The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[URAVIP2ME]

I've reached the conclusion the whole idea of heaven and hell is a way of psychological manipulation. It instills fear within human-beings, I find that very dangerous. Heaven and hell are states you can reach on earth.

The clergy have used 'bliss or burn' as a tactic on people without ever teaching what the Bible really teaches about heaven and the Biblical hell.

Adam's original state was reached: on earth.
Adam was originally offered everlasting life: on earth.
If Adam remained obedient to God Adam would still be alive today: on earth.

So mankind's original state was to be forever: on earth.
Not in heavenly bliss, so to speak, but lasting earthly peace and happiness.
[due to sin, Jesus and some bought from earth will rule in heaven, but the majority of mankind's eternal future is to be: on earth. -Rev 20v6;5vs9,10]

The state of the Biblical hell [common grave of mankind] came into existence because of sin. Jesus will remove sin during his 1000-year reign over earth so that means: No more hell [Rev 20vs13,14]. No more death [Rev 21vs4,5].

Revelation chapters 21,22 paints a word picture of a description of life as originally meant to be in the earthly paradisaic Garden of Eden.
Deathless life will start at the time of Matthew 25vs31,32 when the living 'sheep'-like ones on earth can remain alive and keep on living right here on earth into the start of Jesus peaceful millennial reign over earth with having everlasting life in view on a paradisaic earth.

Everlasting life on earth, with having a perfectly healthy human sound mind, heart and body, should not instill fear but hope that Jesus will soon involve himself into mankind's affairs and do away with even our 'last enemy' death.

[1stCor15v26; Isaiah 25vs6-8; Micah 4vs3,4]

 

[ConfusedKuri]

Then why the belief in heaven and hell at all?

 

[paul.thomas]

Just throwing this one out here, it probably has already been put forth. But if you don't love God or accept Him, spending an eternity in Heaven with Him would be Hell for you. Therefore, since you ask Him not to be with you, He will not force you to be with Him since it would be Hell for you. It's insanity, but He loves us enough to give us the choice of damning ourselves for eternity.

 

[ConfusedKuri]

Well I don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe there is good action and bad action, depends on how one defines it, that certain action can you put you into a certain state of heaven/hell already on this earth.

But still thanks for clarifying.

 

[PolyHedral]

If Adam remained obedient to God Adam would still be alive today:

Then it is quite clearly psychological manipulation. It is nothing more than a bribe.

 

[Thief]

Just throwing this one out here, it probably has already been put forth. But if you don't love God or accept Him, spending an eternity in Heaven with Him would be Hell for you. Therefore, since you ask Him not to be with you, He will not force you to be with Him since it would be Hell for you. It's insanity, but He loves us enough to give us the choice of damning ourselves for eternity.

Welcome to the Forum.

And there is an old story....about a rich man and a beggar.

As the story unfolds.....
the rich man has a conversation with an angel.

Close enough to carry on conversation and yet the angel says.....
'there is a great divide between us.'

I've known the story for years.
But no one ever seems to notice...'the distance'.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Then why the belief in heaven and hell at all?

According to Scripture Jesus lived in the heavens as his home in the invisible spirit realm before God sent Jesus to earth to be born as a sinless human.

The biblical hell is just mankind's stone-cold common grave of mankind.

Because the word 'Gehenna' was translated as hell fire the concept of forever burning developed. Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem were things were destroyed and not kept burning forever.
So, originally Gehenna was a fitting symbol of destruction not torture.

Jesus was in the biblical hell according to Acts 2 vs27,31.
And the biblical hell [gravedom] comes to an end in the happy climax of Revelation. Revelation is a revealing of the future under Christ's 1000-year reign over earth. At that time, all in the biblical hell, according to Rev [20 vs13,14] will be 'delivered up' [resurrected] from hell before emptied-out hell [vacant of people] when vacant hell dies a symbolic death of never existing again.

So, those that do not rule with Jesus in the heavens [Rev 20v6;5vs9,10] will be resurrected on earth with the opportunity to gain everlasting life on a paradisaic earth as originally offered to Adam at his creation.

Only those of Matthew 12v32; Hebrews 6vs4-6 have no future anywhere.
The rest are part of the 'many' of Matthew 20v28 B.

 

[Starsoul]

Well I don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe there is good action and bad action, depends on how one defines it, that certain action can you put you into a certain state of heaven/hell already on this earth.

But still thanks for clarifying.

I think that all joys and all evils exist with a miniscule of their glimpse and effects in this world to fully aware a person of how hell will be like and what heaven is to be like. True that one's life can be painful and imperfect, but Not believing in heaven and hell is to actually believe that this life is all fair, which no person can ever believe, even non-believers. That can mean they never strive for perfection, and eternal happiness just sounds bizzarre to them , thats strange.

