The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[AK4]

Neither of the verses ( Ho13:14; 1 Cor 15:55) have to do with second death but the death inherited from Adam or Adamic death. So does 1Cor 15:26 naming our last enemy.

Death is death and if death is abolished that means all is life. God being all in all. Will God have some death in Him then? See how silly that sounds? Anyway the second death is the death of the carnal mind.

Re20:13,14 emptied-out death and hades (hell) are destroyed in second death. Hell or hades is destroyed only after all in there are 'delivered up' . Then emptied-out hell/hades the common grave no longer exists that is why Rev 21:4 can state that death will be no more. No more death after the destruction of death and hell/hades.
Even Satan is destroyed. -Hebrews 2:14 B

Now can you see this contradiction --"No more death after the destruction of death" and "Even Satan is destroyed". So death is dead. Satan is dead. So death isnt abolished.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

AK4-

Satan is destroyed as in being annihilated- Hebrews 2:14 B.

1st Cor 15:26 death is brought to nothing. 'Nothing' means non-existence.

Death is annihilated because those worthy of second death are destroyed in second death. No resurrection from second death.

Jesus mentioned a final outcome at Luke (17:29) for Sodom and Gomorrah where it connects the fire from heaven with destruction or destroying them all.
The literal fire of Sodom ceased burning 1000's of years ago, but the effects of that fire are known even today because neither of those cities have been re-built.

2nd Thess 1:9 connects punishment with everlasting destruction.
Righteous ones have life eternal (Matt 25:46) but wicked ones are cut off from life in the everlasting punishment of everlasting destruction.

Rev 20:13,14 shows all in hell [grave] are 'delivered up' from hell. Then, emptied-out hell [grave] and death are cast into second death. If second death is death of the carnal or fleshly mind, then what kind of mind does hell [grave] have? and what kind of mind does death have ?

No contradiction. Hell dies. Death dies. Isaiah 25:8; Rev 21:4.
Those of Matt 12:32; 25:46; Hebrews 6:4-6 are destroyed
See also Psalm 92:7 to see who is destroyed or annihilated forever.

 

[lockyfan]

I will get to this later because my point below should make you think again about this.



Fire equal destrustion huh?

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Heb 12:29 - For our God is a consuming fire. [/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]1Jo 4:8 - ... God is love. [/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]So God is a consuming fire and God is love. Now how would and could this both fit with your interpretation of gehenna? It doesnt. Eternal torment is not love. Eternal annihilation of someone is not love for that person either. So you really need to rethink your interpretation of gehenna because if God eternally annihilates someone then that is not love.[/FONT]

When you compare Hebrews 12:29 with other scriptures you actually find out that this "consuming fire" is not actually literal. It is symbolic

Ezekiel 1:27-28
And I got to see something like the glow of electrum, like the appearance of fire all around inside thereof, from the appearance of his hips and upward; and from the appearance of his hips and downward I saw something like the appearance of fire, and he had a brightness all around. There was something like the appearance of the bow that occurs in a cloud mass on the day of a pouring rain. That is how the appearance was of the brightness round about. It was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah. When I got to see [it], then I fell upon my face, and I began to hear the voice of one speaking.

See there LIKE the Appearance. It is LIKENED to that not that it IS the appearance of fire.


Also so you think allowing someone to burn in torture forever is something that a God of Love would do? I wouldnt want to serve your God mate. If thats what you think someone who loves you should do I wouldnt want to know your kinbd of love.

You see in the point of Gehenna he would rather them not exist than suffer and cause more suffering. Plus they have already been judged by him. How is your form? You A HUMAN would dare challeng or say to the ALMIGHTY RULER OF THE UNIVERSE that he is wrong. Satan did that, look what he is going to get.

 

[Thought Criminal]

When you compare Hebrews 12:29 with other scriptures you actually find out that this "consuming fire" is not actually literal. It is symbolic

And I got to see something like the glow of electrum, like the appearance of fire all around inside thereof, from the appearance of his hips and upward; and from the appearance of his hips and downward I saw something like the appearance of fire, and he had a brightness all around. 28 There was something like the appearance of the bow that occurs in a cloud mass on the day of a pouring rain. That is how the appearance was of the brightness round about. It was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of Jehovah. When I got to see [it], then I fell upon my face, and I began to hear the voice of one speaking.

