The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[Imagist]

It is sick, and most christians just cannot see this. They actually believe that Jesus was beaten to death, in order for many humans to be beaten for eternity. Just because they don't " Know God." As if God is some kind of " Ego Maniac", who tortures those who disagree with his way, but he holds the power to change them, help them see the light. But christians act like its a " Sin for God to use his power to change an unbelievers mind." Because their stuck on this doctrine of " Free Will." They actually think its fair for God to NOT intervene with a humans will, and just let them condemn themselves by choice. Its insane. They think God will allow his children to free will themselves into this hell, just because they don't have enough sense on their own, to believe in him.

The seduction of the christian mind is a deep study in deception.

Peace.

Mickiel, most of the people on this thread so far (including myself) have agreed that it's sick.

However, sick awful things happen all the time. The fact that they are sick and awful doesn't mean they don't happen.

In this case, all the biblical evidence points to the existence of a hell. Yes, it's sick, but it's also true.

If you did not believe in the bible, as I do, this wouldn't concern you.

But if you do believe in the bible, then it's highly hypocritical of you to only believe the parts that you like and ignore all the sick parts.

 

[Spiritone]

Mickiel, most of the people on this thread so far (including myself) have agreed that it's sick.

However, sick awful things happen all the time. The fact that they are sick and awful doesn't mean they don't happen.

In this case, all the biblical evidence points to the existence of a hell. Yes, it's sick, but it's also true.

If you did not believe in the bible, as I do, this wouldn't concern you.

But if you do believe in the bible, then it's highly hypocritical of you to only believe the parts that you like and ignore all the sick parts.

Could be. Just curious... YOu say you believe the Bible and in hell so what's with the slogan, "there is no God" maybe I'm missing something but it seems like a contradiction.

 

[J Bryson]

when i ponder this question, i often think about a german concentration camp guard at auschwitiz in 1944. he's a devout christian, attends church with his loving family each sunday and donates his share when the collection plate is passed. on this day he is leading jews, among whom is a family, mother, father, daughter, son, into the gas chamber. the nazi, if he asks forgiveness for his sins after the war, he will enjoy raising his children, playing with his grand children and otherwise basking in the warmth we call life. and when that ends he'll ascend to heaven where he'll meet his loved ones. the jewish family on the other hand, not believing precisely as the german that jesus is the son of god, will burn in hell for eternity. that's just sick man.

I've used nearly this exact example, except I had the guard undergo a conversion at the last second before being shot by an Allied soldier. That way you don't get into the "Well, not everyone who goes to church is going to heaven" thing.

 

[mickiel]

Mickiel, most of the people on this thread so far (including myself) have agreed that it's sick.

However, sick awful things happen all the time. The fact that they are sick and awful doesn't mean they don't happen.

In this case, all the biblical evidence points to the existence of a hell. Yes, it's sick, but it's also true.

If you did not believe in the bible, as I do, this wouldn't concern you.

But if you do believe in the bible, then it's highly hypocritical of you to only believe the parts that you like and ignore all the sick parts.

Well I just believe " The sick parts", were either added by translators, or just misinterpited by human ignorance, I do not pick and choose. I have made these decesions , based on the characther of God, as I understand him. Given that God is real, which I think he is, then he must have all encompassing wisdom, and I just don't see him making an " Eternal Monument out of sin."

It makes no sense to me for God to give Pain and misery, an eternity. He could just " Will anything he does not like, out of existence." And be done with it, why should he keep things around for eternity, that he does not like? There are many verses in the bible which " Cancel out Hell torture in eternity." For example, Rev. 22:3," There shall no longer be ANY curse." Here God stops ALL things that can be considered a curse, and eternal hell suffering would certainly be a curse. Also in Rev. 21:4;" And God shall wipe away EVERY tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any Death. There shall no longer be ANY Mourning, or CRYING, or Pain, these things will PASS AWAY!" If there is going to be an eternal hell, then surely crying, mourning and pain would exist there. But here, in the last book of the bible, God is getting rid of ALL these things. Vs. 6 states that he is giving from the water of Life, WITHOUT COST! But in verse 8, it goes into the lake of fire, and humans having their " Part in it."

So I think its obvious that humans will be thrown into this great Lake, but I believe the purpose of the Lake, is what we misunderstand. Its got to be something to it, something I think medicinal, some kind of purging, its a part of something more marvelous than we can comprehend. So when we get confused, we need to look at God, and what HE has said, not preachers. Not our own understanding.

In Isaiah 45:23-25, God himself makes a Holy Vow to himself, which HE states cannot be changed. So THIS, IS, what our true destiny is;EVERY knee will bow to him, EVERY mouth will CONFESS to him and swear alligence to him. THIS IS our destiny, and if thats not the total conversion of humanity, then I can't read.

