The suffering servant of isaiah 53

[Charity]

Uh Ben, ......***cough*** you forgot to :clap after your last post....

 

[Ben Masada]

Uh Ben, ......***cough*** you forgot to :clap after your last post....

+++++++++++++++++++

Perhaps because there was no hand-clapping.

Ben :clap

 

[Charity]

+++++++++++++++++++

Perhaps because there was no hand-clapping.

Ben :clap

You usually use that clap so I thought for a moment that it was an imposter trying to fool me and saying it was you...............

 

[Muffled]

++++++++++++++++++++++++

About Paul being the founder of Christianity, I have given you the quotation of Acts
11:26. If you can't get it, it's because you just can't. That subject is closed and I rest my case.

Now, about the Nazarenes, I'll give you one more shot. When Ananias, the High Priest took Paul to Court presided by Felix, the Roman Governor, and taking along with him Tertullus, a Jewish Attorney, this accused Paul as a troublemaker who stirs up sedition among the Jews all over the world and with having connections as a rignleader of the Sect of the Nazarenes. That's in Acts 24:1-9. Please, read the quotation to understand.

The Sect of the Nazarenes was the Sect founded by the Apostles of Jesus whose chairmanship was taken by James, a brother of Jesus, according to a Jewish custom
of the time, that the closest relative of a religious founder was to be in charge even
as but a figure-head.

Ben

I don't think that use of a name can be equated with foundation. Organizations can have many names from their inception to present time. The First Baptist Church in town is now going by the name of Centerpoint. That probably hasn't changed the fact that it is a Baptist Church but only the percetion that they wish to convey of being more ecumnical. The Christian church characterized itself as the Followers of the Way in the beginning but that didn't stop outsiders from characterizing it differently. As far as Jesus is concerned, the Jerusalem branch of the church and the Antioch branch of the church belong to the one church that He founded.

 

[Ben Masada]

I don't think that use of a name can be equated with foundation. Organizations can have many names from their inception to present time. The First Baptist Church in town is now going by the name of Centerpoint. That probably hasn't changed the fact that it is a Baptist Church but only the percetion that they wish to convey of being more ecumnical. The Christian church characterized itself as the Followers of the Way in the beginning but that didn't stop outsiders from characterizing it differently. As far as Jesus is concerned, the Jerusalem branch of the church and the Antioch branch of the church belong to the one church that He founded.

++++++++++++++++++++

Yes, I agree with you. The Jerusalem branch as well as the Antioch branch belonged to the same Sect of the Nazarenes. James was the head of the Jerusalem branch, and Barnabas was nominated to head the Antioch branch. Instead of doing what he was told, he made the biggest mistake to go look for Paul in Tarsus and to invite him as the old friends that they were, to come over and help him with the work. After one year no more, the Antioch branch started being called a Christian church because Paul would preach that Jesus was Christ. (Acts 11:22-26) Clear now? Good!

Ben :clap

 

[Muffled]

++++++++++++++++++++

Yes, I agree with you. The Jerusalem branch as well as the Antioch branch belonged to the same Sect of the Nazarenes. James was the head of the Jerusalem branch, and Barnabas was nominated to head the Antioch branch. Instead of doing what he was told, he made the biggest mistake to go look for Paul in Tarsus and to invite him as the old friends that they were, to come over and help him with the work. After one year no more, the Antioch branch started being called a Christian church because Paul would preach that Jesus was Christ. (Acts 11:22-26) Clear now? Good!

Ben :clap

It is unlikely that Paul was starting a new work. As you say the work had already been started. The difference Paul made was in stirring up the synagogue in Antioch by winning converts. The remaining Jews in the synagogue opposed the new church and used the appelation Christian to distance themselves from it. In essence the name came from the spirit of anti-christ which is often equated with evil in the Bible.

 

[Ben Masada]

It is unlikely that Paul was starting a new work. As you say the work had already been started. The difference Paul made was in stirring up the synagogue in Antioch by winning converts. The remaining Jews in the synagogue opposed the new church and used the appelation Christian to distance themselves from it. In essence the name came from the spirit of anti-christ which is often equated with evil in the Bible.