See there LIKE the Appearance. It is LIKENED to that not that it IS the appearance of fire.


Also so you think allowing someone to burn in torture forever is something that a God of Love would do? I wouldnt want to serve your God mate. If thats what you think someone who loves you should do I wouldnt want to know your kinbd of love.

You see in the point of Gehenna he would rather them not exist than suffer and cause more suffering. Plus they have already been judged by him. How is your form? You A HUMAN would dare challeng or say to the ALMIGHTY RULER OF THE UNIVERSE that he is wrong. Satan did that, look what he is going to get.

How glib. When something is literally false, all you have to do is claim it's symbolically true.

TC

 

[lockyfan]

How glib. When something is literally false, all you have to do is claim it's symbolically true.

TC

There are several scriptures that say it, but ot get the full meaning you need to read them all and this actually shows that it is a symbolic fire. Yes it is false that he is all fiery hellfire and torment, but the scriptures do put him with a fiery glow. Especially when it comes to the JUDGEMENT facet of Jehovahs character.

He is not harsh or evil, not quite the opposite because the scriptures say he IS love, but the scriptures say he has a fiery looking glow. It is symbolic.

It is not a literal firre and it is not htat he uses it to torture people, It is symbolic and represents JUDGEMENT

 

[Thought Criminal]

There are several scriptures that say it, but ot get the full meaning you need to read them all and this actually shows that it is a symbolic fire. Yes it is false that he is all fiery hellfire and torment, but the scriptures do put him with a fiery glow. Especially when it comes to the JUDGEMENT facet of Jehovahs character.

He is not harsh or evil, not quite the opposite because the scriptures say he IS love, but the scriptures say he has a fiery looking glow. It is symbolic.

It is not a literal firre and it is not htat he uses it to torture people, It is symbolic and represents JUDGEMENT

I'm questioning your methodology. Biblical literalism starts by trying to interpret the quote as literally true. Then, when the quote is patently false, there is a choice between accepting it anyway, or downgrading it to metaphor. It is not a principled basis, but an expedient one. We could just as easily decide that God's existence is metaphorical.

TC

 

[lockyfan]

I'm questioning your methodology. Biblical literalism starts by trying to interpret the quote as literally true. Then, when the quote is patently false, there is a choice between accepting it anyway, or downgrading it to metaphor. It is not a principled basis, but an expedient one. We could just as easily decide that God's existence is metaphorical.

TC

Deu 4:24, Exodus 24:17, Deu 9:3, Heb 12:29..... The list goes on. They all say that he is eithjer a consuming fire or that is glory was liek that of a consuming fire. So we need to ascertain from the scriptures what this means. Now because we know he is a Godof love this does not mean he torments people with fire. Because a God of love wouldnt do this. So the fire has to be symbolic of something.

it is not lieteral but figerative. So it can mean as I said Judgement, because this world is reserved for his judgement and it will be DESTROYED by fire jsut as Noahs world was destroyed by Flood. (2 Peter 3:5-7) Can be associated with love (Ca 8:6), passion (Ro 1:27; 1Co 7:9), anger and judgment (Zep 2:2; Mal 4:1), or strong emotion (Lu 24:32; 2Co 11:29). Jeremiah wanted to stop talking abotu God's word and found he couldnt because it was like a fire inside him (Jer 20:9). Jehovah God is called a consuming fire because of his cleanness, purity, and insistence on exclusive devotion, as well as the fact that he annihilates those who set themselves in opposition to him. (De 4:24; 9:3) His ardor and rage burn like fire, and his “tongue” and word are like a fire. (Ps 79:5; 89:46; Isa 30:27; Jer 23:29) Moreover, Jehovah makes his angelic ministers a devouring fire, and by the fire of his zeal “the earth” will be devoured.—Ps 104:1, 4; Zep 3:8; see also Da 7:9, 10.

But like I said it is not literal it is symbolic or figerative of many things and facets. One of which is Judgement and others that are also mentioned.