I believe GODS promise, no matter how much mess others believe.

Gods going to get us our Salvation, I live with that Holy Promise.

Peace.

 

[Imagist]

Could be. Just curious... YOu say you believe the Bible and in hell so what's with the slogan, "there is no God" maybe I'm missing something but it seems like a contradiction.

I don't believe there is a god. I am showing that mickiel's beliefs are ridiculous, because he believes in the bible except that he conveniently ignores the parts about hell.

If we assume that the bible is correct, we must assume that hell exists. Mickiel refuses to understand this.

 

[Imagist]

Well I just believe " The sick parts", were either added by translators, or just misinterpited by human ignorance, I do not pick and choose. I have made these decesions , based on the characther of God, as I understand him. Given that God is real, which I think he is, then he must have all encompassing wisdom, and I just don't see him making an " Eternal Monument out of sin."

You do pick and choose, but that's okay because at least you have some basis for your picking and choosing. The problem is, if you understand the character of god, why do you need the bible at all? Since the bible contains all this stuff about hell that you don't believe, it's obviously inaccurate. Why not just look at the character of god?

It makes no sense to me for God to give Pain and misery, an eternity. He could just " Will anything he does not like, out of existence." And be done with it, why should he keep things around for eternity, that he does not like? There are many verses in the bible which " Cancel out Hell torture in eternity." For example, Rev. 22:3," There shall no longer be ANY curse." Here God stops ALL things that can be considered a curse, and eternal hell suffering would certainly be a curse. Also in Rev. 21:4;" And God shall wipe away EVERY tear from their eyes; and there shall no longer be any Death. There shall no longer be ANY Mourning, or CRYING, or Pain, these things will PASS AWAY!" If there is going to be an eternal hell, then surely crying, mourning and pain would exist there. But here, in the last book of the bible, God is getting rid of ALL these things. Vs. 6 states that he is giving from the water of Life, WITHOUT COST! But in verse 8, it goes into the lake of fire, and humans having their " Part in it."

In the verses you mention about wiping away tears, crying, and pain, Revelation is talking about heaven; of course there won't be those things in heaven. The weeping and gnashing of teeth will be reserved for hell. Revelation is clear: the sheep will go to heaven and the goats will go to hell.

I agree that this doesn't make sense. But lots of things in the bible don't make sense. In the same book you have, "God is love", "Love is not jealous", and "I, the Lord your god, am a jealous god." The entire story of Jesus is god sacrificing himself to himself to excuse himself from a rule that he made. If you start requiring the bible to make sense, you have to throw nearly the entire thing out.

So I think its obvious that humans will be thrown into this great Lake, but I believe the purpose of the Lake, is what we misunderstand. Its got to be something to it, something I think medicinal, some kind of purging, its a part of something more marvelous than we can comprehend. So when we get confused, we need to look at God, and what HE has said, not preachers. Not our own understanding.

HE said, numerous times, that there would be hell, and a lot of suffering.

And how can we rely on anything other than our own understanding? The very idea of relying on god, requires our own understanding of what god says. Without our own understanding, god might as well not have said anything to us because we can't understand it anyway.

In Isaiah 45:23-25, God himself makes a Holy Vow to himself, which HE states cannot be changed. So THIS, IS, what our true destiny is;EVERY knee will bow to him, EVERY mouth will CONFESS to him and swear alligence to him. THIS IS our destiny, and if thats not the total conversion of humanity, then I can't read.

What makes this the promise of god? Couldn't he also have promised the stuff in the bible about hell?

Also, it says every knee will bow and every tongue confess, but that doesn't mean they are converted. God is all powerful; he could merely force the sinners to worship despite their continued sin.

 

[mickiel]

Your prediction was that this thread is over, why are you continuing on it?

I am curious, if its your wish to see this thread die, why are you participating on it?

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

I don't believe there is a god. I am showing that mickiel's beliefs are ridiculous, because he believes in the bible except that he conveniently ignores the parts about hell.

If we assume that the bible is correct, we must assume that hell exists. Mickiel refuses to understand this.

An Atheist that believes in hell, and argues about scriptures in the bible. There is no such thing as being able to reason, with the unreasonable. This man is confused, and he is comfortable with his confusion.

And he really believes that he is able to show others, the things he imagines he sees himself.

Peace.

 

[Imagist]

Your prediction was that this thread is over, why are you continuing on it?

I am curious, if its your wish to see this thread die, why are you participating on it?

I don't wish for it to die; I really don't care if it lives or dies. It did die, but it seems we've resuscitated it.

 

[Imagist]

An Atheist that believes in hell, and argues about scriptures in the bible. There is no such thing as being able to reason, with the unreasonable. This man is confused, and he is comfortable with his confusion.