++++++++++++++++++++++

First of all, the text in Acts 11:26 gives no hint that the name "Christians" was a derrogatory appelation by those who opposed to Paul. That was but the first of almosst all Nazarene Synagogues Paul would overturn into Christian churches.

Now, I would appreciate if you quoted some NT evidence to substantiate your assertion that the name came from the spirit of Antichrist.

Ben

 

[Muffled]

++++++++++++++++++++++

First of all, the text in Acts 11:26 gives no hint that the name "Christians" was a derrogatory appelation by those who opposed to Paul. That was but the first of almosst all Nazarene Synagogues Paul would overturn into Christian churches.

Now, I would appreciate if you quoted some NT evidence to substantiate your assertion that the name came from the spirit of Antichrist.

Ben

I have to apologize about this. My memory is somewhat lacking on this. Jesus reminded me that the synagogue that Paul preached in was in Pisidia-Antioch not the Antioch of the first church. So I have no evidence to support my thinking about the spirit of Anti-Christ.

I haven't seen any evidence that a synagogue was overthrown. The Antioch church had Jewish and Gentile members. I found no evidence that Paul did any evangelistic work there, only that he was among the teachers of the church.

The custom seemed to be to throw out members of the synagogue if they believed in Jesus. That leaves the synagogue intact but with fewer members.

 

[Ben Masada]

I have to apologize about this. My memory is somewhat lacking on this. Jesus reminded me that the synagogue that Paul preached in was in Pisidia-Antioch not the Antioch of the first church. So I have no evidence to support my thinking about the spirit of Anti-Christ.

I haven't seen any evidence that a synagogue was overthrown. The Antioch church had Jewish and Gentile members. I found no evidence that Paul did any evangelistic work there, only that he was among the teachers of the church.

The custom seemed to be to throw out members of the synagogue if they believed in Jesus. That leaves the synagogue intact but with fewer members.

+++++++++++++++++++++

The text says that Barnabas, the Nazarene sent to the Sinagogue of Antioch went to Tarsus after Paul and invited him over. After one whole year that Paul was there the
disciples started being called Christians. Why? Because Paul was preaching that Jesus was Christ. Now, if the Nazarenes, disciples of Jesus were there, what were they preaching about Jesus? They were not preaching about Jesus. They were preaching about his teachings, which were a more spiritual version of Judaism. (Acts 11:22-26)

Ben )(

 

[AK4]

Well Ben when it comes to preaching blaspemy, at least your not up there with Mr. Hagee and these other puppet ministers and preachers and pope who have teachings on hell.

BUT BLASPEMY IS BLASPHEMY NONTHELESS

 

[Ben Masada]

Well Ben when it comes to preaching blaspemy, at least your not up there with Mr. Hagee and these other puppet ministers and preachers and pope who have teachings on hell.

BUT BLASPEMY IS BLASPHEMY NONTHELESS

You are comparing apples with grapes, and you will get nowhere. How can a Jew be compared to a Christian? Isn't Mr. Hagee a Protestant Pastor? I do not preach blasphemy; I preach the Truth, because It was entrusted to the Jews only and to no other people on earth accroding to Psalm 147:19,20. Check it out!

Then the Psalmist compares the truth to light in the path of man. (Psalm 119:105)
And if Jesus said that the Jews are the light of the world, what do you want me to do, to hide myself under the bush? How could the world see the light then? Ponder!

Ben

 

[AK4]

You are comparing apples with grapes, and you will get nowhere. How can a Jew be compared to a Christian? Isn't Mr. Hagee a Protestant Pastor? I do not preach blasphemy; I preach the Truth, because It was entrusted to the Jews only and to no other people on earth accroding to Psalm 147:19,20. Check it out!

Then the Psalmist compares the truth to light in the path of man. (Psalm 119:105)
And if Jesus said that the Jews are the light of the world, what do you want me to do, to hide myself under the bush? How could the world see the light then? Ponder!

