The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[tariqkhwaja]

If God took away our free agency and forced us into anything, He would no longer be God.

We are talking of eternal hell and not hell, itself. It is God's Justice those who chose bad should go to hell. But God's Mercy is over and above Justice (not contradicting it, of course) and ensures that eventually, those in hell will understand and God will switch them to heaven.

The question could be raised here that would it not be unfair that eventually everyone gets to be in the same place. But the answer is that there are different stations of nearness to God. The nearer you were, the loftier the station. In fact, the nearness, itself, is heaven. The opposite being hell.

Therefore, although, eventually everyone will be in heaven, there will always be those nearer to God than others being rewarded for their acts in this world. As the hell-bound become heaven-bound, so the heaven-bound get ever more closer to God, thus Justice is maintained and, simultaneously, so is God's Mercy.

 

[mickiel]

We are talking of eternal hell and not hell, itself. It is God's Justice those who chose bad should go to hell. But God's Mercy is over and above Justice (not contradicting it, of course) and ensures that eventually, those in hell will understand and God will switch them to heaven.

The question could be raised here that would it not be unfair that eventually everyone gets to be in the same place. But the answer is that there are different stations of nearness to God. The nearer you were, the loftier the station. In fact, the nearness, itself, is heaven. The opposite being hell.

Therefore, although, eventually everyone will be in heaven, there will always be those nearer to God than others being rewarded for their acts in this world. As the hell-bound become heaven-bound, so the heaven-bound get ever more closer to God, thus Justice is maintained and, simultaneously, so is God's Mercy.

Well I am not too far from this explination, but I have just moved to the point of not trying to squezzing hell into my belief and make some kind of room for its need. I don't think God needs hell. I don't think he needs misery to be eternal. He of course is using it, but his use of it is just misunderstood.

And this is why we misinterpit the bible.

Peace.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Of course God does not need Hell. Nor does He need Eternal Hell.

Its just that Hell is necessary to serve the purpose of Justice because those who are pure and do good in this world can not be the same as those who are evil and make every selfish effort to ruin the world.

Eternal Hell, however, is unnecessary once the convict has learnt the error in his/her ways. Medicine is sour and recovery is a painful process but the pain ends once recovery is complete.

 

[mickiel]

Its just that Hell is necessary to serve the purpose of Justice because those who are pure and do good in this world can not be the same as those who are evil and make every selfish effort to ruin the world.

.

Well again, I disagree with hell being something God needs or uses to administer justice. Hell is the grave, a firey hell is just a place of death. Now I would agree that the Lake of Fire is going to be used by God to do certain things with that could certainly punish and sterilize humans, but hell is not the Lake of Fire.

Peace.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Hmm ... well our concepts of heaven and hell differ then. My concept of Hell is the very knowledge that spending a life choosing to severe ties with the One True God ... that is Hell. I believe that:

When a baby is born without an arm he does not realize what he is missing. Because his conscience can not comprehend what the loss of an arm is. But as the baby grows his conscience begins to evolve and the value of the lost arm becomes apparent to him. Very much like that death without a connection with God becomes truly hellish once a person's conscience evolves after death and his soul realizes that the lack of a connection with God is a huge loss.

I am slightly digressing here but the void in our hearts we fill using music, love of family, love of movies, love of lust, etc. are all finite and are not available in the hereafter. Yet, our soul is so used to them. So having the habit of something and for it to be swiped from you all of a sudden ... forever ... that is hell. Furthermore, God is the only thing that can fill that void once we die but a lack of a connection with Him leaves us unprepared to be close to him. However, this conscience and realization will cause the hell-bound to suffer and after sufficient suffering the hell-bound would have learnt their lesson and be sent to heaven.

 

[mickiel]

Hmm ... well our concepts of heaven and hell differ then. My concept of Hell is the very knowledge that spending a life choosing to severe ties with the One True God ... that is Hell. I believe that:
.

If God ordains you to be a vessell of unbelief, thats just what you are going to be, you just don't think he would make a vessell of unbelief. He is the master potter, he made all in the bible who didnot believe, he made their unbelief. He predestined Judas to do what he did, and all who sin, sin because of Gods will to accomplish his intent. Thus, hell is meaningless because I am aware that God is both the author of both good and evil, he planted the tree that roots to them both.