Mickiel, we've been over this before. I don't believe in hell or the bible. I'm merely trying to show that you can't believe in the bible without believing in the sick parts. This is known as a proof by contradiction.

My hope is that you will eventually realize just how completely irrational your beliefs are and snap out of it.

 

[TheAceOfKnaves]

I assume you mean human life. Thats a good question, I ask myself that many times. I am not yet sure, or fully convinced what was on Gods mind when he created humans. I think his plans for human life, is FAR different than any other beings he has created. It seems to me, that when God first thought of doing it, his mind became " Pregnant", so to speak. I think he actually wants to make humans his very own " Offspring", or you can say " Children." I think one day we all will actually be " Like Him." Simular to him, not exactly like him. I don't think anyone will ever be exactly like God, because God is " Uncreated", everythingelse is. He is all powerful, nonelse will ever be like that.

The point of human life, seems to be simular to a woman giving birth, but first she must go through 9 months of carrying the fetus, as it grows through stages. A crude example, but I think very simular to what God is after in human life in the flesh. A period of growth, development, and then be born into the real Life. So I think the earth is a large " Womb", wherein humans are living a temporary physical chemical existence, until we are born again into the REAL Life with God.

At this point, I know no other way to explain it. And this may be wrong.

Peace.

Hey mickiel. I'm back! Thought you were rid of me didn't you? Now, you have been using the Bible as evidence, and claiming to be a follower of the Christian God, so where in the name of all things did you find this little belief, hmmm? I can't recall anywhere in the Bible that it says anything remotely resembling this statement.

 

[TheAceOfKnaves]

The real threat to Salvation, is the misunderstanding of christians, they are the threat. They will push hell unto the end. The " Gates of Hell", or a mind open to the belief of hell, shallNOT prevail against Gods true Church, which everyone Jesus died for is destined to be a part of.

But christians are trying to " Limit Salvation", teaching that God has created it to be a " Free Will decesion", so that they can glory in their decision, and condemn others who have not made that choice. Again Jesus in Matt. 23:13;" But woe to you, scribes and pharisees, ( which really is what modernday christians are, Pharisees) because you " SHUT OFF the Kingdom from men." They are trying to limit salvation to " Only christians." Which I think is evil. Jesus call tyhese self righteous believers, " Twice the sons of hell", vs. 15. They are children of hell because they believe in it with all their hearts.

Once a christian enters into a conversation, a very astute deception also enters. And they will start to condemn nonstop.

Peace.

Oooooohhhhhh.... So this is now a predestination/free will discussion? I was under the assumption that it was a discussion on the existence of Hell. Man, a lot has happened since I last visited.

 

[TheAceOfKnaves]

If you don't mind, I will try to describe hell, from what I understand it to be in their belief. Its eternal, meaning it will go on past 1 billion years, into 777,777,777 trillion years, on into infinity. And us sinners will be alive and conscious every second along the way. I don't think they will allow us any breaks in the suffering, we must suffer without reprieve, no breaks, no days or hours off. I mean, we know God is merciful, but there will be no mercy in this hell. Which means no sleeping will be allowed, why punish someone while they are sleeping, thats no fun.

So then, it stands to reason, if you consider hell reasonable, that God, in his brillance, must then compensate for this, and give the human sufferers, much more than what is humanly able to endure. If I am to suffer for eternity, then God MUST give me a new mind, a very powerful brain that willnot go insane during this untold of misery. A " Super brain", designed to endure much more than the average human can bear. So then it is reasonable to give me a status, which before this, is just unheard of. A " Super Sufferer", so to speak. Equip me to endure this perminent pain.

Now then, what must I need? Well along with a super mind, I will no doubt need a super body. One that will not break down, or combust and burn up. Well then, make me like the Human Torch, a body that will mix and blend in with the Fire. And yet not burn up, that makes sense. Now what about my position in hell, if I am to stand up on my feet for all these untold of eternitys, then I will need legs like the incredible Hulk, unless God will allow us to lay down during this Misery. Now since we will be in a Lake of Fire, then give me the ability to swim in it, or stay afloat, so make me an " Aquaman", able to go under the water of Fire, and breathe air while I am under. This is starting to sound like a " Super hero sufferer", so God had better post guards around this lake, we wouldnot want any of these newly created super beings getting out, now would we! You know they would probally be mad after what, 188,999 trillion years of this incredible pain and torture. They might just think about escapeing. But perhaps not, misery has a way of making humans submissive.

Well why waste Gods time placing Angels at guard, thats not a good job, these Angels wouldnot enjoy that, so God could create a different dimension, a " Hole in Space", that no one could get in or out. Yes, that sounds reasonable. But would hell still require maintinance? Will we need to be fed? Or can we just starve? Yes, yes , thats it, just make us so super, we willnot require to be nourished, why feed a dirty sinner? Just make us so endurable, we will not need nourishment for all of eternity.

