The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

[mickiel]

mickiel the bible says God is light and thier is no darkeness in him.As i said it is not his nature to sin. You really cant be tempted by something that is not your nature to do. Example i can be a serial killer but this is not my nature or will ever be my nature to serial kill. I have the capacity to be one but it is not my nature, God is exactly like this he has the capacity to sin but this is not his nature. Since God is light and has no darkeness only the capacity for it . Is it impossible for God to commit sin . Yes it is as He is light and sin is darkeness. They are both to different creatures. Two extreme contrasts. That does not neglect the possibilty he has the capacity to sin.The reality has been shown as Christ became sin so we can become righteous. In this capacity God has proven all wrong and has been as sin for us.

Well I agree with you here. It is not Gods nature to sin, but if he wants to sin, then a new standard would be created. But he does not want that. Oh but no human can take to themselves the arrogance to say what God will not do. Because God IS the standard, and such power as his is beyond even our definition of what sin is. In Gods hand, sin is being used , like a potter uses clay, to mold things far beyond our comprehension, and we are too insignificant to judge him on what he is doing. God is obviously using evil in his work. We cannot define sin properly, and then use that definition to judge God.

Even if God lies, he is Holy and without corruption, and what we define as a lie, cannot be held against him, because all he does, is Righteous. If you tell a lie, in order to help someone, then is your lie deceitful, with bad intent? And this is just human reasoning, which is far different than Holy things. God allowed Jesus to be killed, his own Son. Jesus death was an evil act done by humans, but the resulting signifigance , is by far, the best thing to happen to humanity. The most evil thing that humans did, will result in the best thing that could have happened to humanity.

So as far as God is concerned, he cannot be limited to what we discern as good and evil.

Peace.

 

[Clear]

“Even if God lies, he is Holy and without corruption, and what we define as a lie, cannot be held against him, because all he does, is Righteous.

If Mickiel's God lies, then Mickiel's God is a liar. No one can have faith in Mickiel's sort of God.

Consider what would happen if Mickiel’s God IS a LIAR and IS lying to all of us. What if we cannot trust ANY of Mickiel’s God’s teachings because he is lying to us (but somehow still is righteous? - go figure....). What if Mickiel’s God simply TOLD us that he would reward us if we did what he said. What if Mickiel’s God is LYING.

The point is that if Mickiel’s God is a liar, then it destroys all possibility of having faith in this lying God and in the promises of this lying God.

Mickiel says "it is not in god's nature to sin" - what if Mickiel's God is LYING about his own nature and it IS in Mickiel's God's nature to sin? How can we tell, since, Mickiel's God could be lying to us? It makes NO sense to claim God can lie AND that a God would remain righteous if they did so...

If we are going to abandon sense, for non-sense, then what purpose is there in a non-sensical discussion about God? If we abandon logic, then what is the purpose of being part of an illogical and nonsensical discussion?

My only point was that, in the earliest christianity, The Christians did NOT teach that God either rewarded NOR punished UNLESS there was adequate knowledge and understanding given. It is the more modern Christians who have come up with the concept of of God torturing the guiltless who have not heard and understood sufficient truth upon which choice can be made. The earliest Christians did NOT dam infants who died not long after birth to hell because they were not baptised, or because they had not "accepted Christ". It is the modern doctrine that does this injustice, but not the earliest Christian doctrines. Mickiel's teachings are a strange caricature of Christianity. They are counterfeit and I, as a christian do not blame the agnostic and athiest complaint that such stuff is twisted and strange and represent unjust concepts. However, I would remind them that the stuff he teaches represents Mickiel and NOT true christianity.

A just God CANNOT and does NOT condemn when sufficient knowledge has not been give. (NOR DOES AN HONEST GOD LIE....)


With abandonment of common sense and logic, the thread has lost it's value. I think I am going to bail out of this thread and go back to earth.

Clear
eiseacdrfuei

 

[GodLoves666]

There is no ******* god!!!! End of debate!!!!! If your 555 then im 666:d

 

[URAVIP2ME]

URAVIP2ME :

I do not understand what you are trying to say. I mention the doctrine that God is a JUST God and he must give men adequate moral opportunity to avoid moral punishment.

Your response is that "God commits judgment to Jesus"; and you rightly explain that “all should repent” I agree with these principles. However, there are billions who have lived and died without ever hearing about Jesus.

Many died without “accepting Jesus” because the had no knowledge or no understanding of him. God (or his son) cannot punish these individuals for not having “accepted Jesus” while they lived if he did not provide them with sufficient knowledge and understanding of how they were to be saved.

It’s not just aborigines, but billions lived and died in times and places where they did not hear of Jesus. Infants and small children have died before obtaining knowledge and understanding of how the might be saved. These too, CANNOT justly be punished for not having accepted Jesus if they did not have opportunity.

