The Sociopath in the Sky

[Gjallarhorn]

I think you went wrong on 4) and 5). Man has a free will through the spark of the One that is in him. This free will wants to return to the One. The free will of the soul attempts to lead a man to a higher state. But the body is attracted to things and will act in lower ways to get things. Therein lies the struggle in mortal life.

How can free will lead? Free will, if it is anything, is led or coerced.

If the soul wants one thing and the body wants another, obviously something else is supposedly free to decide.

The ultimate reconciliation bit solidifies the un-free will.

 

[George-ananda]

How can free will lead? Free will, if it is anything, is led or coerced.

Maybe the term 'free will' as is used in western debates shouldn't be used in Advaitan thought. As I said before there is really only one free will; Brahman's. This is all a scripted play. Brahman is both the actors and the playwright.

If the soul wants one thing and the body wants another, obviously something else is supposedly free to decide.

I have heard it called the Buddhi. The Buddhi devolops through experience. From wikipedia:

Buddhi denotes an aspect of mind that is higher than the rational mind and that is attracted to Brahman (i.e., to "Truth" (sat) or "Reality" (dharma)). Unlike manas, which is a composite of mind and ego deriving from an aggrandized "I-sense" that takes pleasure in pursuing worldly aims and sense pleasures, buddhi is that faculty that makes wisdom possible.


But actually thanks, Gjallarhorn. I need to be challenged on these things because my understanding needs to be refined.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I think you went wrong on 4) and 5). Man has a free will through the spark of the One that is in him. This free will wants to return to the One. The free will of the soul attempts to lead a man to a higher state. But the body is attracted to things and will act in lower ways to get things. Therein lies the struggle in mortal life. Eventually, through lifetimes, the soul advances through struggles (karma) and will gain greater control of the lower body and a more spiritual person will emerge.

Doesn't that contradict that only God have freewill? And if God set everything into play exactly how it is (assuming you believe God did), why create self-defeating struggles and temptations in the first place?

Brahman alone is real. The universe is a great thought-form of Brahman's creative aspect. He pours Himself into this creation and then returns the creation back into Himself. As Krishna says (speaking as the Absolute): I separated Myself from Myself and became all this. We humans are trying to find our way back to the One. Creation is the Lord's play/drama in this view. In the end we will all be successful.

Interesting. That is very close to how I view God, the only thing I'd disagree on is him being more than the universe, I'd say he's the entirety of the universe, the body is the universe and not just a part of it.

Just thought I'd mention that.

 

[George-ananda]

Doesn't that contradict that only God have freewill?

See my last post to Gjallarhorn. Maybe the term 'freewill' as used in western debates is not applicable to Advaitan thought.

And if God set everything into play exactly how it is (assuming you believe God did), why create self-defeating struggles and temptations in the first place?

It is all a divine drama with a happy ending for all. In the middle of any great drama there are people struggling with self-defeating behavior and temptations. Why does Brahman create? Why do people write dramas? The best answer I've heard is that it is a direct outpouring of Brahman's creative aspect. Is this better than a static-state sameness?

Interesting. That is very close to how I view God, the only thing I'd disagree on is him being more than the universe, I'd say he's the entirety of the universe, the body is the universe and not just a part of it.

Just thought I'd mention that.

Interesting. But I think there's a dichotomy between consciousness (the real) and matter (the unreal) in the universe. The real is the screen on which the movie (the unreal) plays.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

See my last post to Gjallarhorn. Maybe the term 'freewill' as used in western debates is not applicable to Advaitan thought.

That may be the case, but I can't envision or never saw freewill as a differential concept. But all that matters in this debate would be your understanding of it, as we are discussing your view on this. So how would you define freewill?

It is all a divine drama with a happy ending for all. In the middle of any great drama there are people struggling with self-defeating behavior and temptations. Why does Brahman create? Why do people write dramas? The best answer I've heard is that it is a direct outpouring of Brahman's creative aspect. Is this better than a static-state sameness?

I'm not speaking of a fully peaceful world that would have everyone the same. I'm talking a world with justified torment to humans because looking at the world, an intervening God would have to be torturing us for either entertainment or out of impatient anger. There are so many innocents getting hurt, and if a God that made the world the way it is does exist, there's no way to justify all of the wickedness in nature.

