The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Beta]

I am not claiming anything for myself but I do read and believe scripture.
Did Jesus not build his church and say the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ? Meaning it would not be destroyed or die out.
Does scripture not say some (does not give a number) would be alive at the return of Christ ?
These have to apply to SOMEBODY alive on this earth today ????????????
Why do you then say you don't believe any of it yet claim to get your understanding from scripture ?

 

[mickiel]

I am not claiming anything for myself but I do read and believe scripture.
Did Jesus not build his church and say the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ? Meaning it would not be destroyed or die out.
Does scripture not say some (does not give a number) would be alive at the return of Christ ?
These have to apply to SOMEBODY alive on this earth today ????????????
Why do you then say you don't believe any of it yet claim to get your understanding from scripture ?

No Beta, its not today. I think its possible that some people who God may yet call are alive now, but they are not called and chosen now. The Spirit may be with them, but it is not yet in them. The sign of the true church of God will be this,Gal. 5:22, all of the members will have Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control, comming out of them constantly, because they will have the true Spirit of God in them. BECAUSE of that, they will be the salt of the earth, and be like a city on a hill that cannot be hidden, the whole world will reconize this.

And I don't care what you believe, there is no church like this on earth yet.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

No Beta, its not today. I think its possible that some people who God may yet call are alive now, but they are not called and chosen now. The Spirit may be with them, but it is not yet in them. The sign of the true church of God will be this,Gal. 5:22, all of the members will have Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control, comming out of them constantly, because they will have the true Spirit of God in them. BECAUSE of that, they will be the salt of the earth, and be like a city on a hill that cannot be hidden, the whole world will reconize this.

And I don't care what you believe, there is no church like this on earth yet.

Peace.

In addition Beta, and now this is just MY opinion, I am not sure of this, but I think WHEN God does call out his church, according to MY understanding of scripture, it will be just like he called out the first original church of God. He will gather all of the people together in one place and give it to them all at the same time, just as he did in the living book of Acts.

They will be peoples from all over this earth, of all races and cultures. And God himself will make this possible. And buddy, IF they will have Ministers or Leaders, those men or women, I think are going to be quite something! But I kind of think that the Holy Spirit ITSELF, will lead them, so its possible that there will be no Pastor per say, I just don't really know.

I hope that I live to see this for myself.

Could I be wrong, well yes, of course I could.

But Beta, this is what is in my Spirit understanding.

Peace.

 

[Beta]

And I don't care what you believe, there is no church like this on earth yet.
Peace.

Are you telling me you know every church on earth ?
OK friend have it your way., all I can say is God is leaving it all a bit late seeing Christ is about to set off on his way back. Do you realize how long it takes to prepare people or a church with all the wonderful qualities of God ? Just look at Job,40odd chapters before he saw the light and he was a godly man to start with (or so he thought). And what about all the other Saints mentioned ? Lifelong service and training in righteousness for them too. People are not that quick to learn. Oh I forgot, your God is going to force them into submission. Think they will be happy converts ???? :sad4:

 

[mickiel]

OK friend have it your way., all I can say is God is leaving it all a bit late seeing Christ is about to set off on his way back. Do you realize how long it takes to prepare people or a church with all the wonderful qualities of God ? Just look at Job,40odd chapters before he saw the light and he was a godly man to start with (or so he thought). And what about all the other Saints mentioned ? Lifelong service and training in righteousness for them too. People are not that quick to learn. Oh I forgot, your God is going to force them into submission. Think they will be happy converts ???? :sad4:

Man it didn't take God long to prepare his church, he did it in a day. Were talking about GOD man, God is the master of preperation, and we cannot limit him to some time period.

But I will say this much: God may well be preparring people now. Many people. Many can be called but just not yet chosen as of now. When the Holy Spirit is teaching, thats not based on the ability of the human to learn, its based on the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach.

Peacfe.

 

[Beta]

mickiel , after reading your last post which was quite nice and humble I feel ashamed for being so hard on you - I'm :sorry1: , will try to mend my ways. But we have had our horns locked for so long it's not easy.
But hey mick, you are teaching me something here and i'm grateful.
I may be in my 80s and female to boot but I'm never too old to learn.
All I'll have to do now is remember it !!!!:help:

 

[mickiel]

mickiel , after reading your last post which was quite nice and humble I feel ashamed for being so hard on you - I'm :sorry1: , will try to mend my ways. But we have had our horns locked for so long it's not easy.
But hey mick, you are teaching me something here and i'm grateful.
I may be in my 80s and female to boot but I'm never too old to learn.
All I'll have to do now is remember it !!!!:help:

Well I understand that, I can be hard on others at times myself, but I have learned much from women in my life. You know we learn from who and what we learn from, which is not always comfortable.