There are others. There are the mentally infirm; the insane; the mentally retarded; MILLIONS in other categories who have not; who could not accept Jesus. These also, CANNOT just be punished for mental faculties they lacked which may have allowed them to accept their Savior (or to make other moral choices that other religions might require).


Remember, my point is simply that God cannot justly punish one for not having knowledge God did not give them, or for not making a choice they had no ability to make.

Clear
eisesiacfudr

Please refer back to my previous post. I did mention Romans (6:7) in connection to the many that have already died whether Christian or not.

Romans (6:7) applies to all people except for those of Matthew (12:32); Hebrews (6:4-6). All that are dead according to Romans (6:7) are freed or acquitted from sin. What is there to punish if one is freed or acquitted?
Like when a governor pardons a person, it does not mean they are innocent but that the charges no longer stick. The charges of sin then no longer stick once a person has died.

What did Jesus believe happens to a person when they die? Since Jesus at John (11:11) likened death to sleep, then Jesus believed dead people are in a sleep-like state until resurrection day- Acts 24:15.

Where did Jesus get the idea that the dead are in death's sleep?
King Solomon, known for his wisdom, wrote for us at Ecclesiastes (9:5,10) that the dead do not know anything. So the dead are not conscious of anything. The Psalmist agree. Psalm (6:5) says in death there is no remembrance.... Psalm (13:3) talks of the sleep of death. Psalm (115:17) says the dead do not praise.... Psalm (146:4) says at death thoughts perish.

So what did Jesus think he would be doing while he was buried in hell (Acts 2:27,31) until God resurrected him? Jesus believed he would be in an unconscious sleep-like state. No pain, no bliss. Hell being the common grave of mankind. Since Jesus was from the heavens Jesus was resurrected back to the spirit realm. Revelation (5:9,10) talks of ones being bought from earth to serve with Jesus as kings and priests.

But what about the majority of mankind such as the ones you mentioned?
Since the vast majority being dead have paid for sin by dying (Romans 6:7), but not being one of Christ's 'brothers' (see Matthew 25:40), they can be part of the sheep-like humble meek that will inherit the earth, or earthly realm of God's kingdom as Jesus promised when he referred to Psalm (37:11,29,38) that the meek will inherit the earth.

During resurrection day, or in other words, Jesus thousand-year day, Jesus will awaken all from death's sleep. (except Matt 12:32;Heb 6:4-6) and at that time they (the resurrected dead) will be judged by Jesus by how they respond to what they learn about him at that time because at that time they will have the ability to make that choice. Job (33:24-33)

It is in our time frame, that the global or world-wide warning to repent is going out by the proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom as to what will be the solution to mankind's troubles (Matthew 24:14; 28:19,20). That warning is for all because by the time Jesus comes in action to execute the wicked off the face of the earth (Proverbs 2:21,22;10:30; Psalm 92:7) there will only be left those Jesus judges as men of goodwill to either continue living through the great tribulation (Rev. 7:9,10,14) to remain on earth, or those he choses as his 'brothers' (Matt 25:40) to serve with him in heaven to rule over earth.


Isaiah 11:4; Revelation 19:11,15.

 

[mickiel]

If Mickiel's God lies, then Mickiel's God is a liar. No one can have faith in Mickiel's sort of God.

I didnot say that the God I believe in lies, he does not. I said if he did, then the standard for lying would just be changed.

And by the way, the God I believe in, is not the God you believe in. My God is different than yours. You can say what your God willnot Do, the God I believe in can do Anything, and I can't say that he can't do anything. I see you said your bailing out of this thread, if your not lying, then peace to you on your way in life.

 

[shadze]

Well I agree with you here. It is not Gods nature to sin, but if he wants to sin, then a new standard would be created. But he does not want that. Oh but no human can take to themselves the arrogance to say what God will not do. Because God IS the standard, and such power as his is beyond even our definition of what sin is. In Gods hand, sin is being used , like a potter uses clay, to mold things far beyond our comprehension, and we are too insignificant to judge him on what he is doing. God is obviously using evil in his work. We cannot define sin properly, and then use that definition to judge God.

Even if God lies, he is Holy and without corruption, and what we define as a lie, cannot be held against him, because all he does, is Righteous. If you tell a lie, in order to help someone, then is your lie deceitful, with bad intent? And this is just human reasoning, which is far different than Holy things. God allowed Jesus to be killed, his own Son. Jesus death was an evil act done by humans, but the resulting signifigance , is by far, the best thing to happen to humanity. The most evil thing that humans did, will result in the best thing that could have happened to humanity.

So as far as God is concerned, he cannot be limited to what we discern as good and evil.

Peace.

Very fascinating and awesome quote well done.