If man can learn to survive in unfair conditions, with FAIRNESS, honesty and kindness , he can claim a perfect afterlife for the price of his sacrifices. If he endorses the fairness of this world, denies the possibility of a perfect world means that he is hopeless and pessimistic, and hoping immense good from the current system of the world which under the control of man, is sooo cruel to so many, and such a thought denies the idea or possibility of any happiness to those who really suffer and thats what i find really cruel.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think that all joys and all evils exist with a miniscule of their glimpse and effects in this world to fully aware a person of how hell will be like and what heaven is to be like.

According to Scripture [Rev 20v6;5vs9,10] there will be those ruling in heaven with Christ for a thousand years over the earth or earthly subjects. Psalm 72v8

The Bible hell, on the other hand, is mankind's common grave.
Jesus was in hell according to Acts 2vs27,31; Psalm 16v10
Since Jesus taught the dead sleep the deep sleep of death- John 11vs11-14
then those in hell are in a deep sleep-like state.

Jesus was well educated in the Hebrew OT Scriptures so Jesus would have known that Solomon wrote at Ecc. 9v5 that the dead know nothing.
Jesus knew the Psalms such as: 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4 that all mention the dead as being asleep.

Since the Bible hell is the common grave, and Jesus was given the keys to unlock hell and death, then Jesus will resurrect or 'deliver up' all in the Bible hell according to Rev 20vs13,14. Then 'emptied-out hell' dies a symbolic second death of never existing again. Even death will be no more.
-Rev 21vs4,5.

Jesus will resurrect those that rule with him to heaven. [With the exception of those of Matt 12v32; Hebrew 6vs4-6] Jesus will resurrect the rest on earth to be earthly subjects of God kingdom under his thousand year reign over earth and the prospect of living forever [everlasting life] right here on a paradisaic earth.

 

[lockyfan]

Just throwing this one out here, it probably has already been put forth. But if you don't love God or accept Him, spending an eternity in Heaven with Him would be Hell for you. Therefore, since you ask Him not to be with you, He will not force you to be with Him since it would be Hell for you. It's insanity, but He loves us enough to give us the choice of damning ourselves for eternity.

But if you decide to believe that the place that most religions teach as hell is actually just destruction with no pain.
That heaven was never created for humans to go there it is only because of sin and death that there is a chance of 144000 corulers of Christ to go there
That all the rest of humans were to live on earth in a paradise, then your point would be moot.

 

[ellenjanuary]

This is all frickin' crazy. Makes me wanna go crazy, myself. Find me some warehouse in Mexico, some depraved pedophile whose mother doesn't even sympathize with, and some of these righteous Christians. Make a movie, with a box of knives; see who knows about god, and who's mouthing off about hell through a sense of self-righteousness...

Then again, I'm evil... in the scientific sense more than the religious sense. I got this imagination, run simulations normal people can't even hear about; I sleep fine. This is where my compassion runs amok. I can understand why people cling to a belief in hell, I can understand why people need religion, and I can say stuff like - normal people can't even talk about the things I can simulate - and yet, I go whack...

And here's some Starsoul:

I think that all joys and all evils exist with a miniscule of their glimpse and effects in this world to fully aware a person of how hell will be like and what heaven is to be like.

Someone hit me up with some golden rule real quick, tell me what I'm supposed to do with this kind of stuff? Sounds sincere, plucks at the heartstrings, and I'm not saying this person is anything other than honest... but, obviously, this person is too nice to "run the sims."

 

[Brahmin010]

We need to consider the age and times when Christianty was born.. the majority of people were uneducated and unable to think for themselves. They didn't respond nor understand purely philosophical reasons why good behavior was good in and of itself. Rather they needed to be scared into belief. Thus, like little children afraid of what's underneath their beds, people did not question heaven and hell until the enlightenment... but even today millions still believe that there exists a so called all loving God who punishes for all eternity... I'm sorry but that doesn't work anymore, lets stop using fear and start using out heads

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We need to consider the age and times when Christianty was born.. the majority of people were uneducated and unable to think for themselves. They didn't respond nor understand purely philosophical reasons why good behavior was good in and of itself. Rather they needed to be scared into belief. Thus, like little children afraid of what's underneath their beds, people did not question heaven and hell until the enlightenment... but even today millions still believe that there exists a so called all loving God who punishes for all eternity... I'm sorry but that doesn't work anymore, lets stop using fear and start using out heads

First-century Christians understood Jesus' teachings.
It was 'after' the first century ended that un-scriptural teachings crept into beliefs because wolf-like clergy dressed in sheep's clothing fleeced the flock of God for their own agenda. Like today often a political agenda.
Acts 20vs29,30; 2nd Thess 2vs2-8

Do you remember Jesus illustration of the wheat and the weeds/tares?
Genuine wheat Christians would grow together over the centuries with fake weed/tares Christians until the harvest time, or end time of separation of Matthew [25vs31,32] before Jesus ushers in peace on earth toward men of goodwill.