 

[Thought Criminal]

Deu 4:24, Exodus 24:17, Deu 9:3, Heb 12:29..... The list goes on. They all say that he is eithjer a consuming fire or that is glory was liek that of a consuming fire. So we need to ascertain from the scriptures what this means. Now because we know he is a Godof love this does not mean he torments people with fire. Because a God of love wouldnt do this. So the fire has to be symbolic of something.

it is not lieteral but figerative. So it can mean as I said Judgement, because this world is reserved for his judgement and it will be DESTROYED by fire jsut as Noahs world was destroyed by Flood. (2 Peter 3:5-7) Can be associated with love (Ca 8:6), passion (Ro 1:27; 1Co 7:9), anger and judgment (Zep 2:2; Mal 4:1), or strong emotion (Lu 24:32; 2Co 11:29). Jeremiah wanted to stop talking abotu God's word and found he couldnt because it was like a fire inside him (Jer 20:9). Jehovah God is called a consuming fire because of his cleanness, purity, and insistence on exclusive devotion, as well as the fact that he annihilates those who set themselves in opposition to him. (De 4:24; 9:3) His ardor and rage burn like fire, and his “tongue” and word are like a fire. (Ps 79:5; 89:46; Isa 30:27; Jer 23:29) Moreover, Jehovah makes his angelic ministers a devouring fire, and by the fire of his zeal “the earth” will be devoured.—Ps 104:1, 4; Zep 3:8; see also Da 7:9, 10.

But like I said it is not literal it is symbolic or figerative of many things and facets. One of which is Judgement and others that are also mentioned.

That's cafeteria Christianity. You reference some OT books where God is a meany, then try to interpret them in light of something in the NT. If that's not picking and choosing, what is?

TC

 

[lockyfan]

Why is he a meany? Because he followed through with his discipline of the wayward Hebrews? He told then what he would do and when they stopped listening he followed through. Justl ike a loving Parent.

Do you follo through with any children and their discipline? Are you then the big meany for doing that?

 

[Thought Criminal]

Why is he a meany? Because he followed through with his discipline of the wayward Hebrews? He told then what he would do and when they stopped listening he followed through. Justl ike a loving Parent.

Do you follo through with any children and their discipline? Are you then the big meany for doing that?

Because the OT and NT belong to two separate religions and they're incompatible. The NT was heavily influenced by the Greeks, so it had a kinder, gentler God.

TC

 

[lockyfan]

um no. It was still the Hebrews. Just that they knew greek by this stage because they had been almost disowned by Jehovah at that point. He sent Jesus (his son) to minister to the Jews or Hebrews first before any other nation recieved to good news of the kingdom. They got first bite of the cherry.

Have you looked at what htey did?

Moaned and whinged constantly. Kept going to serve other God's because they coudnt be bothered to do as they were told.

They were willfully sinning against God. Constantly.

If he were such a meany we wouldnt even be able to have this discussion because he would have completely destroyed humans thousands of years ago. But he has lovingly kept going with us, until this point and it is just a little while further and he will then bring an end to it. but not before all people get a fair chance to learn about him, from his word and not mans.

 

[Trusue]

Hellfire punishment is a religious doctrine, started in the Catholic religion. All the religions that broke away from the Catholic religion kept that doctrine as from God. That is not true.

When the Bible speaks of the lake of fire, it is called Gehenna, the second death. That is not the death we suffer today, there is no resurrection from the second death. It means everlasting cutting off from life. Jesus died so mankind can have the hope of being resurrected from the dead, back to life on earth in the new world. All the dead will be resurrected back to life some day.

“Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [the Son of God’s] voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”—John 5:28, 29.​

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Because the OT and NT belong to two separate religions and they're incompatible. The NT was heavily influenced by the Greeks, so it had a kinder, gentler God.
TC

If the Old and New were incompatible, then why did Jesus often make reference to or quote from the old Hebrew Scriptures to make his point?
(Mt 4:4,7,10; 11:10; 21:13; 26:31; Mk 9:13; 14:27; Lk 24:46; Jn 6:45; 8:17)
What was not compatible was the religious leaders of Jesus day teaching their own doctrines of men. Mark 7:7; Matt 15:9.
Jesus pronounced many 'woes' against them and his reasons why at the 23rd chapter of Matthew. Please also compare Matthew 23:35 with Revelation 18:24.
The religious leaders were putting words in Jesus mouth instead of listening to the words that came out of his mouth in order to further their own agenda.