 

[George-ananda]

That may be the case, but I can't envision or never saw freewill as a differential concept. But all that matters in this debate would be your understanding of it, as we are discussing your view on this. So how would you define freewill?

I see freewill as part of the western materialism viewpoint debate. If we are all reducible to atoms, molecules, electrons and each of those just follows it's natural movement then how can a collection of such parts do anything but follow the natural course. So where can freewill be in this thinking? The western freewill proponents believe there is an aspect to man that is not what we call physical (a soul?). At least that's how I've thought of it.

The concepts are different in Advaita so I'm not sure the term 'freewill' is applicable.

I'm not speaking of a fully peaceful world that would have everyone the same. I'm talking a world with justified torment to humans because looking at the world, an intervening God would have to be torturing us for either entertainment or out of impatient anger. There are so many innocents getting hurt, and if a God that made the world the way it is does exist, there's no way to justify all of the wickedness in nature.

You are looking at this from a dualist perspective (God and creation are two separate things).

In non-dual thinking who is the tormentor and the tormented; both God. Who is the lover and the loved; both God. It's a divine drama. He is not doing to us; He's doing to Himself. So this 'victim thinking' is not really applicable in non-dualism. The 'I' is a temporary illusion, Life is a journey from 'I' to 'We'. Remember, ultimately, it's a play with a happy ending.

 

[Draupadi]

I don't understand it; how can you say you have freewill, the freedom of choosing, but at the same time you'll go to hell if God doesn't have it his way?

I can't help but see this God of Abraham as a baby - kicking and screaming that it has to be his way. Or maybe a sociopath: He'll punch you in the face, apologize and tell you it was for the best, and he'll convince you that he's nice and caring until you put trust back in him, and once again he'll punch you in the face, rinse and repeat.

He tells you that you can do whatever you want, but really you can't. It's wordplay: you can do whatever you want, but you aren't allowed to do certain things. Then he sets up temptations for all of these things, you are circled in these temptations but you have to control yourself as he keeps making it harder and harder for you like a damn drill sergeant.

A mobster holds a gun to your head and says "You are free to choose whether or not you give me all of your money, but if you choose not to I'm going to shoot you." Hahaha, isn't that EXACTLY how it is with God? "You can murder as many people as you want, but we're going to take you to prison." Never heard a sane law enforcer say that.

You get into a car accident and break both of your legs, but God tells you "I saved your life, you only broke your legs, but I stopped you from dying." You don't thank him, you don't worship him, you don't trust him. You pluck out his eyes and kick him in the throat, and demand a reason why he allowed you to break your legs with the same power he allowed you to keep your life, or why he even didn't use that power to prevent a car crash at all! Even knowing that he's going to punish you more.

There's a God above us, telling people that in time things will get better, but they only do temporarily, until you put your trust into him, that's when they'll start to get worse again. He demands you to love him, threatens you if you don't. He promises peace and serenity but he is a Canaanite war god.

If we're all created in God's image, and we're born a sinner, then God himself is a sinner. If we are supposed to be peaceful, why did he make us with wrathful nature?

Freewill has nothing to do with any of this - it's entirely God's fault, because we have very little freewill compared to our emotions, personality, instincts, desires... all of that came with us, all of that is God-given, and all of that controls our behavior.

Back to the scenario with the mobster and the gun to your head - just burn the money and expect the worse. In order to make God lose, you have to lose as well.

/rant

I am not a very intelligent person or scholar, but what I am giving you is just my opinion. In Islam you have no concept of Original Sin and one individual won't be punished for the act of other. The Ahadith may say to the contrary but the Quran clearly states this. And as for God guiding whom He wills it is more of God showing some people MORE of the correct path. Like we ALL have access to Islamic knowledge but maybe some individual may personally experience God in a manner others can't, and hence (s)he will be more inclined towards Islam. Once I was an atheist but I still had this bias towards Islam. If I wanted I could have browsed Islamic sites and reverted. But I didn't. But something happened in my life in addition to a realisation, and I reverted.