Thus neither one can condemn a human, or give a cause or reason for hell to be a need of God.

Peace.

 

[idea]

no eternal hell?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 17:12 ... none of them is lost, but the son of perdition;

the sons of perdition are lost.

Matt 12:31 ...the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I think that very few (if any) are sons of perdition, very few will experience the second death. It exists though - only the devil would have you think otherwise...

If God ordains you to be a vessell of unbelief, thats just what you are going to be, you just don't think he would make a vessell of unbelief. He is the master potter, he made all in the bible who didnot believe, he made their unbelief. He predestined Judas to do what he did, and all who sin, sin because of Gods will to accomplish his intent. Thus, hell is meaningless because I am aware that God is both the author of both good and evil, he planted the tree that roots to them both.

Thus neither one can condemn a human, or give a cause or reason for hell to be a need of God.

Peace.

God made their unbelief? predestination? In order to rationalize salvation for everyone you have turned God into a monster.

God did NOT create everything. As I posted on another thread, please understand what "create" really means
- it means form, organize, refine, mold - what already exists.

link from ancient-Hebrew.org
"The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. While we see God as one who makes something from nothing (create), the Hebrews saw God like a bird who goes about acquiring and gathering materials to build a nest"

God is NOT responsible for "creating" all the horrors in the world! He is cleaning up a mess that He did not create. He only refines what allows itself to be refined. Please stop teaching such horrible things about God. He is not responsible for hell, or unbelief, or any of the suffering in the world. We are not predestined, we control our own character. To say otherwise is to see God as a monster.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

If God ordains you to be a vessell of unbelief, thats just what you are going to be, you just don't think he would make a vessell of unbelief. He is the master potter, he made all in the bible who didnot believe, he made their unbelief. He predestined Judas to do what he did, and all who sin, sin because of Gods will to accomplish his intent. Thus, hell is meaningless because I am aware that God is both the author of both good and evil, he planted the tree that roots to them both.
Thus neither one can condemn a human, or give a cause or reason for hell to be a need of God.
Peace.

Well, you are basically saying we don't have free will and everything is predestined, therefore, there is no punishment or reward.
So that is a completely different question: we answered it in other places on this forum like this one:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-vs-religion/67120-do-you-believe-free-will.html

 

[BucephalusBB]

Hmm ... ....... ... forever ... that is hell. Furthermore, God is the only thing that can fill that void once we die but a lack of a connection with Him leaves us unprepared to be close to him. However, this conscience and realization will cause the hell-bound to suffer and after sufficient suffering the hell-bound would have learnt their lesson and be sent to heaven.

So for not seeing that wich doesn't show himself to me, I need to learn a lesson? And the lesson is hell?
Hell is like school then?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Hell is like a sour medicine that leads to painful recovery. Hell is like when you change from being a teenager to an adult. Hell is like when men and women stop being kids and finally mature. It is all somewhat painful ... well more than that.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Hell is like a sour medicine that leads to painful recovery. Hell is like when you change from being a teenager to an adult. Hell is like when men and women stop being kids and finally mature. It is all somewhat painful ... well more than that.

the change from teenager to adult wasn't a pain for me. Based upon my feelings, the process itself would be closer to heaven. So are we talking personal experiences here? Because then I can completelly understand you..

 

[mickiel]

no eternal hell?


God is NOT responsible for "creating" all the horrors in the world! He is cleaning up a mess that He did not create. He only refines what allows itself to be refined. Please stop teaching such horrible things about God. He is not responsible for hell, or unbelief, or any of the suffering in the world. We are not predestined, we control our own character. To say otherwise is to see God as a monster.

Stop teaching such horrible things about God? Eternal hell damnation is the most horrible thing taught about God that I am aware of. God IS, and he IS responsible for ALL things, and I for one am very grateful of that. Again John 1:3;" ALL THINGS came into being by Him." EVERYTHING that IS, is because of Jesus, who was directed by God to bring ALL things into existance. What makes you believe that Evil and sin is excluded from ALL THINGS? The Devil exist, Sin exist, Death exist, ALL THINGS were brought INTO existence by Jesus! He is thus responsible for it.

