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The suffering servant of isaiah 53

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
If a person don't look human, would you say it is disfigurement or deformity?

Maybe after being flogged 39 times and crucified. But I still think it is an analogy about admiration and not physical aesthetics.

Ok, which part are you referring to?

The feeding of thousands? Then yes. Did Jesus hid his face or head because of his disfigurement? He left them because they were crowding him after he fed them.

So why do you want me to seek John 6?

Why did people reject Jesus' words? I'll give you a clue, He talks about eating bread, but it's not really his flesh he is talking about. I'll give you another clue...

John 1:1-5 (NIV)
The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.



It still doesn't make his disciples "descendants" in any sense. If I call you brother, it doesn't mean I am uncle to any children you may have. It is only symbolic.


and


Again, you're still forgetting the other chapters that referred to Israel, and how this chapter to relate to others. So your reference to Matthew is meaningless and irrelevant to Isaiah's passages.


Well, apparently Jesus disagrees with you.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Jeremy Mason said:
John 1:1-5 (NIV)
The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Here is where I see John's verses (1:1-5) is to be taken as a parable than a literal thing. Symbolic, but not real.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Story, uses to teach. It is fictional, but laden with meanings and symbols, but nevertheless a parable is still a fictional story.

Tolkein wrote The Lord of the Rings, which has meaning and symbols, and yet there some basis of truth in it, as all stories are, but the fact of matter they are still fictional. Or do you truly believe in goblins, elves and dwarves?
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I wasn't sure which parable do you mean, so I gave you a definition.

As to John 1, it simply saying that the light has flesh, the word has flesh, yada, yada. It is purely symbolics. For a Christian, he would naturally interpret that Jesus existed before a physical birth, and that Jesus was a creator of this "light", found in Genesis 1:3.

I know the drill of what the Word represent to a Christian, but nevertheless, it has all the hallmark of parable.

What do you expect me to do? Believe these verses, literally. Sorry, but that's your department and not mine. You're the one who believe Word=Jesus.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
We went from

Originally Posted by gnostic
The feeding of thousands? Then yes. Did Jesus hid his face or head because of his disfigurement? He left them because they were crowding him after he fed them.

to

As to John 1, it simply saying that the light has flesh, the word has flesh, yada, yada. It is purely symbolics. For a Christian, he would naturally interpret that Jesus existed before a physical birth, and that Jesus was a creator of this "light", found in Genesis 1:3.

Jesus gave the crowd a reality check because they did not come for truth, not because they were crowding him. Jesus' word=truth.

I've accepted Jesus' 2 Rules. The situation is now in your hands.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
We went from



to



Jesus gave the crowd a reality check because they did not come for truth, not because they were crowding him. Jesus' word=truth.

I've accepted Jesus' 2 Rules. The situation is now in your hands.


"Jesus' word=truth!" That's not what he said. Read John 17:17. He said that the Truth is the Word of God. And the Psalmist said that the Word of God is Light.
Read Psalm 119:105. Then Jesus said that Light is the Jewish People. Read Matthew
5:14. Then, back to the Psalmist, he said that the Word of God was entrusted to Israel only and to no other People on earth. Read Psalm 147:19,20. What's the conclusion to all this? That Israel, the Jewish People=Word of God=Truth=Light.

Ben :clap
 

gnostic

The Lost One
jeremy mason said:
Jesus gave the crowd a reality check because they did not come for truth, not because they were crowding him. Jesus' word=truth.

I've accepted Jesus' 2 Rules. The situation is now in your hands.

John is simply using the word to describe Jesus, comparing him with word, light, truth and grace.

It is not only a parable; this chapter (John 1), make use of simile.

I am quite sure, I don't have to tell you what a "simile", do I?

I can compare my former girlfriend as sunshine or a rose, but it doesn't mean she is actually a sun rays or a flower.

Homer had used similes frequently comparing one warrior or another, to fire, wind, sea, lion, boar, etc.

That you would take it literally about Jesus being the "Word", showed that you can pick and choose what you like to take literally.

Do you take the story of the Creation, Adam or the Flood literally?

