not the case here.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Yes as there are weekly Sabbaths, such as Pesach (the week of Passover).

What one might call a "high day" may or may not be a Sabbath, and sometimes the first day of Passover falls on a Sabbath and some of the seder prayers include that match.

Let me go just a little further please. Let's say that maybe the first day of unleavened bread falls on Thursday. Even though it might not be called a sabbath, would the same rules apply as for a sabbath? No work, no travel, etc. Would the people act the same as if it was a Saturday? I ask because some people believe Christ died on a Wednesday and had to be buried quickly because the next day was the first day of unleavened bread and the rules for a sabbath applied. I am not saying I agree but wonder if there is any way such a situation could occur. If the first day of unleavened bread was on a Thursday, would it be called a "high day" and would sabbath rules apply. Really would like to see if such a thing might in any way be possible.

 

[Tumah]

Jewish perspective: why did God rest? (Genesis 2:2)

The word doesn't literally mean to rest (which is actually the meaning of no'aḥ), it means to cease. So your question is, why did G-d cease to create on the 7th day. The verse says that everything was done at the conclusion of the 6th day. It stands to reason that G-d would cease to create once the creation was done. Maybe your question is different.

 

[Harel13]

Let me go just a little further please. Let's say that maybe the first day of unleavened bread falls on Thursday. Even though it might not be called a sabbath, would the same rules apply as for a sabbath? No work, no travel, etc. Would the people act the same as if it was a Saturday? I ask because some people believe Christ died on a Wednesday and had to be buried quickly because the next day was the first day of unleavened bread and the rules for a sabbath applied. I am not saying I agree but wonder if there is any way such a situation could occur. If the first day of unleavened bread was on a Thursday, would it be called a "high day" and would sabbath rules apply. Really would like to see if such a thing might in any way be possible.

There are some differences between a Shabbat and a holiday. For example, there are some things that can be cooked on a holiday, which is not allowed on Shabbat. In which case, I think people were aware of the differences between the days.

 

[Tumah]

Perhaps you could give some views from someone who has experience with both sides. Is any day associated with the Passover every called a "sabbath" or a " high day"? Is there a difference between a sabbath and a high day? Especially the first day of unleavened bread. High day? Sabbath? And if it falls on some day other than Saturday, is it still called the same thing? What are your thoughts on this? Please.

All of the holidays are called "Sabbath" as they are have a required cessation from creative activities (which is what the word sabbath means). There are a bunch of examples in Lev. 23.
There is no day called a "high day", but the Sabbath before Passover is called the "Great Sabbath".
Passover (the holiday) and the Festival of Unleavened Bread are the same thing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That's not saying a lot coming from you.

Meaning?