I have been teaching for a long time, and learning for a long time.

Listen, its not as easy as some may think. Our traditional ways can be a great blockage to the entering of new truth.

Peace.

 

[Beta]

Man it didn't take God long to prepare his church, he did it in a day. Were talking about GOD man, God is the master of preperation, and we cannot limit him to some time period.

But I will say this much: God may well be preparring people now. Many people. Many can be called but just not yet chosen as of now. When the Holy Spirit is teaching, thats not based on the ability of the human to learn, its based on the ability of the Holy Spirit to teach.
Peacfe.

lol - :sorry1: mick again for laughing , I really shouldn't after only just turning over a new leaf. Jesus prepared his church in one day ???? you cant be serious. He called them together in one day but it took a lot longer and his constant presence to teach them and even then they were not perfect.
Sorry - next disagreement. You just said we can not limit God so how can you then put restricted abilities on the Holy Spirit ? It's all down to OUR restricted abilities. Jesus says we are slow to learn.

 

[Beta]

Listen, its not as easy as some may think. Our traditional ways can be a great blockage to the entering of new truth.

Peace.

Friend - you have never spoken a truer word !!!!
I was RC most of my life.

 

[mickiel]

lol - :sorry1: mick again for laughing , I really shouldn't after only just turning over a new leaf. Jesus prepared his church in one day ???? you cant be serious. He called them together in one day but it took a lot longer and his constant presence to teach them and even then they were not perfect.
Sorry - next disagreement. You just said we can not limit God so how can you then put restricted abilities on the Holy Spirit ? It's all down to OUR restricted abilities. Jesus says we are slow to learn.

Well we do disagree, it was not long. Jesus ministry was in fact very short, 3 years only really. In fact on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, they were all together in " One Place", and they ALL were filled with Gods Spirit. It was an instant thing Beta, what God did to these peoples lives BEFORE this event, we just don't know. In verse 23 it mentions " The Predetermined Plan of God". I base my views on that, when God predetermines someones calling, they need no preperation, they have Gods doings to stabilize them. Its based on God, not them.

When God called Paul, I see absolutely nothing in his piror life that we can call preperation, it was instant conversion in a nutshell.

So God can really do it either way, he can prepare someone, or just instantly change them in a second. We cannot limit him.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Anyhow, let me get back to subject, the sick concept of eternal hell suffering. The " Swelling in the religious mind" which would see humans suffer forever. Listen, God IS eternity, he is forever and ever, and religious people believe he would condemn humans to pain forever. And I have constantly tried to give these beliefs a picture of " Forever", because they pass off this belief with no real concept of what " Forever pain would be like."

I appeal to the reality of it at times. Lets say that I slap you in the face one time. You can recover and survive that. But lets say I did it, every 5 seconds, for everyday of the week, for just one year! Just that, could you survive it? It would eventually drive you insane.

And to believe that God would allow something simular to this, to go on forever, is an insane belief within itself.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

The sick concept of eternal constant pain, is an illusion, which religion embraces. Worst than the electric chair, its like excuting someone but keeping them conscious and continually feeding them the power of torture - forever.

Its insane.

Peace.

 

[Beta]

So God can really do it either way, he can prepare someone, or just instantly change them in a second. We cannot limit him.
Peace.

Yes I agree. God can call any which way he wants but from biblical examples 'instant' calling is much much rarer than those called to a long hard uphill struggle which is the lot of most.:sad4:

 

[Beta]

Anyhow, let me get back to subject, the sick concept of eternal hell suffering. The " Swelling in the religious mind" which would see humans suffer forever. Listen, God IS eternity, he is forever and ever, and religious people believe he would condemn humans to pain forever. And I have constantly tried to give these beliefs a picture of " Forever", because they pass off this belief with no real concept of what " Forever pain would be like."
I appeal to the reality of it at times. Lets say that I slap you in the face one time. You can recover and survive that. But lets say I did it, every 5 seconds, for everyday of the week, for just one year! Just that, could you survive it? It would eventually drive you insane.
And to believe that God would allow something simular to this, to go on forever, is an insane belief within itself.
Peace.

Another thing we entirely agree on and hopefully others will come to see in time. It is a horrendous false belief going back centuries when the churches of this world ruled the simple with fear. I had personal experience of the power of the clergy who tolerated no opposition. Their word was law - not that we simpletons knew any different having no access to the word of God.
We lived in a different world then which God obviously allowed for a reason and thinking back it taught us 'obedience' if nothing else. A very important lesson with hindsight. God sets great store by it for it helps us to reach salvation Heb.5v8,9 !