It is written in the Quran that God had given the pharaoh of Moses' time opportunities to repent until his death. I don't think even the average prophets got this favour. And this is where I get confused. By declaring human beings above all creations God did show favouritism, so I can't deny it. And this is what I can't give you the answer to.

As for your example of accident some people have harder times. It is not always dependent on their deeds (remember Prophet Job)? And God Himself has declared in the Quran that we won't get paradise that easy. We will suffer as a test (especially in cases which are our weak points), and in many cases those sufferings will expiate some of our sins. But salvation is all to ourselves.

 

[Password]

What are some of the opposites of free will? I think firstly bondage.

 

[Draupadi]

Free will doesn't mean absolute freedom. The case is akin to mine living under my parents. I have to obey some things they say and I have the liberty to do the rest. In both the cases my parents/God asks us not to do things that are wrong, but we are not stopped.

 

[ametist]

God is looking at the whole of our reality from no time no place.It is a difficult concept to grasp but i think it helps to understand free will better.

Not having a free will would mean you wont be able to think of any murder let alone realize it so we absolutely have free will.
For example god made thought of murder and murder itself possible because it gave us free will. if we didnt have free will there would be no thought of murder
Also .if we didnt have free will there woulnt be no self recognition,individuality.there would only be the recognition of godself. Free will is yhe unavoidsbke outcome and driving force of creating this reality.
before trying to understand freewill it is better to work on why god created this reality.then it gets easier.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't understand it; how can you say you have freewill, the freedom of choosing, but at the same time you'll go to hell if God doesn't have it his way?

I can't help but see this God of Abraham as a baby - kicking and screaming that it has to be his way. Or maybe a sociopath: He'll punch you in the face, apologize and tell you it was for the best, and he'll convince you that he's nice and caring until you put trust back in him, and once again he'll punch you in the face, rinse and repeat.

He tells you that you can do whatever you want, but really you can't. It's wordplay: you can do whatever you want, but you aren't allowed to do certain things. Then he sets up temptations for all of these things, you are circled in these temptations but you have to control yourself as he keeps making it harder and harder for you like a damn drill sergeant.

A mobster holds a gun to your head and says "You are free to choose whether or not you give me all of your money, but if you choose not to I'm going to shoot you." Hahaha, isn't that EXACTLY how it is with God? "You can murder as many people as you want, but we're going to take you to prison." Never heard a sane law enforcer say that.

You get into a car accident and break both of your legs, but God tells you "I saved your life, you only broke your legs, but I stopped you from dying." You don't thank him, you don't worship him, you don't trust him. You pluck out his eyes and kick him in the throat, and demand a reason why he allowed you to break your legs with the same power he allowed you to keep your life, or why he even didn't use that power to prevent a car crash at all! Even knowing that he's going to punish you more.

There's a God above us, telling people that in time things will get better, but they only do temporarily, until you put your trust into him, that's when they'll start to get worse again. He demands you to love him, threatens you if you don't. He promises peace and serenity but he is a Canaanite war god.

If we're all created in God's image, and we're born a sinner, then God himself is a sinner. If we are supposed to be peaceful, why did he make us with wrathful nature?

Freewill has nothing to do with any of this - it's entirely God's fault, because we have very little freewill compared to our emotions, personality, instincts, desires... all of that came with us, all of that is God-given, and all of that controls our behavior.

Back to the scenario with the mobster and the gun to your head - just burn the money and expect the worse. In order to make God lose, you have to lose as well.

/rant

I've rarely come across an Abrahamic religious believer who has not struggled with the concept of free will vs. the doctrine of hell. Specifically if the believer categorizes hell as a place of existence waiting for unrepentant sinners, and God as a separate anthropomorphic deity who plays The Observer.

George Carlin was brilliant in his narrative about his concept of God and how he's a scam....threats of hell, but he loves you, and he NEEDS MONEY.

Anyway, I don't personally find myself at odds with doctrine anymore because I read it differently now as opposed to a historical work or a "how-to" manual for life. Biblical doctrine, to me, reads as the Greek myths do - mankind attempting to understand it's place in the Kosmos. It's a mythic narrative, so for me the richness pours out instead of a dry, impersonal horror novel full of misogyny and hatred....and instead of a self-help book about how Buddy Jesus soothes us with whatever it is we want to hear. Neither one of those approaches ever gave me a perspective that didn't have me spiraling into self-delusion or self-loathing. Neither one of those approaches ever gave me a perspective that didn't have me angry, frustrated, and hostile toward a creator deity that really just didn't care about his creation (except for those who kiss his ***).

