~Amin~
God is the King
Please elaborate.
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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.
- Thread starter mickiel
- Start date
Wandered Off
Sporadic Driveby Member
The sentence immediately following what you quoted was intended as elaboration.
~Amin~
God is the King
Ok I'm sorry i understand your point, but to you it may seem not to work
but its a reality ie if a man commits murder using a gun which wouldn't even
take a second to pull the trigger, in America he would face a LIFE sentence or
EVEN execution, so could we now accuse our own society of being Wrong?
True according to the Criminals crime which they CHOSE, they will be dealt with, not EVERYONE will be incarcerated forever.
NewAgeOfReason
New Member
well, i don't seem tot be much at home with ur views. i'll be back to state why.
AK4
Well-Known Member
For all you people out there who believe in an eternal suffering in hell, this SHOULD open your eyes a little. If not then you should really do some soul searching to find out why.
Here is the simple answer to see that IF hell did exist, its not eternal: In Psalm 49:15 the word translated "grave" is the Hebrew word "sheol." It is the same Hebrew word translated "hell" in Psa. 9:17, 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, and 139:8. Why didn’t they translate it "hell" in Psa. 49:15? Simple, because this particular verse says that a soul can be "REDEEMED FROM THE POWER OF SHEOL," and if they would have been consistent and translated it "hell", then all Christians and readers of God’s Word could easily see (and rightly so) that souls could be "redeemed from the power of HELL"!
Could it get any more simpler than this?!
Here is the simple answer to see that IF hell did exist, its not eternal: In Psalm 49:15 the word translated "grave" is the Hebrew word "sheol." It is the same Hebrew word translated "hell" in Psa. 9:17, 16:10, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, and 139:8. Why didn’t they translate it "hell" in Psa. 49:15? Simple, because this particular verse says that a soul can be "REDEEMED FROM THE POWER OF SHEOL," and if they would have been consistent and translated it "hell", then all Christians and readers of God’s Word could easily see (and rightly so) that souls could be "redeemed from the power of HELL"!
Could it get any more simpler than this?!
~Amin~
God is the King
We must look overall in Scripture not pick specific parts only.
In the New Testament, the notion of hell is more clearly expressed, but still not in a systematic way. In many cases, "death" and "destruction" are the only mentioned penalties for rejecting God (e.g., Matthew 7:13, John 3:16, Acts 4:12, Romans 6:23, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, James 1:15). Also, as noted in the section above, the same terminology is often used in the New Testament that in the Jewish context may have suggested nothing more than physical death and destruction of the soul.
New Testament passages that have suggested eternal torment to Christians include the following:
"Anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22, quoting Jesus)
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.")
"Do not be afriad of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, quoting Jesus)
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42, quoting Jesus)
"Throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Parable of the Talents, Matthew 25:30)
"Then he [the King] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:41)
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." (James 3:6)
"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15)
"The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile...the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulpher. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matthew 5:29, quoting Jesus; see parallel passage in Mark 9:44, which adds, "where the fire never goes out.")
"Do not be afriad of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, quoting Jesus)
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:40-42, quoting Jesus)
"Throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Parable of the Talents, Matthew 25:30)
"Then he [the King] will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, Matthew 25:41)
"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell." (James 3:6)
"The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:13-15)
"The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile...the idolaters and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulpher. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)
Sheol and hades (the common grave of mankind) is not from the word Gehenna as hell fire or fires of hell is. Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and not kept burning forever.
Gehenna is a fitting symbol of destruction.
Yes, quoting Jesus at Matthew 10:28 Jesus believed the soul can be destroyed.
Jesus believed the soul was not death proof but mortal.
Ezekiel (18:4,20) wrote the soul that sins dies.
Matthew chapter 13 is an illustration or parable. Not a literal happening.
The weeds (tares) were burned up in destruction not kept around forever.
What is the fire for the devil, isn't it 'second death'? Rev 20:10,14;21:8
Death according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 is a state of knowing nothing.
Doesn't Hebrews 2:14 B show Jesus will destroy the devil?
