The suffering servant of isaiah 53

[Jayhawker Soule]

AK4, you rather amuse me if you think I'll be affected by what you say.

I don't believe anyone thinks that of you.

 

[Ben Masada]

I don't believe anyone thinks that of you.

Why? Are you over or underestimating me?
It's true that the road to my heart is through my mind; but if it makes sense
to me, I won't let pride speak louder than commonsense. The point is that I
do have a mind of my own.

Ben

 

[AK4]

I don't believe anyone thinks that of you.

Thanks Jayhawker

 

[Muffled]

+++++++++++++++++++++

The text says that Barnabas, the Nazarene sent to the Sinagogue of Antioch went to Tarsus after Paul and invited him over. After one whole year that Paul was there the
disciples started being called Christians. Why? Because Paul was preaching that Jesus was Christ. Now, if the Nazarenes, disciples of Jesus were there, what were they preaching about Jesus? They were not preaching about Jesus. They were preaching about his teachings, which were a more spiritual version of Judaism. (Acts 11:22-26)

Ben )(

I don't know the Greek but my translation says church not synagogue.

Barnabus was sent from Jerusalem by the apostles who believed that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact it is the statement by Peter that Jesus is the Messiah that Jesus says is the foundation stone of the church.

There is no evidence of what Barnabus or Paul taught.

If the Jews in Jerusalem called them the sect of the Nazarenes and Antioch called them Christians, there is still no implication that those people believed what Christians taught. Did the Jews actually believe that The Nazarenes were just another Jewish group like the Pharisees and Sadducees? They appeared to know that Paul was in the company of Gentiles. Did the Antiochan Jews actually think that Jesus could be the Messiah or werre they just saying that Christians believed that?

This is an interesting view but hardly one that deserves merit. The truth is that a person does not need Christianity or Jewish law to follow Jesus. When Jesus speaks to the Samaritan woman, he doesn't tell her that she has to convert to Judaism (as practiced by Israelites because technically Samaritans tried to incorporate Jewish beliefs by inquiring of Jews as to what that might be) but tells her this:

John 4:22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.

The implication is that it is no longer Jews that make up true worshipers but anyone who worships in spirit and truth. Of course Jesus says that He is The Truth and that he will send the Spirit.

 

[Ben Masada]

I don't know the Greek but my translation says church not synagogue.

+++Ben: - Of course! What did you expect? That's the NT we are dealing with. And the writer of Acts was a Greek Gentile.


Barnabus was sent from Jerusalem by the apostles who believed that Jesus is the Messiah. In fact it is the statement by Peter that Jesus is the Messiah that Jesus says is the foundation stone of the church.

+++Ben: - Wrong again. Peter was a Nazarene. If he ever wrote anything which I very much doubt it, none of the writings of the Nazarenes was approved into the canon of the NT in the Fourth Century. Why? Because they were too controversial vis-a-vis the writings of Paul and his cronies.


There is no evidence of what Barnabus or Paul taught.

+++Ben: - Sorry my friend, but sometimes I think about resting my case about you, but moved by the responsibility that I consider myself "my brother's keeper," I go on. How can you say that there is no evidence of what Barnabas or Paul taught? Read the text again. I am talking about Acts 11:26. It says in there that after a year that Paul taught, the disciples were called Christians. Why? Obviously because Paul was teaching that Jesus was Christ. And before, why were they not called Christians? Because the Nazarenes had never taught them that Jesus was Christ. How can this be so hard? How can faith blind so much?


If the Jews in Jerusalem called them the sect of the Nazarenes and Antioch called them Christians, there is still no implication that those people believed what Christians taught. Did the Jews actually believe that The Nazarenes were just another Jewish group like the Pharisees and Sadducees? They appeared to know that Paul was in the company of Gentiles. Did the Antiochan Jews actually think that Jesus could be the Messiah or werre they just saying that Christians believed that?

+++Ben: - In Antioch they started being called Christians after Paul and because of Paul. Read the text again without the scales of faith in your eyes. Yes, the regular Jews did believe that the Nazarenes were just another Jewish group like the Pharisees and Sadducees. If they didn't, Pharisees would never join them. Some did because the teachings of the Nazarenes were but a more spiritual version of Jusdaism, The believers would become staunch zealous of the Law. Read Acts 21:20. Paul was never in the company of Gentiles but for once or twice no more. His work was mainly in the Synagogues of the Nazarenes
fishing up the proselytes of the Nazarenes. He was never able to start a church from scratch. The Antiochians started thinking that Jesus was the Messiah only
after Paul spent that year with them. Never before that time.


This is an interesting view but hardly one that deserves merit. The truth is that a person does not need Christianity or Jewish law to follow Jesus. When Jesus speaks to the Samaritan woman, he doesn't tell her that she has to convert to Judaism (as practiced by Israelites because technically Samaritans tried to incorporate Jewish beliefs by inquiring of Jews as to what that might be) but tells her this:

+++Ben: - Right! I agree with you in the above.


John 4:22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

+++Ben: - Ye (Gentiles Samaritans) worship... We (Jews) worship... for salvation is from the Jews (the People).

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be worshippers.
The implication is that it is no longer Jews that make up true worshipers but anyone who worships in spirit and truth. Of course Jesus says that He is The Truth and that he will send the Spirit.

+++Ben: - No, that's not the implication. The implication is that the Jews don't
think of God as something visible, or with form, or in the shape of man. The
Jewish idea of God is purely spiritual. That's why we worship God in spirit. When Jesus said that "the hour has come and is," he meant for the non-Jew to start worshipping God like the Jews. Isn't that very simple? It has nothing to do
with sending the Spirit. This idea is Pauline rhetoric.

My comments come in between yours above.

Ben:clap

 

[gnostic]

I still don't understand what this topic is all about.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I still don't understand what this topic is all about.