Ben

So the Truth has only been given to the Jews where God throughout the whole OT says they dont know it and dont believe it. Even a donkey has better eyes to see Truth than the Jews.

Nu 22:28 - Then the Lord opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
Nu 22:29 - Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now."
You say to see things metaphorically but you cant even do that let alone spiritually. The suffering servant is Jesus metaphorically or spiritually Isreal and Judah. Its not the whole people of Jewish decent. He is the Light. And those who follow His teachings are the His disciples and also a light to the world

Joh 8:31 -To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
Now do you follow His teachings--obviously not and you cant because to you Hes just a "dead man".

Now oh proud Jew, if you guys are given the Truth to give to us then why do we have to carry yall back to God.

Isa 49:22 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: "See, I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.

 

[Ben Masada]

So the Truth has only been given to the Jews where God throughout the whole OT says they dont know it and dont believe it. Even a donkey has better eyes to see Truth than the Jews.

+++Ben: - It does not matter what you say. What I told you was not from the top of my head. I put the quotations down for you to check.

Nu 22:28 - Then the Lord opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
Nu 22:29 - Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now."

+++Ben: - You are so unphilosophical as to even believe that a donkew can literally speak. Poor Gentiles!

You say to see things metaphorically but you cant even do that let alone spiritually. The suffering servant is Jesus metaphorically or spiritually Isreal and Judah. Its not the whole people of Jewish decent. He is the Light. And those who follow His teachings are the His disciples and also a light to the world

+++Ben: - Prove to me in Isaiah that Jesus is the Suffering Servant without assumption. If you can do that I'll pledge my word that I'll accept him as my Savior. If you can't, stop assuming and open your heart to the Truth. If I can give you Isaiah
mentioning the Suffering Servant by name, it's only fair to demand that you do the same with Jesus. Regarding being the light to the world, I gave you Jesus himself telling the Jews that they are the ones in Matthew 5:14. Has your faith so blinded you that you can't believe even what you read with your own eyes? That's amazing!

Joh 8:31 -To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

+++Ben: - He also said to the Jews who had believed in him that they were children of the Devil. How do you harmonize the discrepancy? (John 8:31,44) Have mercy on yourself!

Now do you follow His teachings--obviously not and you cant because to you Hes just a "dead man".

+++Ben: - Yes, I do. Check Matthew 5:17-19. Don't forget verse 19. His teachings were about the Law and the Prophets, Judaism in a word. Also the disciples of his Apostles were staunch observers of the Law. Check Acts 21:20.

Now oh proud Jew, if you guys are given the Truth to give to us then why do we have to carry yall back to God.

+++Ben: - What you carry and exchange among yourselves is a distorted truth and not the one that was entrusted to Israel only, according to Psalm 147:19,20.

Isa 49:22 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: "See, I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.

+++Ben: - It means that when Israel left Egypt, the Egyptians gave them of their wealth so that they would leave. It means that when Cyrus proclaimed the return of the Jews from the exile in Babylon, he financed the Jews even to rebuild the Temple. It means what has been happening since 1948. Many of the nations share with us of their wealth so that we can have our homeland back. That's what it means "to bring ours sons and daughters back home in their arms and shoulders. Can't you understand allegories?

My comments are between the paragraphs of yours above.

Ben:shout

 

[Poisonshady313]

I suppose the jews see jesus as the messiah be joseph and the messiah to come (their messiah) as messiah be david?

:no:

Jews don't see Jesus as any sort of messiah.


The messiah ben joseph is supposed to be killed in the war of gog and magog, which immediately precedes the coming of the messiah ben david. Neither of these people have come yet.

 

[Ben Masada]

:no:

Jews don't see Jesus as any sort of messiah.


The messiah ben joseph is supposed to be killed in the war of gog and magog, which immediately precedes the coming of the messiah ben david. Neither of these people have come yet.