From Matthew 25:41 continuing to verse 46 we see the end result is everlasting punishment, not everlasting flames. 2nd Thess 1:9 connects punishment to destruction.
James 3:6 is a reference to Gehenna and not sheol or hades.
The definition of the Lake of Fire is given as: the second death.
What is the first death like?
Didn't Jesus liken death to sleep at John 11:11-14?
That meant that Jesus believed that while he was buried in hell (sheol/hades) that he would be a deep sleep-like state. - Acts 2:27,31.
Jesus would have gotten that idea from Solomon's words at Ecc 9:5,10, and the Psalms such as:
Psalm 6:5 that in death there is no remembrance.
Psalm 13:3 the dead sleep the sleep of death
Psalm 115:17 the dead do not praise God
Psalm 146:4 at death thinking stops.
Jesus from the spirit world was resurrected by God to heaven, but besides heaven the prophet Daniel (12:2) looked forward to an earthly resurrection that those asleep in the dust of the ground will awaken. They will awaken from death's sleep on resurrection morning during Jesus 1000-year rule over earth- Acts 24:15; Romans 6:7.
All in hell will be delivered up from hell as Rev 20:13,14 says.
Then it is emptied-out hell that is cast into second death.
However, those that are part of the second death will have No chance of a resurrection to either to heaven or earthly because they have committed the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6.
Satan is a sinner and sinners pay for their sins with death.
Jesus is the 'seed' of Genesis 3:15 that will deal Satan a fatal death bruise to his head. Satan will be destroyed- Hebrews 2:14 B. No future life for Satan but the symbolic fiery lake which is the second death.
All that are part of the first death will come to see an end to that death as Rev 21:3,4 says that there will be: No more death. Our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing 1 Cor 15:26. Our last enemy then, is not forever flames, but death. Isaiah 25:8 assures that death will be swallowed up. When something is swallowed up it is gone.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
Our societies wrong in many ways. Anyway, to clarify, are you comparing a few years with all eternity?
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
The consequence you're alluding to, eternal suffering, would be in this case, an artificial one. If this hell existed (which to my understanding is not supported in scripture) and if this god existed as you describe then hell is a consequence he created. Now, one would expect an all-knowing all power and all loving being to have the intellegence to come up with a better system not requiring eternal torment, one that allowed for justice without a disproportionatly sadistic, eternal sentance.
If a father told he's children he'd beat them if they didn't steel him some beer, they did not and where beaten do we blame that consequence on them? The beating's hell, the father and children refference should be self evident.
Punished? Crimes? No, the god you believe in does not punish for crimes, he abuses for sins. And what is a sin? Anything he doesn't happen to like at the moment. Sin has nothing to do with crimes, right, or wrong, it's merely determined by the emotional state of this god. And who would he be to condem anyone for their crimes? If the abrahamic god was real, he'd be the most blood soaked being in this reality.
And finally, don't forget that it's generally held in christain theology that those who do not accept jesus will be sent to hell. Not for any crimes, any misdeeds or anything 'bad', simply for not believing in something.
Sin is Not anything that God does not like at the moment.
What God considers or judges as sin is recorded in Scripture for all to read.
Devils believe (James 2:19) but they do not obey.
All die. That means all go to hell, so to speak. Jesus died and went to hell as Acts 2:27,31 says. What brings forth death according to Scripture is sin.
If we could stop sinning we would not die. Since we can't stop we die.
Jesus knew the Hebrew OT Scriptures, and that meant Jesus would know what hell would be like. Solomon wrote the dead know nothing- Ecc 9:5,10.
The Psalmist liken death to a deep sleep without any thoughts.
(Psalm: 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4)
That is why Jesus would also liken death to being asleep at John 11:11-14.
What hope is there for those sleeping in hell (gravedom) but as Romans (6:7) says the one who has died is freed or acquitted from sins. That does not mean innocent from sin, but as a governor can pardon a person means the charges (sin) no longer stick. Death then entitles one to a resurrection of the just and unjust.- Acts 24:15. Only those of Matthew 12:32; Hebrew 6:4-6 experience 'second death' or no chance of future life either in heaven or on earth.
