-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.
- Thread starter mickiel
- Start date
Thief
Rogue Theologian
mickiel
Well-Known Member
groovyable
Member
This is my personal view....
If a young child boy/girl was playing in the living room and knocked a glass varse and broke it, would you personally repect a parent to grab the arm of the child and place it in a fire place to burn the child as a punishment?
If a young child boy/girl was playing in the living room and knocked a glass varse and broke it, would you personally repect a parent to grab the arm of the child and place it in a fire place to burn the child as a punishment?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Do you believe in hell?
rkm7878
RKM7878
First, a God who would send people to hell simply for not believing would be a strange one in my opinion.
Now there seems to be an implication in most of the replys that we are talking about the God of the Bible. But I am sorry to tell you all that the God of the Bible created man to have a personal relationship with Him. If you created a robot and left it no choice in matters could you say that your robot loved you? No. You can not call being forced into something love. God gave man a choice. Be in a relationship with me and do not eat this fruit (the choice) and you will live forever. At the first sign of temptation man failed. Now I have to ask you a question. Do you believe in good and evil, right and wrong? If so look at the posistion God is now in. God promised that if man ate of the fruit he would die. God must keep his word. Also God being perfect requires perfection. Now at this point some want to talk about God's ego or some such idea because they are trying to view God as a person and not as GOD. Your weak attempts to call God childish show that you are arrogant by all human standards. If God is what we would recognize as good then Satan is what we would call bad, and not in the red tail and pitch fork way, but in the child molester, murderer, rapist kind of way. In order to maintain His holiness God must have no part in wrong doing so he seperates man (who was created to be in a loving relationship with Him) from Himself. Now that man knows good and evil God informs them through His law that they have a choice to do wrong and be punished or do right and be rewarded. Mankind is over and over again unable to do right. God created man to have a relationship do you think God did not know the choices man would make? He did and He had a plan ready to right that relationship. First man needed to see that the law could not save him because man could not keep the law. Then God would send a savior. How would he save them? By keeping the law that man could not keep and then taking on the punishment that was meant for those who would be seperated from God because of their sin. Now the price is paid. It is finished. All who trust in Jesus Christ will be saved. What about those who do not trust in Him? Imagine for a moment that you are able to create life. You allow the life form to have a choice of loving you or not loving you. Being with you or not being with you. Is it fair that you have allowed them this choice? Would it be fair if you did not allow them this choice? Now imagine that you are Holy and perfect and good. Apart from you there is no good not because you have an ego problem but because it is who you are. This is how it is with God apart from Him there is no good because it is who He is. So if you reject Him you will cause yourself to be apart from the one who created you to have good things and a good life and you will enter into a place where there is no good. Apart from God is evil and not the kind with a red tail and pitch fork. As for those who have never heard of Jesus God will be their judge not us. But for all who have heard and in their arrogance reject Him because they think they know better than the God who created them hell is their reward. Hell= seperation from God from Good and eternal life in what is left away from the source of all good. I do not serve an evil God but one who loves me and has saved me even though I turned my back on Him.
Thank you God, I am so greatful!
Now there seems to be an implication in most of the replys that we are talking about the God of the Bible. But I am sorry to tell you all that the God of the Bible created man to have a personal relationship with Him. If you created a robot and left it no choice in matters could you say that your robot loved you? No. You can not call being forced into something love. God gave man a choice. Be in a relationship with me and do not eat this fruit (the choice) and you will live forever. At the first sign of temptation man failed. Now I have to ask you a question. Do you believe in good and evil, right and wrong? If so look at the posistion God is now in. God promised that if man ate of the fruit he would die. God must keep his word. Also God being perfect requires perfection. Now at this point some want to talk about God's ego or some such idea because they are trying to view God as a person and not as GOD. Your weak attempts to call God childish show that you are arrogant by all human standards. If God is what we would recognize as good then Satan is what we would call bad, and not in the red tail and pitch fork way, but in the child molester, murderer, rapist kind of way. In order to maintain His holiness God must have no part in wrong doing so he seperates man (who was created to be in a loving relationship with Him) from Himself. Now that man knows good and evil God informs them through His law that they have a choice to do wrong and be punished or do right and be rewarded. Mankind is over and over again unable to do right. God created man to have a relationship do you think God did not know the choices man would make? He did and He had a plan ready to right that relationship. First man needed to see that the law could not save him because man could not keep the law. Then God would send a savior. How would he save them? By keeping the law that man could not keep and then taking on the punishment that was meant for those who would be seperated from God because of their sin. Now the price is paid. It is finished. All who trust in Jesus Christ will be saved. What about those who do not trust in Him? Imagine for a moment that you are able to create life. You allow the life form to have a choice of loving you or not loving you. Being with you or not being with you. Is it fair that you have allowed them this choice? Would it be fair if you did not allow them this choice? Now imagine that you are Holy and perfect and good. Apart from you there is no good not because you have an ego problem but because it is who you are. This is how it is with God apart from Him there is no good because it is who He is. So if you reject Him you will cause yourself to be apart from the one who created you to have good things and a good life and you will enter into a place where there is no good. Apart from God is evil and not the kind with a red tail and pitch fork. As for those who have never heard of Jesus God will be their judge not us. But for all who have heard and in their arrogance reject Him because they think they know better than the God who created them hell is their reward. Hell= seperation from God from Good and eternal life in what is left away from the source of all good. I do not serve an evil God but one who loves me and has saved me even though I turned my back on Him.