Eg. the world being created in 6 days. Adam was the first man. The Flood covered the entire earth, including the highest mountains.

Are these parables or allegory?

If you don't take these literally, then why do you take John's words literally in chapter 1?

Jesus did write those words. They belonged to John's and what he thought Jesus was like. And he done so by comparing his messiah with something abstract. Is Jesus really just a word, light or truth? Or is he flesh and blood? Or spirit?
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
"Jesus' word=truth!" That's not what he said. Read John 17:17. He said that the Truth is the Word of God. And the Psalmist said that the Word of God is Light.
Read Psalm 119:105. Then Jesus said that Light is the Jewish People. Read Matthew
5:14. Then, back to the Psalmist, he said that the Word of God was entrusted to Israel only and to no other People on earth. Read Psalm 147:19,20. What's the conclusion to all this? That Israel, the Jewish People=Word of God=Truth=Light.

Ben :clap

Have you ever considered the fact that god can put out a light? Can pluck up a tree? Can break off a branch?

Just how are the jews planning on saving us? How do they intend to be the messiah? How then are they going to reconcile us to god? Why would god want the jews to reconcile himself to the gentiles when he is married to her?

The first time an isrealite married a non-isrealite (gentile) you should have seen it coming. It was a type of....a prediction, a warning of what god will do when his own kind rejects him. Marry another.

When boas for example married Ruth...he married a pagan. And a few generations later came david. You cannot claim exlusivity, your history is loaded with various gentile DNA.

heneni
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
About the bible being full of stories.....if we all had to be wiped out, and god created another man called adam somewhere on this earth....im sure that many years later, there will be someone writing of the accounts of a civilization who had strange technology....who occupied the whole world, and who destroyed themselves...all as a warning for the next worlds people and it would be stories to learn from.

Our own history could be in the bible of the next world.

heneni
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
About the bible being full of stories.....if we all had to be wiped out, and god created another man called adam somewhere on this earth....im sure that many years later, there will be someone writing of the accounts of a civilization who had strange technology....who occupied the whole world, and who destroyed themselves...all as a warning for the next worlds people and it would be stories to learn from.

Our own history could be in the bible of the next world.

heneni


Wow Heneni! This theme of yours would make for a fascinating movie in
supernatural Science fiction. I can feel this subject we have been discussing
has exerted a strong impression on you. However, there is no possibility for
your intuitive suggestion ever to become possible because: "Thus says the Lord,
which gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of
the stars for a light by night. If those ordinances depart from before Me, says
the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me
forever. If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched
out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel." That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37.

It means that If Israel is erradicated from the face of the Earth, there will be no Earth
to exist, or Moon, or the stars. It means that the world exists on the account that Israel
is in existence. I know this idea is extremely hard to find shelter in the mind of a non-Jew.
But what can I do if I can't keep my mouth shut? I shared my finds with two Rabbis and they
told me to keep my mouth shut if I don't intend to make life harder for Jews to live.
I immediately understood that they had a pretty good idea of what I was talking about.


Ben :confused:
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
Wow Heneni! This theme of yours would make for a fascinating movie in
supernatural Science fiction. I can feel this subject we have been discussing
has exerted a strong impression on you. However, there is no possibility for
your intuitive suggestion ever to become possible because: "Thus says the Lord,
which gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of
the stars for a light by night. If those ordinances depart from before Me, says
the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me
forever. If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched
out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel." That's in Jeremiah 31:35-37.

It means that If Israel is erradicated from the face of the Earth, there will be no Earth
to exist, or Moon, or the stars. It means that the world exists on the account that Israel
is in existence. I know this idea is extremely hard to find shelter in the mind of a non-Jew.
But what can I do if I can't keep my mouth shut? I shared my finds with two Rabbis and they
told me to keep my mouth shut if I don't intend to make life harder for Jews to live.
I immediately understood that they had a pretty good idea of what I was talking about.


