idea
Question Everything
the point was "powerful" does not always equate to malevolent control freak...
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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.
- Thread starter mickiel
- Start date
the point was "powerful" does not always equate to malevolent control freak...
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Gods Power must have a revealed equation, and I think that equation is Love. Because of his Love for us, he willnot allow ANY of us to Perish. I don't complettely understand whats going on, but I am banking on that Love to determine our future. The most sick of us, the most sinful of us, the most perverted of us, NEED Gods grace, Gods Love, Gods Mercy, and I think we will be given it freely, no matter what we have done.
THATS how I think God really is!
Peace.
THATS how I think God really is!
Peace.
idea
Question Everything
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
I believe that the concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. Without hell there's no choice, and without choice heaven would not be heaven, heaven would be hell. The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell. Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distancing yourself from God only in the end to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity! The alternative to hell is worse than hell itself in that it is taking humans who are made in the image of God and stripping them of freedom and forcing them to worship God against their wills.
logician
Well-Known Member
Choice of what, I choose not to believe in god, heaven or hell, if I'm right, then none of them exist.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
I choose to believe, and I sense such things are not based on my belief, or me, but things much greater than me. And thats what stirs the ego of man, to think things exist much greater than himself. And be insulted that those things do not introduce themselves, to our self.
Peace.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Our terms of belief are always based on what we think is right, so I see no way of avoiding self righteousness in all of our views and beliefs. I mean we live and our minds move, such freedom is always infected by ourselves. Selfishness is then the motive behind what we take a stance on.
I think this to be the will of God, let man think for himself. And then when he so decides, he will correct that thinking.
Kind of mysterious to me, and yet so obvious.
Peace.
I think this to be the will of God, let man think for himself. And then when he so decides, he will correct that thinking.
Kind of mysterious to me, and yet so obvious.
Peace.
idea
Question Everything
The choice is yours - He does not force His presence on anyone.
Where have you been looking?
agree - and more than just choice. Existence demands it. Either everything is one body, or there is diversity. Heaven / hell / good / evil – they are all relative terms. Theory of relativity – existence requires reference frames.
2 Nephi 2:
11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.
12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.
13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.
14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.
15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.
or what we experience... I believe we start out as unformed creatures in need of being changed, I do not think our beginnings are a beautiful "right" righteous thing, although I know who I was, experiences that I can change... It is not always pretty, it is not always what we want it to be, it is what it is.
DC 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
The potter did not create the clay
Gen 1:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
formed - organized, not created - or we are not indepenant beings with free will
breathed into - placed into, not created.
John 3:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
does not say they made everything, IF it was made, they made it. Some things are not made, some things are eternal = no beginning, no end.
The only way we could have eternal life is if we are already eternal = no beginning... eternal different than eternal life...
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mickiel
Hell is a mistranslation in English bibles. God has no intention of tormenting people that is a myth made up by the same people that brought the world the trinity myth.
Here are a couple of good studies on how the myth of hell came to be translated into modern bibles.
Ah well the site won't let me post links till I post some more myself.
I will have to go off and find something to post about here I guess.
But I will return.
Hell is a mistranslation in English bibles. God has no intention of tormenting people that is a myth made up by the same people that brought the world the trinity myth.
Here are a couple of good studies on how the myth of hell came to be translated into modern bibles.
Ah well the site won't let me post links till I post some more myself.
I will have to go off and find something to post about here I guess.
But I will return.
idea
Question Everything
Do I detect a JW
welcome to RF! Yes, I remember the days of no links - you can still post them, just use spaces so the computer can't tell they are links. we will take out the spaces ... use -at- etc... cruel for them to set it up like that!Here is another thread for you if you are JW - love to hear your comments -
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/67785-one-thing-i-see-2.html#post1221412
in any event,
yes, yes - hell means "to bury" etc... it is more merciful to just put someone out of existence than eternal punishment, but eternal beings cannot blink out of existence - you can change form, but not just disappear - it goes against the laws of thermo - conservation principles and all that - everything that now exists is eternal, you don't get something for nothing, nor can you get nothing from something. What now exists has always and will always exist in one form or another.
mickiel
Well-Known Member
The sick concept of eternal hell punishing comes from a serious misunderstanding of what the Lake of Fire is, what Death is and what the Darkness is. All of which are complettely differing things, but the have circumstancial mixing into each other. Because of this fusion, people treat them in their belief as if they are all one entity into each other. You can't group these things together, thats one way to confuse yourself.
Peace.
Peace.
Green Kepi
Active Member
Mickiel...I haven't read all the posts, so please forgive me if I re-hash something...however, I believe the Bible does not teach the concept of Hell as "we" (in this so-called) modern world know it. This concept of eternal punishment came along in the Middle ages. No where in the Old Testament was it taught. Even Jesus never taught it. The King James translators placed that word in there. Jesus mentioned Gehenna where Jerusalem would end up after its "unstoppable" fiery destruction in 70 AD. The people hearing him had no clue as to what (the so-called) place of hell was. They only knew of the "trash dump". Even Paul, the one picked to take the Gospel into all the world, never mentioned it one time. If it was such a horrible place, wouldn't anyone correctly assume that he'd mention it (at least once or twice). No...I believe...God is that figurative Lake of Fire...He will destroy the souls of those whom are not His children. That's what He says in Matthew 10:28..."...be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna". Sheol is and was completely different than what most of the Christian world calls and believes is Hell. The concept is not taught in the Scriptures....