Didn't the 'Golden Rule' also exist in the Hebrew Scriptures?

Wasn't there a promised 'seed' at Genesis 3:15 that applies to Jesus?

Didn't Daniel (9:25,26) apply those verses exclusively to a coming Messiah that fits Jesus?

The Bible has corresponding or parallel verses or passages and by context and background or setting one can discern what is literal. For example: the animals of Rev. 13:2 are not literal, but explained at Daniel 7:1-7; 8:3-8, 20-25.

Cafeteria Christians ignore parts of Scripture. Pick only what they personally like, ignore what they don't like. Whereas 2nd Tim 3:16,17 says 'all' Scripture (Hebrew and Greek) should be used as beneficial.....

 

[AK4]

AK4-

Satan is destroyed as in being annihilated- Hebrews 2:14 B.

It says satan has the power of death and death is "annihilated". This mentions nothing of satan being annihilated.

1st Cor 15:26 death is brought to nothing. 'Nothing' means non-existence.

And to further what i just said, it says death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire and they will be tormenting DAY AND NIGHT for ever and ever[FOR THE EON OF THE EONS]. Now if they are tormented day and night after day and night after day and night, where do you get annihilation from? Are they not still alive somehow so they can be tormented? Can something annihilated suffer torment? See how your doctrine contradicts scripture. And if you think this happens after the day and night of tormenting that they be annihilated, where does it say that? It says death is abolished not satan. On the otherhand we do have scriptures that say ALL IN HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL BOW TO HIM and be RECONCILED TO HIM and no one can call JESUS Lord except by the Holy Spirit. So what does that mean? Satan and all those thrown into the LOF will have to someone recieve the Holy Spirit so they can call Jesus Lord. Now is God going to annihilate those who have His spirit? Come on now

Death is annihilated because those worthy of second death are destroyed in second death. No resurrection from second death.

See how you contradict. Do you believe in contradictions? It says "it is for man to die ONCE, after that JUDGMENT". Does it say annihilation? No. What does it say will happen when they are judged?

Isa 26:9... For when the earth experiences F334 Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn R891 righteousness.

Wow. How many different scriptures will you contradict with that damnable doctrine of annihilation?

Jesus mentioned a final outcome at Luke (17:29) for Sodom and Gomorrah where it connects the fire from heaven with destruction or destroying them all.
The literal fire of Sodom ceased burning 1000's of years ago, but the effects of that fire are known even today because neither of those cities have been re-built.

Did you finish reading about Sodom? "It will be more tolerable for them in judgment". Have you really thought about this? Doesnt this say that they werent annihilated? And if Capernaum will have it worse and Sodom and Gomorrah who as you say are annihilated, what does that say of Capernaum? Whats worse than annihilation?

2nd Thess 1:9 connects punishment with everlasting destruction

.
Everlasting is not a scriptural word. Its a product of bad translating. Please study up on the words aion/aionis and olam.

Righteous ones have life eternal (Matt 25:46)

Thats life eonian.

but wicked ones are cut off from life in the everlasting punishment of everlasting destruction.

punishment isnt even scriptural. the word is chastisement and that has a connotation of correcting not punishing or annihilation. Again study those words.

Rev 20:13,14 shows all in hell [grave] are 'delivered up' from hell. Then, emptied-out hell [grave] and death are cast into second death. If second death is death of the carnal or fleshly mind, then what kind of mind does hell [grave] have? and what kind of mind does death have ?

Lets read it

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death R1051 and Hades gave R1052 up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one {of them} according R1053 to their deeds.

Did you notice here that Hades is emptied? No ones in there right? Lets read on:

14 Then death R1054 and Hades were thrown into the R1055 lake of fire. This is the second R1056 death, the lake of fire.

Now these are thrown in the LOF while they were empty. So who is annihilated? Hmmm

15 And if anyone's F233 name was not found written in the R1057 book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

So now they are thrown in the LOF. Now it doesnt mention anywhere about annihilation. Have you studied those greek words for lake" "fire" and the "brimstone" that is used for this? Do you know what the brimstone is for?