Peace.

 

[Ciarin]

How about there is no hell or damnation? Hwo about when you die, you just go to another place?

 

[mickiel]

How about there is no hell or damnation? Hwo about when you die, you just go to another place?

How about looking at John 1:3, ALL things were brought into being by Christ. Why would Christ bring things into existence, and then not be responsible for doing that? I don't care if its a test of sorts, if the test is administered, the teacher is still responsible for the test. He constructed the test, whoever fails it, are still failing a test he administered.

If life is a test of free will, God still is responsible for that, not humans. But God is unlike humans, who hold each other responsible for the outcome, God DETERMINES the outcome, and this is sorely misunderstood. In HIM we live and have our being, IN HIM we fail or pass the test. Its according to him, NOT us!

But if we take this responsibility unto ourselves, then all of our interpitations makes sense to us, because that makes us responsible. And salvation then ignores what Christ has done, and puts emphisis on what we do.

Which is absurd.

Peace.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

the change from teenager to adult wasn't a pain for me. Based upon my feelings, the process itself would be closer to heaven. So are we talking personal experiences here? Because then I can completelly understand you..

Just forget the teenager example. (I knew I shouldn't have used it). And do with the other two examples.

 

[mickiel]

Eternal hell suffering is a sick concept, it opposes what God is really all about, and challanges HIS ability to save and extend his power, multiplyed by his grace and mercy. In a numerical sense, all have sinned and fallen short of Gods Concepts of Life, thus I think it falls to God to numerically offer a great solution to this human problem of sin and evil. To blame Adam, one man, for the offset of sin to all his generate, is so unfair, it is rediculus. Because of Adam, we all are condemned. Yet God used that same pathology, that same mathmatics, and through the act of one man, Jesus Christ, that same All are now not condemned, we are saved through his one act of redemption. And to the righteous mind, this also seems unfair, that all unbelieving and God rejecting sinners are now saved, is just as unfair as all being condemned for the act of one person.

A most unusual scale of justice, but yet nonetheless very true.

It balances out to all being saved in my book, and it seems the bible book as well.

Peace.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Eternal hell is injustice. The Christian doctrine of Adam's sin (and how we suffer for it) and Jesus' redemption of sin (and how, somehow, belief in him saves us from it) is also unjust. But I am not proposing either of them. The "unusual" scale of justice can not be true and humans can not be expected to believe in it. It makes no reasonable sense.

What I propose about hell not being eternal but curative until cured is far more reasonable and makes sense ... or at least I think so.

 

[BucephalusBB]

Eternal hell is injustice. The Christian doctrine of Adam's sin (and how we suffer for it) and Jesus' redemption of sin (and how, somehow, belief in him saves us from it) is also unjust. But I am not proposing either of them. The "unusual" scale of justice can not be true and humans can not be expected to believe in it. It makes no reasonable sense.

What I propose about hell not being eternal but curative until cured is far more reasonable and makes sense ... or at least I think so.

Like going to prison for a few years?
And can this also be the opposite? Going back to hell? Or is it one way only?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

It is one way. Though I wonder why. I am not sure if according to Islam we will have a choice in the afterlife to do bad as we do on Earth.

According to my understanding in the afterlife the same soul will continue in a different "body". In the afterlife our conscience will increase. So in this world we do not see fire but smoke and assume there to be fire nearby. But that is not the same as seeing the fire. In the hereafter we will see the fire ... i.e. the truth will become so blatently apparent to us that even the most dishonest will be forced to accept it. And the realization of the truth to such a great degree will be hell for the dishonest and heaven for the honest. And as time progresses truth will become as evident as the belief in fire after you put your hand inside it.

So I am guessing it is one way because of the above. Because the truth will be so apparent that we will not commit sin anymore. In this world the truth is somewhat covert ... I mean seeing fire is not the same as seeing smoke and assuming fire ... and it is definetly not the same as putting your hand inside the fire.

 

[mickiel]

Hell is simply the grave, death wrapped up in the flesh and placed into dirt or fire.

And God will eventually throw these into a lake of fire, and that is the second death, the death of the first death.

Peace.