The approach I take now toward religious doctrine as people writing their projections, hopes, fears, and educated guesses helps me step back and see humanity and the universe better. "Better" meaning I don't fall into the trap of loathing myself or a God-concept.

So back to the rant. You're not alone. People generally cope with the rant when they cross that bridge by:

- accepting Gods justice when they see people hurt by Gods actions
- rebelling against injustice and distancing themselves while exploring other pearls of wisdom
- searching for alternative explanations as an exercise in apologetics

From what I've seen, at least.

Keep up the good work, Sum. You'll find your way. :yes:

 

[Will Campbell]

I don't understand it; how can you say you have freewill, the freedom of choosing, but at the same time you'll go to hell if God doesn't have it his way?

I can't help but see this God of Abraham as a baby - kicking and screaming that it has to be his way. Or maybe a sociopath: He'll punch you in the face, apologize and tell you it was for the best, and he'll convince you that he's nice and caring until you put trust back in him, and once again he'll punch you in the face, rinse and repeat.

He tells you that you can do whatever you want, but really you can't. It's wordplay: you can do whatever you want, but you aren't allowed to do certain things. Then he sets up temptations for all of these things, you are circled in these temptations but you have to control yourself as he keeps making it harder and harder for you like a damn drill sergeant.

A mobster holds a gun to your head and says "You are free to choose whether or not you give me all of your money, but if you choose not to I'm going to shoot you." Hahaha, isn't that EXACTLY how it is with God? "You can murder as many people as you want, but we're going to take you to prison." Never heard a sane law enforcer say that.

You get into a car accident and break both of your legs, but God tells you "I saved your life, you only broke your legs, but I stopped you from dying." You don't thank him, you don't worship him, you don't trust him. You pluck out his eyes and kick him in the throat, and demand a reason why he allowed you to break your legs with the same power he allowed you to keep your life, or why he even didn't use that power to prevent a car crash at all! Even knowing that he's going to punish you more.

There's a God above us, telling people that in time things will get better, but they only do temporarily, until you put your trust into him, that's when they'll start to get worse again. He demands you to love him, threatens you if you don't. He promises peace and serenity but he is a Canaanite war god.

If we're all created in God's image, and we're born a sinner, then God himself is a sinner. If we are supposed to be peaceful, why did he make us with wrathful nature?

Freewill has nothing to do with any of this - it's entirely God's fault, because we have very little freewill compared to our emotions, personality, instincts, desires... all of that came with us, all of that is God-given, and all of that controls our behavior.

Back to the scenario with the mobster and the gun to your head - just burn the money and expect the worse. In order to make God lose, you have to lose as well.

/rant

Most wars, the Crusades, the Inquisitions, 9/11, blowing up girl's schools, the suppression of women and homosexuals, arranged marriages to minors, ethnic cleansing, the systematic raping of children, human sacrifice, burning witches, suicide bombings, condoning slavery.....if one can just overlook a few things religion has never done any harm.

 

[Pegg]

I don't believe in freewill anyways, and have an entirely different God concept. But I'm just seeking a way for this God to be justified for the way he presents reality.

Right now I'm convinced that, if both karma and the God of Abraham existed in the same universe, God (or what remains of him) would be fed to the homeless... alive.

God is not the ruler of this world and mankind are not under his dominion.

the whole point of the bible is to explain to us why that is the case, who is in control of things and what God is going to do about it.

Religions are under the dominion of the ruler of this world and that is why they teach lies. But the bible doesnt lie to us nor does it say that there is a hell. The bible hell is nothing more then the grave.

 

[Gehennaite]

I don't understand it; how can you say you have freewill, the freedom of choosing, but at the same time you'll go to hell if God doesn't have it his way?

I can't help but see this God of Abraham as a baby - kicking and screaming that it has to be his way.