1. brimstone
   1. divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease

The brimstone is for purifying. PURIFYING!!! Is God gonna purify then and then annihilate them? Come now

No contradiction. Hell dies. Death dies. Isaiah 25:8; Rev 21:4.
Those of Matt 12:32; 25:46; Hebrews 6:4-6 are destroyed
See also Psalm 92:7 to see who is destroyed or annihilated forever.

Forever? Thats not scriptural either. the translators are not consistent with the whole theme of the scriptures for them to put forever. This verse would contradict so many others if it was forever. No its for perpetuity or continuing future. Even the verses you quoted from Revelation should show you that these wicked people are not destroyed forever because the "rise" in judgment.

 

[Muffled]

Luke 16:22-24 is a parable or illustration it is Not literal.

Please notice the setting or background in verses 13,14 is for the religious leaders, the Pharisees, they heard Jesus, and in verse 15 Jesus says unto the Pharisees then he gives the illustration or parable.

King Solomon, known for his God-given wisdom, was not the only one that thought the dead know not anything- Ecc 9:5. Don't the Psalmists also agree with Solomon?
Psalm: 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4 Isn't that why Jesus likened being dead to being in a deep sleep-like state at John 11:11-14 ? Jesus knew then that he would be unconscious or in a deep sleep-like state while he was in hell- Acts 2:27,31.

So what are you saying? - That you think parables are made up stories that have no basis in reality? Strangely enough Jesus doesn't say that it is a parable. That is someone's assumption. Witthout evidence to the contrary Jesus could be relating a true story.

An illustration can be a true story. I relate things that have happened to me in the past as illustrations for some things. Certainly God knows everyone's story before and after death.

This appears to be a euphemism not a teaching.

Hear is what Jesus has to say about ghosts:
Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they beheld a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do questionings arise in your heart?
39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having.

It appears that Jesus is not denying that a spirit can walk and talk but simply states that he is flesh and blood.

 

[Muffled]

Because the OT and NT belong to two separate religions and they're incompatible. The NT was heavily influenced by the Greeks, so it had a kinder, gentler God.

TC

This isn't the reality. It is man who separates into religions not God.

That is a lot of bull. God is not influenced by Greeks and He does not change over time (immutablity). Paerhaps God emphasizes grace more in the NT and judgement less but that is because He is working His plan of redemption by progressive revelation.

 

[mickiel]

The sick concept of eternal hell suffering is a morbid example of religion gone wild while it fuels itself. It is a reflection of the true desire of some believers to see constant pain inflicted on others who do not believe as they do. Hellfire belief is really human desire to punish other humans for their lack of belief.

This eternal hell suffering is what humans would do to other humans , " If they were God."

But they are not God.

Peace.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

The sick concept of eternal hell suffering is a morbid example of religion gone wild while it fuels itself. It is a reflection of the true desire of some believers to see constant pain inflicted on others who do not believe as they do. Hellfire belief is really human desire to punish other humans for their lack of belief.

This eternal hell suffering is what humans would do to other humans , " If they were God."

But they are not God.

Peace.

It is true, that plants like water and light. They grow and change form. Good job...

 

[AK4]

The sick concept of eternal hell suffering is a morbid example of religion gone wild while it fuels itself. It is a reflection of the true desire of some believers to see constant pain inflicted on others who do not believe as they do. Hellfire belief is really human desire to punish other humans for their lack of belief.

This eternal hell suffering is what humans would do to other humans , " If they were God."

But they are not God.

Peace.

It is the carnal, natural mind that believes in this sick concept. It amases me actually because these people, not just christians, claim to have the Spirit of God and yet believe in such a sick concept. I mean its a no brainer for me that they got some kind of spirit but surely it cant be the Spirit of God.

Oh and this also applies to those who believe in eternal annihilation. How sick is it to believe that only God can give faith and yet to those who He doesnt and hasnt given faith to die in their sins would have been teased with a vapor of life and then annihilated by a god who didnt give them the faith to avoid annihilation. Its sick sick sick.

 

[AK4]

Originally Posted by Thought Criminal
Because the OT and NT belong to two separate religions and they're incompatible. The NT was heavily influenced by the Greeks, so it had a kinder, gentler God.

TC

Maybe i need a refresher on greek mythology but if im correct i dont think those gods were kinder and gentler.