As far as mankind that is alive or living at the time Jesus takes action toward earth, there is a great multitude of people out of all nations that are delivered or saved alive at that time as Rev. 7:9,10,14 shows. These people are the living sheep-like ones of Matthew 25:32 when Jesus as Shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. Goats go Not to hell (gravedom) but into everlasting punishment as verse 46 says. 2nd Thess 1:9 equates punishment as everlasting destruction. Destruction is not flames but to perish and not have everlasting life anywhere.-John 3:16; Psalm 92:7.
Since God warns first (Eze. 3:18-21) before taking action, the proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom as the solution to mankind's problems is being done on a global scale today just as Matthew (24:14) brings out before there is the end of all badness on earth.
Jesus, as Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6,7), will usher in Peace on Earth toward all men of good will, and as Daniel (12:2) says the sleeping dead will awaken from the dust of the ground. They will awaken on resurrection morning during Jesus 1000-year rule over earth. Then, even death for mankind on earth will be no more.- Rev 21:3,4.
.
~Amin~
God is the King
The reason for the conection between these two numbers,so far from
one another, is this: Since murder and unbelief are distruction and aggression
they have an affect on others. A murder which takes one minute negates
on average at least fifteen years of the victims life, so the murderer is in
prison in their place. While since one minute of unbelief denies a thousand
and one Divine Names and denegrates their inscriptions, violates the rights
of the universe and denies it's perfections, and gives the lie to innumerable
evidences, of Divine Unity and rejects their testimony,the unbeliever is cast
down to the lowest of the low for more than a thousand years and" DWELLS" in
imprisonment.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
Thou shalt not kill, one of the ten commandments, key to the Torah. Yet, how many times does the bible depict this god killing, or ordering his chosen people to kill? He even punishes Isreal when a genocide is not completed. Yes, sin is nothing more than what this god fancies at the time.
So to speak?
There is no Hebrew OT.
Hell's not found in the Tanack. Hell comes into play in the NT, which was not available to jesus.
You seem to be confused. If you follow the statistics life get's considerably better in the least religious countries. This god is not a solution to mankind's problems, it's a cause.
Neither of those books has anything to do with jesus.
Cobblestones
Devoid of Ettiquette
And just what type of intelligent being would invent Hell in the first place except one that is incapable of tolerating behaviour that is natural to human beings? And if God created people who simply behave as they were designed then what reason would he have to cast them into torment? The entire concept of Hell indicates that your god is not loving, kind, merciful or even rational, sane or sensible. It also indicates that anyone who follows a god who would create such a place is essentially insecure, inept and inhuman.
~Amin~
God is the King
What kind of behaviour?
What about paradise isnt that an indication of His Love and
Grace?
We dont follow God, we follow th messengers of God.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I view it differently. What you have described is warmed over Judaism with a living Messiah.
However far a person is from the reality, the appelation describes just what it says that there are people who belive in Jesus.
There are those who would claim a JW isn't a Christian but I have never met one who didn't believe in Jesus in some fashion (I say that because they hardly ever seem to get their facts straight). There are those who think Mormons aren't Christian but I have never met one who didn't believe in Jesus (despite some people's view that it is a different Jesus).
Muffled
Jesus in me
Whether something is simple or complicated, does not determine whether something is true. DNA is very complicated and true.
These are obviously mistranslations since this information wasn't available to those who wrote those verses. Can we define backwards? Possibly, if it looks like Hell and smells like Hell it ought to be called Hell even if our forebears didn't know about it.
This is the problem with translations is it not? It is possible to pick meanings that agree with our own beliefs. For instance I define Paraclete as "joined by invitation." (The one who is) That is because I believe we invite the Holy Spirit to be in us and we bonded to Him.
Here is a verse that says that Hell (Hades) doesn't always hold on to her dead:
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
AK4
Well-Known Member
An universal truth is a universal truth. Its not "picking specific parts". God is love. This is a universal truth. Hell is not love in any form or fashion. Hell is not a scripture word either.
But i think overall we are in agreement about the death issue, but hell doesnt exist. Its a christian hoax