 

[mickiel]

A just God CANNOT and does NOT condemn when sufficient knowledge has not been give. (NOR DOES AN HONEST GOD LIE....)


Clear
eiseacdrfuei

Here again we see a most unusual christian habit. Notice again the use of the term " Cannot". Christians love to hear themselves say what God " Cannot Do." They just like talking like that, thinking like that. It is a subversive way of challenging God, limiting him, really, its testing him. God can't do this and can't do that, and this egotism and gall has spread into their doctrines.

Peace.

 

[Muffled]

I agree that hell is a disgusting concept used to trap people with fear. No all-powerful 'good' and loving God would, in my opinion, allow such a thing to exist. Especially an -eternal- place of suffering. Only a complete sadist would allow such a thing.

If God doesn't allow it then He could only accomplish that by taking away free will. He is unwilling to do that because He didn't create us to be robots.

 

[Muffled]

rubbish their is no such thing as everlasting in the bibical language. Everlasting is a concept that was not within the Greeks concept. Those who translated the word Aoin to mean everlasting were in complete error. Aoin simply means a age . This has been a 2000 year debate within the church over the translation. simply put if punishment was only for a time . Then redemption is forever.

If the Greeks didn't ahve a word for it then they might have used the existing word Aion. In that case I would expect the context to make the difference.

The problem is that I don't see how anyone could escape Hell without God's intervention. There are no maps with an arrow saying "this way out." The catechism says that Jesus descended into Hell to preach the Gospel but the text is probably just the grave. I suspect the only person who knows whether anyone gets out of Hell is God and He isn't saying.

 

[mickiel]

The seduction of the christian mind is one of the creators of eternal hell torture. This hell belief has spread so much into the human physce, that hell has become as common place as Love. And as common as hate. One of the most popular " Human hate expressions", is for someone out of anger, to tell someonelse to " Go to Hell." Or " I wish you go to hell." Christians have planted this distorted doctrine so deep into human life, that it has perverted human life in many areas.

And I want to go into some of those areas.

Peace.

 

[Muffled]

The concept of Eternal Hell suffering is sick, also BECAUSE so many people have believed it.

THATS whats really frigthening, that we will accept sick concepts, but yet be personally convinced that they are NOT sick concepts. There are some Whites who still believe they are superior to blacks, mexicans or any other third world race. And they don't think that is sick. There are people who will steal things, and they don't think that is sick. There are men who hit women and they don't think that is sick.

There are people who believe that God is going to gather together all unbelievers, place them into a continual pain amplifier, keep them eternally conscious in constant pain, keep them from passing out, keep them from burning up, let their bodies burn, but just not combust into burnning up, keep their minds from going insane, but give them the ability to live forever without eating or sleeping, in essence create a totally new form of " Superhuman Sufferer." And they don't think this is Sick. They totally accept this, and then have the nerve to try and teach others about God.

Peace.

I think you must be reading someone's opinion of what Hell is like, perhaps Dante.

I don't know of any refeence that supports this concept.

To not be conscious is to be completely dead, an expiration of the spirit. I know no supporting verse for this either.

This is possible but there is no evidence to support it. The evidence is that the bodies burn up and the spirit remains conscious without the body. That spirit may believe that its body is burning but the reality is that the body doesn't exist.

I doubt that. However the spiritual mind is not the same as the physical mind.

A person gets to Hell by his beliefs. Of course it makes sense to persuade people to believe differently.

 

[mickiel]

. [/B]

A person gets to Hell by his beliefs. Of course it makes sense to persuade people to believe differently.

This is again a live example of the christian mind. The sheer thought that God would place a human in some hell inferno, just because they do not believe in him, is absurd. But christians " Intensely NEED for people to go to this hell in order to support their beliefs." In their self righteousness, they need to be saved, while others are condemned, its their way of doctrine. Others need to be punished forever, while they live forever in peace with God, and they think this is how the Great God has planned this.

They need you down, in order that they may be up.

Peace.

 

[LittleNipper]

Christian models of hell are worthless dribble, no matter who puts them out. God is greater than christian opinion, and he is the one who controls life and death. He has chosen life for all of humanity, thats why humanity was created.

I totally agree.:yes::yes::yes:

They are not "christian" models of hell. They are Biblical models; and for the "christian" that is what it should be about ----------not my values or opinions nor those of yours.

Agreement or disagreement is of little valuse unless it is Biblically based.

 

[LittleNipper]

I may not agree with you mikiel, but I understand what you are saying. My thoughts are even if he is an actual conscious being, and not just a force, he still is impersonal. The bible in my eyes is a story book not evidence in any way. So if you have things you consider evidence please list a few.