Any reference to Jesus as Messiah in the Tanach is based on assumptions.
And assumptions butter no bread. Assumptions are not based in knowledge but in
faith. Since where faith begins, knowledge ends, "My people perish for lack of
knowledge." (Hosea 4:6)

Messiah ben Joseph no longer exist. He was formed by the Ten Tribes of Israel
who were sacrificed on behalf of Messiah ben David who at that time was Judah,
which is today known by "The House of Jacob called by the name of the new Israel
from the stock of Judah." The Jewish People. (Isa. 48:1)

Ben :clap

 

[herushura]

The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs = Sun Worship, Dark v Light allagory.

 

[herushura]

The Suffering Servent is the Suffering Sun afer being stung by Scorpios needle and Saggitarius Archers paralled to jesus, This is november/December time. when dark overpowers light. and the day are getting shorter = sun is suffering/servent

 

[Ben Masada]

The Suffering Servent is the Suffering Sun afer being stung by Scorpios needle and Saggitarius Archers paralled to jesus, This is november/December time. when dark overpowers light. and the day are getting shorter = sun is suffering/servent

I guess every religion has a Suffering Servant of its own.

Ben

 

[AK4]

My comments are between the paragraphs of yours above.

Ben:shout

See what you fail to realise Ben is that the whole Word of God, OT and NT, is a parable. This Jewish nationality and superiority your proclaiming is an analogy/parable of those who God, and God alone, will choose to bring to salvation in this age, who He has and will entrust with His Word. You do not see spiritually, you see metaphorically --in other words carnal. Only the prophets of the OT actually recieved the Spirit of God and not the physical nation of the Jews. Israel and Judah represented the physical part of Gods plan--which shall and did perish. Those that God will save in this age will the spiritual Israel which shall never perish. Its a hard pill to swallow but open wide . Call it replacement theology or whatever it is what the Word of God states and you cant see it spiritually because of your pride. God is spirit

Joh 4:24 -God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Therefore since God is spirit and you/the jewish nation dont see spiritually, niether do you know or see the true God.

All the verses you TRY to quote is actually talking about them who God IS choosing SINCE CHRIST DEATH AND UNTIL HE RETURNS. Its not the just the peolple of the jewish heritage. Its both gentile and some jews who ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN HIS SON that God considers to be the real jews--the descendants of Abraham.

And i will just leave it at that for right now:beach:

 

[Ben Masada]

See what you fail to realise Ben is that the whole Word of God, OT and NT, is a parable. This Jewish nationality and superiority your proclaiming is an analogy/parable of those who God, and God alone, will choose to bring to salvation in this age, who He has and will entrust with His Word. You do not see spiritually, you see metaphorically --in other words carnal. Only the prophets of the OT actually recieved the Spirit of God and not the physical nation of the Jews. Israel and Judah represented the physical part of Gods plan--which shall and did perish. Those that God will save in this age will the spiritual Israel which shall never perish. Its a hard pill to swallow but open wide . Call it replacement theology or whatever it is what the Word of God states and you cant see it spiritually because of your pride. God is spirit

Joh 4:24 -God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Therefore since God is spirit and you/the jewish nation dont see spiritually, niether do you know or see the true God.

All the verses you TRY to quote is actually talking about them who God IS choosing SINCE CHRIST DEATH AND UNTIL HE RETURNS. Its not the just the peolple of the jewish heritage. Its both gentile and some jews who ACTUALLY BELIEVE IN HIS SON that God considers to be the real jews--the descendants of Abraham.

And i will just leave it at that for right now:beach:

AK4, you rather amuse me if you think I'll be affected by what you say. I think you have forgotten whom you are having this conversation with. I am Jewish AK4, and not a Christian of another denomination. You remind me of Arabs here in Israel, who, opposite to you, want to guarantee a place in Heaven by killing a Jew. You
give me the impression that you want to guarantee a place in Heaven by, according
to the Christian terminology, saving this Jew.

About John 4:24, if you focus on how Jesus spoke, he said that the Gentiles don't know whom they worship, and that includes you. We, (Jews) said Jesus, know whom
we worship. Because we (Jews) said Jesus, worship in spirit and truth. Why? Because salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22) Therefore, we work on our salvation by saving others. You work on your salvation by letting yourselves be salved.

AK4, your message is based on assumptions. All plagiarized from Paul and his cronies.

Ben