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Well I agree with much of this, but you are still leaving room for God to destroy certain humans, which I disagree with. That is still a reflection of the perverted concept of punishment, because you think God is out to punish humanity. If I stand on the top of a hill and begin a snowball rolling, it will grow as it gains momentum, and wreck everything in its path as it heads for final destruction, and I have started this. Now why should I then judge people who get in the path of something I started, and condemn them for their inability to get out of its way? And this is what you are doing with the judgement of God to destroy certain souls who did not get out of the way of something he started, because NOTHING started itself. God is the Alpha and Omega, he began EVERYTHING, nothing evolved or began itself.
Peace.
Green Kepi
Active Member
mickiel
Well-Known Member
Green Kepi
Active Member
What kind of mind do I think God has (?)...I dunno...Deuteronomy 29:29 tells me that "The secret things belong to God". This means that we'll never understand it all or even come close...this is where our faith comes into being. We don't even have much knowledge about Jesus...John 21:25 says that He did many other things we do not know about...that if every one of them were written down, there would not be enough room to store the books in the world (must be an overstatement). God is not out to "get" man or woman...He does not want anyone to be destroyed. That's where that "love" part comes into play.
idea
Question Everything
Hell is not pretty and everyone would like for it to not exist, but no one can deny that it is in the Bible - OT and NT.
of course all will be judged fairly, all will be given knowledge - in this life or in the next - and God did not create everything, He is not responsible for hell.Just for a ref, I will post these scripts...
Hell
Deut. 32:22 shall burn unto the lowest h.
Ps. 9:17 wicked shall be turned into h.
Ps. 16:10 (Acts 2:27, 31) thou wilt not leave my soul in h.
Ps. 86:13 delivered my soul from the lowest h.
Prov. 27:20 H. and destruction are never full
Isa. 14:9 H. from beneath is moved for thee
Isa. 14:15 thou shalt be brought down to h.
Isa. 57:9 didst debase thyself even unto h.
Ezek. 32:21 shall speak to him out of the midst of h.
Jonah 2:2 out of the belly of h. cried I
Matt. 5:22 say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of h. fire
Matt. 5:29 (18:9; Mark 9:43; ) not that thy whole body should be cast into h.
Matt. 10:28 (Luke 12:5) fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in h.
Matt. 11:23 (Luke 10:15) Capernaum ... shalt be brought down to h.
Matt. 16:18 gates of h. shall not prevail against it
Matt. 25:41 Depart ... into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
Mark 9:43 (Isa. 66:24; ) go into h., into the fire that never shall be quenched
Luke 16:23 in h. he lift up his eyes, being in torments
2 Pet. 2:4 cast them down to h., and delivered them
Rev. 1:18 I ... have the keys of h.
Rev. 6:8 sat on him was Death, and H. followed
Rev. 19:20 cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone
Rev. 20:13 death and h. delivered up the dead
Rev. 21:8 lake which burneth ... which is the second death
Personally I think second death will be spirits that do not get a body (soul = spirit + body) without a body they will not be able to inflict any damage on anyone anymore... I do not take the "flames" part literally, I do think they are probably miserable spirits that will bring their own misery on themself.
of course all will be judged fairly, all will be given knowledge - in this life or in the next - and God did not create everything, He is not responsible for hell.Just for a ref, I will post these scripts...
Hell
Deut. 32:22 shall burn unto the lowest h.
Ps. 9:17 wicked shall be turned into h.
Ps. 16:10 (Acts 2:27, 31) thou wilt not leave my soul in h.
Ps. 86:13 delivered my soul from the lowest h.
Prov. 27:20 H. and destruction are never full
Isa. 14:9 H. from beneath is moved for thee
Isa. 14:15 thou shalt be brought down to h.
Isa. 57:9 didst debase thyself even unto h.
Ezek. 32:21 shall speak to him out of the midst of h.
Jonah 2:2 out of the belly of h. cried I
Matt. 5:22 say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of h. fire
Matt. 5:29 (18:9; Mark 9:43; ) not that thy whole body should be cast into h.
Matt. 10:28 (Luke 12:5) fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in h.
Matt. 11:23 (Luke 10:15) Capernaum ... shalt be brought down to h.
Matt. 16:18 gates of h. shall not prevail against it
Matt. 25:41 Depart ... into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
Mark 9:43 (Isa. 66:24; ) go into h., into the fire that never shall be quenched
Luke 16:23 in h. he lift up his eyes, being in torments
2 Pet. 2:4 cast them down to h., and delivered them
Rev. 1:18 I ... have the keys of h.
Rev. 6:8 sat on him was Death, and H. followed
Rev. 19:20 cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone
Rev. 20:13 death and h. delivered up the dead
Rev. 21:8 lake which burneth ... which is the second death
Personally I think second death will be spirits that do not get a body (soul = spirit + body) without a body they will not be able to inflict any damage on anyone anymore... I do not take the "flames" part literally, I do think they are probably miserable spirits that will bring their own misery on themself.