Thank you God, I am so greatful!
Wow, what an excellent ^above^ illustration you present to us.
Who would even punish a bad dog by roasting it over a fire yet a child?
The Pagan hell was one of literal fire.
The Biblical hell is mankind's common grave for the sleeping dead until resurrection morning or Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth.
[Ecclesiastes 9v5,10; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13; John 11vs11-14; Acts 24v15]
After the first century ended a mixing or blending began of pagan ideas incorporated into Scripture. That is why Jesus gave the illustration of the wheat and the weeds. Genuine Christian wheat would grow together with fake Christian weeds. They would grow together over the centuries until the harvest time of separation. That includes the separation of the sheep and goat-type people of Matthew [25vs31,32] that are still alive on earth at the time Jesus takes action to rid the earth of all badness.
Eternal punishment in the Bible is equated with destruction or annihilation.
[Psalm 92v7; 2nd Thess. 1v9, 2v8; Revelation 19vs11,14,15; Isaiah 11v4]
So when Jesus talked about hell or Gehenna [hellfire] he was talking about destruction because Gehenna was a garbage dump where things were destroyed and not kept burning forever.
Even Satan, according to Hebrews [2v14 B], is to be destroyed.
All of Satan's bad works will also be destroyed. - 1st John 3v8 B.
Can you think of someone who was Not arrogant and did Not reject God but ended up in hell anyway?___________
Did you know hell comes to an end?________
Please see Revelation 20vs13,14.
Doesn't it say all in hell will be 'delivered up'?________
So if all in hell are delivered up or resurrected, then hell ends up empty during Jesus 1000-year rule over earth.
Doesn't that mean hell is temporary and not a permanent place?______
Then please notice that emptied-out, vacant, void of people hell dies a symbolic death a second death of no returning.
Except for those of Matthew [12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6] who commit the unforgivable sin, all the rest will have a resurrection. -Acts 24v15.
Then Jesus will see to it that our last enemy will be destroyed.
According to 1st Cor [15v26] that last enemy to be destroyed is death.
So both hell and death go out of existence.
That is why Rev. [21vs4,5] can say that: death will be no more.
Swallowed up forever as Isaiah wrote us [25v8].
The person that never rejected God but was in hell according to Acts [2vs27,31; Psalm 16v10] was Jesus.
Jesus believed the dead sleep the deep sleep of death until they are resurrected. [John 11vs11-14]. Even as the word cemetery means sleeping place, then the Biblical hell is the common grave of mankind.
Some resurrected to heavenly life to rule with Jesus, and the rest to be resurrected to earthly life with the prospect of living forever right here on a paradisaic earth as Daniel looked forward [12vs2,13].
rkm7878
RKM7878
Very interseting thoughts. I believe what I believe about God's word but I also know that we all will be surprised by many things that we thought we had right. Nice trick about Jesus going to hell your comment is true I am not so sure about what you are trying to say that it means. That was God's design to allow Jesus to pay the price for all of mankind. It does not seem right to us but we are all created beings not gods.
'god' is a title not a personal name.
The judges of ancient Israel were termed as 'gods'.
Yes, even Jesus believed we are all created. Jesus believes he is the beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3v14 b.
So that means besides Jesus all angels and humans are created.
Yes, God did send or allow Jesus to pay the price for all of mankind.
However, not all of mankind accept Jesus and that is why Matthew [20v28] says Jesus ransom is for 'many' and does not say all.
Since death is the price sin pays, then death stamps the price tag of sin as Paid In Full. No further suffering payment is required.
Please see Romans 6v7.
So Jesus being in hell means he died.
Jesus believed the dead are not conscious but in a deep sleep like state as he described his dead friend at John 11vs11-14.
Please notice what the Psalmist say about the dead. 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4
So the Biblical hell, not pagan hell, is the common grave of mankind. The dead sleep until resurrection morning or in other words, will be awakened on resurrection day which is Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth. -Acts 24v15.
Last edited:
Yes all humans were created. The word angel means messenger and can be a divine messenger or man.
BUT we were created in God's image. God is a spirit, so human beings have a spirit just like God.
Yes the soul needs to be save; but the spirit belongs to God who sent it.
Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 (King James Version)
6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
BUT we were created in God's image. God is a spirit, so human beings have a spirit just like God.
Yes the soul needs to be save; but the spirit belongs to God who sent it.
Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 (King James Version)
6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
8Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.