Ben :confused:

Now ben you dismiss the MOST NT but what does this say--

EX 25:31 "Make a lampstand of pure gold and hammer it out, base and shaft; its flowerlike cups, buds and blossoms shall be of one piece with it. 32 Six branches are to extend from the sides of the lampstand--three on one side and three on the other. 33 Three cups shaped like almond flowers with buds and blossoms are to be on one branch, three on the next branch, and the same for all six branches extending from the lampstand. 34 And on the lampstand there are to be four cups shaped like almond flowers with buds and blossoms. 35 One bud shall be under the first pair of branches extending from the lampstand, a second bud under the second pair, and a third bud under the third pair--six branches in all. 36 The buds and branches shall all be of one piece with the lampstand, hammered out of pure gold. 37 "Then make its seven lamps and set them up on it so that they light the space in front of it. 38 Its wick trimmers and trays are to be of pure gold. 39 A talent of pure gold is to be used for the lampstand and all these accessories. 40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.

THE LAMP/LIGHT THAT YOU MOSTLY REJECT ALSO HAS 3 BRANCHES BUSTED OFF- 9 PIECES ON EACH OF THE 6 BRANCHES- 3 X 9=27
THE NUMBER OF BOOKS IN THE "nt" SO HOW CAN YOU "JEWS" BE THE LIGHT THAT IS IN SCRIPTURE WHEN YOU REJECT SOME OF IT
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Now ben you dismiss the MOST NT but what does this say--

EX 25:31 "Make a lampstand of pure gold and hammer it out, base and shaft; its flowerlike cups, buds and blossoms shall be of one piece with it. 32 Six branches are to extend from the sides of the lampstand--three on one side and three on the other. 33 Three cups shaped like almond flowers with buds and blossoms are to be on one branch, three on the next branch, and the same for all six branches extending from the lampstand. 34 And on the lampstand there are to be four cups shaped like almond flowers with buds and blossoms. 35 One bud shall be under the first pair of branches extending from the lampstand, a second bud under the second pair, and a third bud under the third pair--six branches in all. 36 The buds and branches shall all be of one piece with the lampstand, hammered out of pure gold. 37 "Then make its seven lamps and set them up on it so that they light the space in front of it. 38 Its wick trimmers and trays are to be of pure gold. 39 A talent of pure gold is to be used for the lampstand and all these accessories. 40 See that you make them according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.

THE LAMP/LIGHT THAT YOU MOSTLY REJECT ALSO HAS 3 BRANCHES BUSTED OFF- 9 PIECES ON EACH OF THE 6 BRANCHES- 3 X 9=27
THE NUMBER OF BOOKS IN THE "nt" SO HOW CAN YOU "JEWS" BE THE LIGHT THAT IS IN SCRIPTURE WHEN YOU REJECT SOME OF IT


Let's assume we are two people answering your questions: Myself and Jesus, who was also a Jew. Let's assume that I answered the previous question and I ask Jesus
to answer yours. That's right. You should put this question of yours to Jesus and not to me. His answer is in Matthew 5:14, when he said that the Jews are the light of the world. And I am sure it dispenses with any further comment or disagreement. Unless you don't believe everything he said.

Ben :D
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
Let's assume we are two people answering your questions: Myself and Jesus, who was also a Jew. Let's assume that I answered the previous question and I ask Jesus
to answer yours. That's right. You should put this question of yours to Jesus and not to me. His answer is in Matthew 5:14, when he said that the Jews are the light of the world. And I am sure it dispenses with any further comment or disagreement. Unless you don't believe everything he said.

Ben :D

What???? This just you dodging The Truth that is brought before you again. "Let's assume that I answered the previous question"-- NO LETS NOT. Answer the question. You are supposed to be saving us so i need to know so you can save me. (LOL) Stop ducking and dodging. Answer.

Now how can I ask Jesus if He is rejecting some of the scripture when He says and even ANSWERS this question

Mt 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Should i hold my breath for a direct answer or prepare myself for another type of replacement theology or something
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
What???? This just you dodging The Truth that is brought before you again. "Let's assume that I answered the previous question"-- NO LETS NOT. Answer the question. You are supposed to be saving us so i need to know so you can save me. (LOL) Stop ducking and dodging. Answer.