 

[Thief]

No really...let's get back to topic.

Hell is separation from that which you love most.
That is supposed to be God.

Many are called few are chosen....His choice not yours.

Those who are not chosen...do without.
Oh hell!

 

[Beta]

Not everyone is chosen to be in the first resurrection but that does not mean they don't get a chance later or have been chosen to be in a following resurrection seeing there are more than one.
God is fair and just and gives everyone a chance to eternal life always assuming they take it up. People can refuse - we do have a choice Deut.30v19. We do not have to do without.
God works according to plan and he deals with first things first ie, Firstfruits.

 

[ninerbuff]

Not everyone is chosen to be in the first resurrection but that does not mean they don't get a chance later or have been chosen to be in a following resurrection seeing there are more than one.
God is fair and just and gives everyone a chance to eternal life always assuming they take it up. People can refuse - we do have a choice Deut.30v19. We do not have to do without.
God works according to plan and he deals with first things first ie, Firstfruits.

Okay clear something up for me. Your god already knows who's getting eternal life right? So why would there be a second resurrection when he already knows who would make it that time too? Why not just take them in the first one? It's not like god can't make a "bus" long enough to tote them along too.....

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Not everyone is chosen to be in the first resurrection but that does not mean they don't get a chance later or have been chosen to be in a following resurrection seeing there are more than one.
God is fair and just and gives everyone a chance to eternal life always assuming they take it up. People can refuse - we do have a choice Deut.30v19. We do not have to do without.
God works according to plan and he deals with first things first ie, Firstfruits.

'First' in Scripture can mean in order of importance.
Those that are part of the first resurrection [in time and order] are those who rule with Jesus in the heavens [Rev 5vs9,10;20v6].
The second death [not second resurrection] has no power over them.
Like Jesus they are resurrected to heavenly life and granted immortality or having life from within as God granted to Jesus upon resurrection.-John 5v26.

'Second death' is for those resurrected on earth and end up following in Adam's footsteps , so to speak. Once resurrected during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth, they choose like Adam to deliberately disobey.
-Rev 20vs13,14

Adam was offered not immortality but everlasting life. There is a difference.
Those resurrected to heaven can no longer ever die. Whereas being offered everlasting life is dependent not only on obedience to God but taking care of physical needs such as to need to breathe and eat and sleep, etc.

So except for those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6, all will have a resurrection to either heaven or on earth. No second resurrection but those resurrected on earth still proving wicked will experience second death or a death with no more chance of a resurrection anywhere.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Okay clear something up for me. Your god already knows who's getting eternal life right? So why would there be a second resurrection when he already knows who would make it that time too? Why not just take them in the first one? It's not like god can't make a "bus" long enough to tote them along too.....

God can choose to know or not know. God can use his foreknowledge when necessary such as in Noah's day. But because all are created as free moral agents then God chooses to let the choice be ours.

Please notice that those with a heavenly calling at Hebrews 6vs4-6 do not have that calling carved in stone, so to speak. They can fall away.
Those that commit the unforgivable sin do that against God's will. Matt 12v32.
God desires none to perish or be destroyed but repent. 2 Peter 3v9 B.

Except for those few miracles, there is no second resurrection mentioned in Scripture for general mankind.
The first or earlier resurrection is for those ruling with Jesus- Rev 5vs9,10.
Following the first or earlier resurrection to heaven will being the earthly resurrection taking place on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.
-Daniel 12vs2,13
The people on earth will be earthly subjects of God's kingdom rule.
Those in heaven have two jobs to do.:They serve as kings and priests.
As kings to take care of governmental responsibilities of subjects on earth.
As priests to take care of spiritual duties towards earth's subjects or citizens.

All this starts at the time of Jesus involvement into mankind's affairs described at Matt 25vs31,32.
The living people separated to Jesus right hand of favor, so to speak, can remain alive and keep right on living right into the start of Jesus peaceful millennial reign over earth without dying when Jesus ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill. They will be there to welcome back the earthly resurrected ones with the prospect of everlasting life on a paradisaic earth.

 

[mickiel]

The sick concept of eternal constant pain, is an illusion, which religion embraces. Worst than the electric chair, its like excuting someone but keeping them conscious and continually feeding them the power of torture - forever.

Its insane.

Peace.

Why would religion embrace the sick concept of hell; because they are convinced that God wants that.

Why would a Great Loving merciful God, want eternal pain for anyone? That is a great contridiction, but certain scriptures seem to imply it. Thats WHY certain believers, then believe it.

And I want to examine that contridiction in detail.

Peace.