So, it wasn't the birth of Christianity, but the birth of 'so-called Christianity' or Christendom that kept people in the dark [dark ages] by using scare tactics and keeping Scripture away from the common people.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

We should understand Hell is probably enjoyable for people who like to be evil and Heaven for people who like to be good.

Then again, not sure if Hell and Heaven exist as afterlives or on earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

We should understand Hell is probably enjoyable for people who like to be evil and Heaven for people who like to be good.
Then again, not sure if Hell and Heaven exist as afterlives or on earth.

I think there is a difference between the 'Pagan hell' concept of eternal hell and the concept of the temporary 'Bible hell'.

I say temporary because Jesus got a 'free get out of hell card' by being resurrected out of hell by God. -Acts 2vs27,31,32

Because Jesus taught the dead are in a sleep-like state [Jn11vs11-14] then Jesus believed that the dead sleep the deep sleep of death until resurrected by someone.

Jesus was Not teaching a new thought, but teaching the same knowledge as found in the Hebrew OT Scriptures that the dead are Not conscious.

[Ecc.9v5; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Daniel 12vs2,13]

That would mean in the Bible hell teaching one neither feels pain nor bliss.

Not only did Jesus get out of hell, but according to Revelation [20vs13,14] all [everybody] in the Bible hell is 'delivered up' [resurrected] out of the Bible hell or 'mankind's common grave' where the dead sleep until resurrected.
Then, emptied-out vacant hell dies out of existence in a symbolic 'second death' of No further existence anywhere.

Heaven, according to Hebrews [9v24], is God's home.
Jesus taught some will be resurrected to heaven. [Rev 20v6; 5vs9,10]
Leaving the majority of mankind to be resurrected back to life right here on earth. A paradisaic earth during Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth.

So, heaven [God's eternal home] will exist forever.
What will Not exist is the Bible hell [gravedom] and also death will be no more.

-Rev 21vs4,5; 1st Cor 15v26; Isaiah 25v8.

 

[Muffled]

We need to consider the age and times when Christianty was born.. the majority of people were uneducated and unable to think for themselves. They didn't respond nor understand purely philosophical reasons why good behavior was good in and of itself. Rather they needed to be scared into belief. Thus, like little children afraid of what's underneath their beds, people did not question heaven and hell until the enlightenment... but even today millions still believe that there exists a so called all loving God who punishes for all eternity... I'm sorry but that doesn't work anymore, lets stop using fear and start using out heads[/quote]

This sounds a lot like dispensationalism. I might agree with that. It would not be necessary to warn people about Hell if it were not imminent. The first coming of Chrsit makes Hell imminent. Although imminency is a stretch over 2000 years. Then again a year is like a day to God.

However that is nothing new for God. He was always giving warnings that bad behavior would bring punishment. I tend to think that an obedient people get fewer warnings.

It would be nice if people would use their heads but the continued warnings suggest that it just isn't happening. There are people today who have just that opinion of warnings such as the man on Mt St Helens who refused to heed warnings to leave and died as a result. However there is the crying wolf effect where everyone starts to think that the lack of a wolf means there will never be one.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Muffled-

Yes, God always gives warnings before action. Your post reminded me of Ezekiel's words at [3vs18-21] where both the wicked and the righteous are warned.

Wicked to change their ways [repent] and the righteous to keep on doing what is right.

 

[Benoni]

Have any of you ever heard of the Tabernacle of David? Something not taught in the religious system but very scriptural?

Acts 15:16-18

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[Mycroft]

There is another version of hell (at least to some) that is not generally touched upon. Eternal Life. To many the promise of eternal life might seem nice. Humans have a very real fear of death. That is why the men that invented the christian god and the concept of his heaven write in eternal life as one of god's promises.

However, I find that eternal life would be hell. 5, 6, 10, 100, 100,000, 100,000,000,000 billion years of living would leave one incredibly bored. Especially if that was filled mostly with worshiping. After that long nobody could say, write, think, sing anything new. That would be hell.

At least if one goes to the fiery pit where satan dwelleth, god eventually, supposedly, destroys them all, effectively ending their torment.

 

[Benoni]

There is another version of hell (at least to some) that is not generally touched upon. Eternal Life. To many the promise of eternal life might seem nice. Humans have a very real fear of death. That is why the men that invented the christian god and the concept of his heaven write in eternal life as one of god's promises.

However, I find that eternal life would be hell. 5, 6, 10, 100, 100,000, 100,000,000,000 billion years of living would leave one incredibly bored. Especially if that was filled mostly with worshiping. After that long nobody could say, write, think, sing anything new. That would be hell.

At least if one goes to the fiery pit where satan dwelleth, god eventually, supposedly, destroys them all, effectively ending their torment.

You sure have been influnced by a lot of bad religious views.