I would submit to you that the Bible, unlike most any other "religious" text, doesn't paint man in glowing terms. In fact, if the Bible was only the writings of men, they certainly made themselves seem rather stupid, arrogant, and selfish. Not the sort of things men like writing about themselves...

 

[mickiel]

They are not "christian" models of hell. They are Biblical models; .

Rubbish, the bible does not make a model out of the grave. Thats the work of christians.

Peace.

 

[LittleNipper]

Rubbish, the bible does not make a model out of the grave. Thats the work of christians.

Peace.

"Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." Isaiah 66:24

"His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matthew 3:12

"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Matthew 24:31

"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
" 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:47-48

Peace

 

[mickiel]

Rev. 21:4;" And there shall be no more death, there will no longer be any mourning, crying or Pain ( all of which would always exist if there was an eternal hell), for all these things will " Pass Away."

Now if there were to be an eternal hell world created for suffering, it would be the greatest tribulation ever. But Jesus said in Matt. 24:21 that the tribulation that will end this human age will be the greatest ever to occur, and he said such a thing would " Never ever occur again."

In Romans 5:18 because of one mans sin there resulted condemnation to ALL men. Because of one mans act of Righteousness, that resulted in the Justification of Life to ALL humans. Now its not fair or just that all humans be condemned, because of just " One" thing Adam did. Just one thing, and we all get condemned. That just does not seem fair. Conversely, just that " One" thing Jesus did, gave his Life, that saves every single human being who will ever live. And many of these humans will be evil, unbelievers, and it just does not seem fair to the believer, that the unbeliever be complettely pardoned. But thats Gods amazing grace.

1Tim. 2:2-3, it is good and acceptable TO GOD ( not to christians though) that ALL humans be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. God DESIRES this, and nothing can stop Gods desires, he gets what he wants, Job 23:13.

Peace.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

2nd Peter (3:9) adds that God is not willing any should perish, but repent.
Those of Matthew (12:32) and Hebrews (6:4-6) are not repentant.
That is why Matthew (20:28) says Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many' not all.

We can see that hell is Not eternal because Revelation (20:13,14) shows that those in hell (gravedom) are delivered up from hell. After hell is emptied out, then both death and hell die a symbolic death or the second death of verse 14. Even Satan will be destroyed as Hebrews 2:14 B brings out in fulfillment of Genesis 3:15.

 

[mickiel]

2nd Peter (3:9) adds that God is not willing any should perish, but repent.
Those of Matthew (12:32) and Hebrews (6:4-6) are not repentant.
That is why Matthew (20:28) says Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many' not all.

We can see that hell is Not eternal because Revelation (20:13,14) shows that those in hell (gravedom) are delivered up from hell. After hell is emptied out, then both death and hell die a symbolic death or the second death of verse 14. Even Satan will be destroyed as Hebrews 2:14 B brings out in fulfillment of Genesis 3:15.

I agree with some of this, but 1Tim.2:6 does state that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for ALL. So Matt. 20:28 shouldnot be misunderstood.

Peace.

 

[shadze]

I agree with some of this, but 1Tim.2:6 does state that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for ALL. So Matt. 20:28 shouldnot be misunderstood.

Peace.

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Interesting as you view both scriptures. What the church hasn't got over is what i call the elitist doctrine. That they are all God saves. Everyone else is either in punishment and torment or is annihilated. Both beliefs are really a joke. As God had no need to go through this process so only a few are saved. It would be more practical to destroy Adam and Eve and recreate mankind again. Hence no need for millions to suffer unnecessary for the choice of One Man .


In Romans 5:18 because of one mans sin there resulted condemnation to ALL men. Because of one mans act of Righteousness, that resulted in the Justification of Life to ALL humans. Now its not fair or just that all humans be condemned, because of just " One" thing Adam did. Just one thing, and we all get condemned. That just does not seem fair. Conversely, just that " One" thing Jesus did, gave his Life, that saves every single human being who will ever live. And many of these humans will be evil, unbelievers, and it just does not seem fair to the believer, that the unbeliever be complettely pardoned. But thats Gods amazing grace

Mikiel this is well done and is Gods sensible answer . Through One Mans sin all are condemned and by One Mans righteousness all are saved. What is a great laugh is we had no choice to be born into sin - With Christs death neither do we have any choice to be born into righteousness. Christ has sure paid this for all mankind as much as Adam has condemned us. We will all be born into righteousness through the Grace of Christ Jesus. The Church has assumed what God means.Thier is no scripture to say God does not save after Death. We have assumed this. God can save his creation anytime he wants to. We who are Christian don't deserve salvation all its reward. Neither have we earned it. We are in reality no different from the unsaved. Our salvation is based on Christs grace. As I have said I do not begrudge the unsaved their salvation. God will purify them , make them a new creation, and all will glorify the wisdom of our God.