That is because the God you see in this world is the religous god not Jesus the Lamb of God who is a savior not a MONSTER.
Yes both man and angels can be God's messengers.
We are created in God's image.
Not in his form, but we all can reflect God's attributes or qualities of love, justice and wisdom to varying degrees.
Humans do not go by instinct but inborn conscience.
-Romans 2 vs12-15; 1Tim 4v2
What happened to Adam's spirit when Adam died? -Gen 2v17
What will happen to Satan's spirit when Jesus destroys Satan?- Heb 2v14 b
At Ecc 12v7 the Hebrew word translated spirit or life breath is : ruahh.
The corresponding Greek term translated into English is: breath.
That is why Psalm 104v30 says God sends forth his spirit [holy] and they are created... Verse 29 says take away their 'breath' they die.
The dead know nothing- Ecclesiastes 9v5,10; Psalm 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4
Adam did not become a living soul [Gen 2v7] until he received the breath [ruahh]of life. At death Adam lost the breath [ruahh] of life and became a dead soul. -Ezekiel 18vs4,20
Sometimes we hear the expression, "My life is in your hands"
In other words a person's life is out of his own hands.
What will become of his future life rests with a judge.
So what will become of the dead rests with God having Jesus resurrect one or not.
Those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6 commit the unforgivable sin.
So the power of life rests with God meaning only God can restore life or restore one's spirit or life force in order to live again either in heaven
[Rev 5vs9,10;20v6], or everlastingly on earth. -Matt 25vs32,46.
.
The god we see in this world of badness according to 2nd Corinthians 4v4 is Satan. Satan may be religious but religiously false to God and his Christ.
Because of Satan's influence using greedy people we see world wide that the world's religious sector has run amok playing false to God and Jesus.
James identifies Godly religion or worship at James 1v27 to look after widows, orphans and keep oneself without spot from the world. -The world spotted with Satan's religious badness.
Please post the verse not the verse reference it gets confusing enough at times.
Satan will go to Tartarus.
Adam spirit will return to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Yes I understand your point on breath but two things happened to Genesis with Adam on to separate days.
Mans spirit is not his soul; yes the breath of life was placed into Adam after God lowered him from the realm pure spirit, to the realm of dust (serpent food) but when God created Adam in his image Adam was created with a spirit not a soul for god is not a soul.
1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
*****Sixth day*****
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; this is where the Bible refers to the word ruahh you mentioned.
New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man and god gave this soulish man breath ruahh.
Yes the soul life will die; but not the spirit as I just pointed out.
Mans spirit does not need to be restored it is his soul; that needs to be restored; but the essence of who and what we are will never die; that part of us that was created in Gods image and likeness. GREAT POSTING Nice to see Gods people think instead of hide in their man made religious box when things get tough.
It is more then that...There are two Churches in the in the Bible; the true church and Baby-lon; the true church is with in us; the false church is religion.
Baby-lon is a golden up in the hands of the Lord… In other words God uses baby-lon but his true Church are His out called.
ecclesia” Greek called out
God calls men not systems. The broad way that leads destruction is religion; men do not follow Christ they follow their Pastor/Priest or Pope, their denomination their system ; not God’s anointing. Church is a Greek Word “ecclesia” which simply means the called out. There is a true Church and a false Church; Baby lon is the false church; while the true Church is not a building, a system, denomination but Christ with in us, the hope of Glory.
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. KJV
Heb. 13:13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach
Revelation 18:3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.
God is a spirit.
God uses Baby lon as shown by the verse above; but there is so much more.
I prefer the Webster definition: Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
Religious From James 1:26 NT:2357 threskos (thrace'-kos); probably from the base of NT:2360; ceremonious in worship (as demonstrative), i.e. pious:
NT:2360 throeo (thro-eh'-o); from threomai (to wail); to clamor, i.e. (by implication) to frighten:
(Message) 26-27Anyone who sets himself up as "religious" by talking a good game is self-deceived. This kind of religion is hot air and only hot air. Real religion, the kind that passes muster before God the Father, is this: Reach out to the homeless and loveless in their plight, and guard against corruption from the godless world.
(AMP) 26If anyone thinks himself to be religious (piously observant of the external duties of his faith) and does not bridle his tongue but deludes his own heart, this person's religious service is worthless (futile, barren).
Last edited:
You can give Satan all the glory you want to but the earth is the Lords and Satan has no control unless God ordains it. I have people say that Satan is the ruler of the world; but where?
Deuteronomy 10:14
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
Psalm 24:1
The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
1 Corinthians 10:26
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
Corinthians 10:28 But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof
Deuteronomy 10:14
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
Psalm 24:1
The earth is the LORD's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
1 Corinthians 10:26
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
Corinthians 10:28 But if any man say unto you, this is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof
This is when and how we should worship; not religion but:
John 4:7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8(For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem (religion) is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8(For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem (religion) is the place where men ought to worship.
21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.