Now how can I ask Jesus if He is rejecting some of the scripture when He says and even ANSWERS this question

Mt 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Should i hold my breath for a direct answer or prepare myself for another type of replacement theology or something


Let me start this one from the end of yours. Matthew 5:17... Where is the rest? Christians never fail when it comes to Matthew 5:17-19. They never quote the whole thing.
Do you know why? Because they dodge the responsibility that we are supposed to do as Jesus did: To obey the Law and the Prophets to the letter. Half answers can be more dangerous than to reject the Law from ignorance.


Regarding your first paragraph, I don't have a different answer from that of Jesus. If you still insist with me to answer, I am going to give you the same response that Jesus has given you in Matthew 5:14.


Why do you get so upset and hostile? Do you think it's easy to persuade a Jew to leave the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism for the Faith of Paul which is Christianity?
If you didn't know, we Jews have a mind of our own. So, take it easy and be patient If the Truth is with the faith of Paul, I might eventually come to it.
If the Truth is with the faith of Jesus, I hope you won't let pride speak louder than commonsense to come to it. (Zech. 8:23)

Ben :clap
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
Let me start this one from the end of yours. Matthew 5:17... Where is the rest? Christians never fail when it comes to Matthew 5:17-19. They never quote the whole thing.
Do you know why? Because they dodge the responsibility that we are supposed to do as Jesus did: To obey the Law and the Prophets to the letter. Half answers can be more dangerous than to reject the Law from ignorance.

Wow you did it again-- yes i agree with you about Matt 5:17-19 that christains throw that out. You are not to throw it out, but what you have mistaken is that you are to follow it in spirit and truth, it should be in your heart of flesh and not your written in "stone". You are to follow all the commandments of Jesus--since He is the God of all scripture--OT and NT, but you are to do this in spirit and truth.


Regarding your first paragraph, I don't have a different answer from that of Jesus. If you still insist with me to answer, I am going to give you the same response that Jesus has given you in Matthew 5:14.

Okay maybe you just didnt get the question and i will give you the benefit of the doubt this time--God gave the discription of how his Word will be put in scrolls and He describes it in Duet 25 66 scrolls. now without the 27 that make up the NT them His Word would be incomplete. Now with this small little bit of knowledge i am giving you I will ask the question again---How is it you can reject 80% of the NT? And actuall Jesus couldnt answer that directly because uhhhh He was the beginning of it.


Why do you get so upset and hostile? Do you think it's easy to persuade a Jew to leave the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism for the Faith of Paul which is Christianity?

I am not upset, believe me and i am not trying to persuade you at all (remember what i posted before). I only expose those who contradict (Titus 1:9) and their is nothing Paul was inspired from God to write that contradicts anything in all the other books/scrolls of the entire bible. Paul had the faith of Jesus. Did Jesus practise Judaism? Give me a break Did John the Baptist practise his faith the way the pharisees did? The Jews lacked faith. They worshipped not in spirit, but only to the letter in which they perverted even more for their own personal gains. (Jer 8:8)


If you didn't know, we Jews have a mind of our own. So, take it easy and be patient If the Truth is with the faith of Paul, I might eventually come to it.
If the Truth is with the faith of Jesus, I hope you won't let pride speak louder than commonsense to come to it. (Zech. 8:23)

Ben :clap

Oh brother-- and i quote you "I hope you won't let pride speak louder than commonsense to come to it. (Zech. 8:23)" Just answer the question and stop running from it:run:
After all, with what you believe, you have more to lose than I.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
John is simply using the word to describe Jesus, comparing him with word, light, truth and grace.

It is not only a parable; this chapter (John 1), make use of simile.

I am quite sure, I don't have to tell you what a "simile", do I?

I can compare my former girlfriend as sunshine or a rose, but it doesn't mean she is actually a sun rays or a flower.

Homer had used similes frequently comparing one warrior or another, to fire, wind, sea, lion, boar, etc.

That you would take it literally about Jesus being the "Word", showed that you can pick and choose what you like to take literally.

I said Jesus' Word= Truth, not that Jesus was physical a word. Talk about twisting words. :biglaugh:

Do you take the story of the Creation, Adam or the Flood literally?