Can we suffers talk to each other? Or will there be a code against that? Only screams and sounds of misery will be allowed. Yes, yes thats it, no entertainment, just continual pain. No eating, no bowel movements, no waste, for these human waste. What about clothes? Inflamable clothes, or just naked bodies? Well that may cause lust, after all , these are sinners, they may try to have sex in hell, with no guards, whats to stop that? A little pleasure to take away the misery?

Which brings to question, will there be laws in hell? Whats to stop one of these Super Sufferers from trying to rule hell? Ganging up on each other, because they may be driven madd after 999, 777 quadrillion years.

Perhaps this is what hell will be like.

I just can't see God doing this.

Peace.

You can't see God doing this because it is utterly absurd, and totally irrelevant. Maybe you shouldn't use nonsense to make a point. I don't know if it'll work very well.

 

[TheAceOfKnaves]

Well I just believe " The sick parts", were either added by translators, or just misinterpited by human ignorance, I do not pick and choose. I have made these decesions , based on the characther of God, as I understand him. Given that God is real, which I think he is, then he must have all encompassing wisdom, and I just don't see him making an " Eternal Monument out of sin."

Ok, you just admitted to picking and choosing, but you gave a rationalization. That does not discount the fact that you are picking and choosing. And how, by the way, do you know God's character if you reject the evidences that propose that He is "sick", by your understanding of the word? And bye-the-bye, could you please stop generalizing/profiling Christians? It doesn't help anyone's respect of you, and of your opinions, when you bash an entire group of people, regardless of their individual differences. Especially when you include yourself in that group....

 

[TheAceOfKnaves]

Mickiel, we've been over this before. I don't believe in hell or the bible. I'm merely trying to show that you can't believe in the bible without believing in the sick parts. This is known as a proof by contradiction.

My hope is that you will eventually realize just how completely irrational your beliefs are and snap out of it.

YES. Thank you, Imagist, for joining the good fight while I was gone, and it appears that (though we do have major differences regarding God) I could learn much from you about the art of argument. For example, I have been trying to explain to mickiel that bit about proof of contradiction, but I didn't know that's what it's called. You learn something new every day, eh? Welcome to the rational side.

 

[mickiel]

. Especially when you include yourself in that group....

I am not a christian and I do not worship their God.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Hey mickiel. I'm back! Thought you were rid of me didn't you? Now, you have been using the Bible as evidence, and claiming to be a follower of the Christian God, so where in the name of all things did you find this little belief, hmmm? I can't recall anywhere in the Bible that it says anything remotely resembling this statement.

I have NEVER claimed to be a follower of the christian God, I hardly know the God I follow. He does not speak to me, he has not given me his Spirit, and I am disobedient to his ways.

I would like to know my God, but he is not so inclined to that as of now.

Peace.

 

[Imagist]

YES. Thank you, Imagist, for joining the good fight while I was gone, and it appears that (though we do have major differences regarding God) I could learn much from you about the art of argument. For example, I have been trying to explain to mickiel that bit about proof of contradiction, but I didn't know that's what it's called. You learn something new every day, eh? Welcome to the rational side.

This page is about mathematical proofs, but with a little bit of imagination you can see how all of the proofs can be applied to logic rather than mathematics (stuff after visual proof is kind of redundant so you can ignore that).

If you're looking to learn the art of proving things, that would be a good place to start.

 

[mickiel]

I have NEVER claimed to be a follower of the christian God, I hardly know the God I follow. He does not speak to me, he has not given me his Spirit, and I am disobedient to his ways.

I would like to know my God, but he is not so inclined to that as of now.

Peace.

The more I live, the more it seems to me that this world is barren of Gods Spirit. The Power I begin to suspect that it really has, its lack of confusion. Oh theirs belief on earth, theres a lot of that, I believe myself.

David said something in Ps.51 that intrest me. He asked God to " Wash him Thoroughly from my sin, and cleanse me of it." As if if God did that, he would never have sin in his Life again. Oh thats what I would like to have from God, a " Total involvement with his Holiness."

And I just do not see that on earth now.

Peace.

 

[Imagist]

The more I live, the more it seems to me that this world is barren of Gods Spirit. The Power I begin to suspect that it really has, its lack of confusion. Oh theirs belief on earth, theres a lot of that, I believe myself.

David said something in Ps.51 that intrest me. He asked God to " Wash him Thoroughly from my sin, and cleanse me of it." As if if God did that, he would never have sin in his Life again. Oh thats what I would like to have from God, a " Total involvement with his Holiness."

And I just do not see that on earth now.

Peace.

There's a simple explanation for why. I think you know what that is.