As a once dedicated "theologian" and former Yahwist, I must tell you that your scriptural understanding of this God is not accurate. Yahweh is a universalistic, benevolent deity. All souls are saved under the dictatorship of Yahweh.

I don't have my old writings where I argued from the Greek & Hebrew vernacular saved, but even in the English translation the doctrine of universal salvation is imminent. Here's an argument I saved, though you'd have to look up the scriptures to verify this theology fully:

All these scriptures, in their own context, explicitly state that salvation has been given, unconditionally, to all men: (Romans 5:18, 1 Tim. 4:10, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, Titus 2:11, 2 Peter 3:9, John 12:32, Cor. 15:22, 2 Cor. 5:14)

Jesus Christ is not the "Savior of Believers", but is the "Savior of the World". The Greek word for "world" is cosmos. We all know that the "cosmos" expresses the principality of all reality (even in English). It is thus errant to believe that when Christ is given the titular "Savior of the Cosmos", that this excludes things within the cosmos: (1 John 4:14, John 4:42, 1 John 2:2)

In the prophetic, future tense there is no distinction between nations or humanity. ALL will acknowledge and worship God: (Rev. 15:4, Psa. 22:27, 29) This was the true meaning of the "message of reconciliation": (2 Cor. 5:18, 19)

Yahweh is not the model for all deities. Although atheists love to resort to this tactic, you can't reference Yahweh as a way to discredit deism or theism. It is quite possible that the true God is more benevolent, or perhaps even omnibenevolent in comparison.

 

[Will Campbell]

God is not the ruler of this world and mankind are not under his dominion.

the whole point of the bible is to explain to us why that is the case, who is in control of things and what God is going to do about it.

Religions are under the dominion of the ruler of this world and that is why they teach lies. But the bible doesnt lie to us nor does it say that there is a hell. The bible hell is nothing more then the grave.

Really?


Revelation 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Gehennaite]

Really?

Revelation 21:
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yep. Second death. Scripture postulates that death is a state of conscious nothingness. According to scripture, the second death is an eternal state of unconsciousness.

 

[Will Campbell]

Yep. Second death. Scripture postulates that death is a state of conscious nothingness. According to scripture, the second death is an eternal state of unconsciousness.

Really? Then why have a million preachers preached 100 million fire and brimstone sermons? I suppose you're the only one who really understands the bible. OK.....let's cut to the chase. You'll meet your ghost buddy when he comes in from the east floating on a cloud and leave me for chad because I don't believe your 2000 year old fairy tale.....is that about it?

 

[Gehennaite]

Really? Then why have a million preachers preached 100 million fire and brimstone sermons? I suppose you're the only one who really understands the bible. OK.....let's cut to the chase. You'll meet your ghost buddy when he comes in from the east floating on a cloud and leave me for chad because I don't believe your 2000 year old fairy tale.....is that about it?

I'm no longer a Yahwist, but from what I have seen there are plenty of Bible believing Universalists, though not very many. Ultimately, if there is a God, moral excellence is more than likely more important than belief.

I don't think you have much to worry about.

 

[Sir Doom]

Really? Then why have a million preachers preached 100 million fire and brimstone sermons? I suppose you're the only one who really understands the bible. OK.....let's cut to the chase. You'll meet your ghost buddy when he comes in from the east floating on a cloud and leave me for chad because I don't believe your 2000 year old fairy tale.....is that about it?

Something tells me you have not come anywhere near hearing 100 million sermons, let alone 100 million talking about fire and brimstone.

 

[Nakosis]

God does not demand anything. You are free to act out in any manner of your choosing.

Good and evil is the politics of man. Individuals trying to impose there own sense of right and wrong on each other.

Religious leaders, wise men, dictators, social leaders trying to provide guidelines for your or their own benefit.

Up to you to make the best or worst of life. Up to you to make your choices.

God is patient and a waits the time of your return. God will accept you when you are ready. That choice is entirely up to you.

There is no punishment other then you having to deal with the results/consequences of the choices you make. God imposes no laws. Other men do that. Maybe they are good men, maybe they are bad. You are free to accept these laws or reject them.

When you come before God, you will hold yourself accountable for every action and thought. You're own guilt will be the only burden/punishment.

You are as God expected you to be. The only question is, will you be able to forgive yourself.