Eg. the world being created in 6 days. Adam was the first man. The Flood covered the entire earth, including the highest mountains.

Are these parables or allegory?

If you don't take these literally, then why do you take John's words literally in chapter 1?

and

Jesus did write those words. They belonged to John's and what he thought Jesus was like. And he done so by comparing his messiah with something abstract. Is Jesus really just a word, light or truth? Or is he flesh and blood? Or spirit?

Certain parts of the Bible use different writing styles. Some are to be symbolic and others not. Yes, Jesus was a man, but he was/is a light via His Father's Word to those who want to accept truth.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Wow you did it again-- yes i agree with you about Matt 5:17-19 that christains throw that out. You are not to throw it out, but what you have mistaken is that you are to follow it in spirit and truth, it should be in your heart of flesh and not your written in "stone". You are to follow all the commandments of Jesus--since He is the God of all scripture--OT and NT, but you are to do this in spirit and truth.

+++Ben: - What's the fifference between following in spirit and following according to the letter only as long as the Law is obeyed? What difference does it make if the
Law is written in stone or in our hearts so long it is obeyed? Stop with this Pauline rhetoric and just fulfill the requirements of the Law and you will be all right.
Jesus gave no commandments. He rather confirmed what had been given in the Sinaitic Covenant. Now, for your last statement, you are going to excuse me
if I must be blatant here, but you are teaching idolatry and to Jewish ears it doesn't go well.

Okay maybe you just didnt get the question and i will give you the benefit of the doubt this time--God gave the discription of how his Word will be put in scrolls and He describes it in Duet 25 66 scrolls. now without the 27 that make up the NT them His Word would be incomplete. Now with this small little bit of knowledge i am giving you I will ask the question again---How is it you can reject 80% of the NT? And actuall Jesus couldnt answer that directly because uhhhh He was the beginning of it.

+++Ben: - I reject 80 percent of the NT because they are interpolations by the Gentiles who wrote the NT. People who either had no knowledge of Judaism
or wrote only to satisfy the Christology of Paul. There was a time when I tried to consider everything as you guys do, and I couldn't handle the contradictions.
I even ended up by publishing a book about the contradictions of the NT through Vantage Press in New York.

I am not upset, believe me and i am not trying to persuade you at all (remember what i posted before). I only expose those who contradict (Titus 1:9) and their is nothing Paul was inspired from God to write that contradicts anything in all the other books/scrolls of the entire bible. Paul had the faith of Jesus. Did Jesus practise Judaism? Give me a break Did John the Baptist practise his faith the way the pharisees did? The Jews lacked faith. They worshipped not in spirit, but only to the letter in which they perverted even more for their own personal gains. (Jer 8:8)

+++Ben: - If you are not trying to persuade me into becoming a Christian, what are you trying to do, considering the possibility that you could become a Jew?
Don't take my question lying down because that's what you get with the cop-out that your purpose is not to convert me. Why deny? At least I am more honest
than you when I don't deny my purpose which is to convert you into the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism. Yes, Jesus practised Judaism, but Paul did not.
Read Acts 21:20 and wonder why the converts of the Nazarenes were staunch defenders of the Law. And when you say that the Jews did not worship in spirit,
you make of Jesus a liar, because he himself said that we worship is spirit and in truth, and Gentiles worship what they do not know. Read John 4:22.


Oh brother-- and i quote you "I hope you won't let pride speak louder than commonsense to come to it. (Zech. 8:23)" Just answer the question and stop running from it. After all, with what you believe, you have more to lose than I.

+++Ben: - What do I have to lose more than you, a conditional faith? That's what you guys have: Conditional faith. Paul himself said that if there is no resurrection
let's eat and drink for tomorrow we die. (I Cor. 15:32) That's faith with an eye in rewards. We Jews don't even believe in Hell, Heaven or resurrection; or Satan for
that matter to make us afraid and abide by the Law. We do it because it's a Jewish thing to do. Not with the intent in postmortem rewards. Thanks but no, thanks.
Judaism is much more real.

+++Ben: - My comments follow yours in between.

Ben :eek:
 
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