Have you read Isaiah 53?

 

[gnostic]

Of course.

It speaks of servant hideously deformed.

It speak of how people ignored him and he suffered. How his suffering should have been of others. And how God will forgive the people because of this servant.

I can see how this may relate to possibly Jesus.

However, Jesus was never born deformed. Thousands have followed him in his life, unlike this servant. Also it speak of him living long life, which Jesus didn't. And it also speak of the servant's descendants, but Jesus had none.....unless you believe the Da Vinci's Code.

But if you read in context with the other chapters, surrounding Isaiah 53, it speak of Israel and Jerusalem. Jesus wasn't just about Jerusalem or Israel, for they (Israel and Jerusalem) are irrelevant in the gospels.

If the servant is about the Messiah who would save Israel, then it is certainly not Jesus.

And I still don't know what this topic is all about.

 

[Ben Masada]

Have you read Isaiah 53?

This topic, "The Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53" is about the Messiah, which Christians claim Isaiah 53 as the key chapter in the Bible to be a prophecy that points to Jesus, but absolutely based on assumptions because you have to know the NT in order to assume.

On the other hand, there is a growing faction in Judaism that sides with Isaiah, the Prophet who wrote that chapter, that Isaiah 53 is pointing to Israel, the Jewish People as the Messiah, not only for the description of the History of the Jewish People, but also that the Prophet mentions the Messiah by name.

The total consensus among Christians and Jews is that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. Since Isaiah himself calls that Servant by the name Israel,
it becomes obvious syllogistically that Israel, the Jewish People in general is the Messiah. You can check Isaiah 41:89; 44:1,2,21; 45:4.

Ben :shout

 

[AK4]

AK4, you rather amuse me if you think I'll be affected by what you say. I think you have forgotten whom you are having this conversation with. I am Jewish AK4, and not a Christian of another denomination. You remind me of Arabs here in Israel, who, opposite to you, want to guarantee a place in Heaven by killing a Jew. You
give me the impression that you want to guarantee a place in Heaven by, according
to the Christian terminology, saving this Jew.

See this is where you have me all wrong. I dont go by the "traditional christainity" (look under my name --do you see christain there?)view of trying to save anyone because like i showed you before I CANT SAVE ANYONE AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE ON THIS EARTH. YOU CANT WIN SOULS FOR JESUS AND YOU CANT SAVE SOMEONE ELSE TO SAVE YOU. Thats ridiculous and unscriptural!! There only one way someone can "come" to God--

Joh 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and you only able to come to Jesus by faith and you dont get that on your own--

Eph 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I think you have forgotten whom you are having this conversation with. I am Jewish

About John 4:24, if you focus on how Jesus spoke, he said that the Gentiles don't know whom they worship, and that includes you. We, (Jews) said Jesus, know whom
we worship. Because we (Jews) said Jesus, worship in spirit and truth. Why? Because salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22) Therefore, we work on our salvation by saving others. You work on your salvation by letting yourselves be salved.

AK4, your message is based on assumptions. All plagiarized from Paul and his cronies.

Ben

Now your pride is nothing but sin. You think because you have Jewish heritage you are better than anyone else. What does God have to say about this pride of the Jews--

Le 26:19 -And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
Job 35:12 -There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men.
Job 41:15 - His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
Ps 59:12 -For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak.
Zep 3:11 -In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.

Now watch you use replacement theology to get you out of this one.

Since when has the Jews known whom to worship. Is God constantly lying in the OT about how much of an adultress you guys are and yall worshipping idols? If gentiles dont know who to worship and yall do and yall are "supposed" to show us--then the gentiles are doomed.

Why are yall called an adultress? Its because of what or who or how many different gods yall worshipped. GIVE ME A BREAK


Am 2:4 - This is what the Lord says: "For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because they have rejected the law of the Lord and have not kept his decrees, because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed,
Look at what Stephen was saying when he recounted yall history (Acts 7).

Acts 7:52 Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him-- 53 you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

Righteous ONE. Not righteous many. Not righteous nation/people/collective messiah. ONE. Isa 53 is about Jesus not the Jews as a whole. Replacement theology? Boy if this isnt it i dont know what is.

PS At least christians replacement theology isnt trying to replace themselves over the Messiah like you guys are:foot::banghead3:banghead3:ko:

 

[Ben Masada]

See this is where you have me all wrong. I dont go by the "traditional christainity" (look under my name --do you see christain there?)view of trying to save anyone because like i showed you before I CANT SAVE ANYONE AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE ON THIS EARTH. YOU CANT WIN SOULS FOR JESUS AND YOU CANT SAVE SOMEONE ELSE TO SAVE YOU. Thats ridiculous and unscriptural!! There only one way someone can "come" to God--

+++Ben: - AK4, I am aware of that language above. But that's okay, I won't insist on the fact that you are trying to save me. I know that there is just one way someone can come to God, and that's through Israel, the Jewish People. (Isa. 43:21)

Joh 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and you only able to come to Jesus by faith and you dont get that on your own--
Eph 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

+++Ben: - The above two quotations are not from Jesus, but from Paul.

Now your pride is nothing but sin. You think because you have Jewish heritage you are better than anyone else. What does God have to say about this pride of the Jews--

+++Ben: - It doesn't matter what God says or not about us, He is stuck with us for good. Jeremiah says that our relationship with God is as constant as the sun comes up everyday and the moon lights the night. (Jer. 31:35)

Le 26:19 -And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
Job 35:12 -There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men.
Job 41:15 - His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
Ps 59:12 -For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak.
Zep 3:11 -In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.

+++Ben: - All the above have happened to us in exile. We are back and God is with us again.

Now watch you use replacement theology to get you out of this one.
Since when has the Jews known whom to worship. Is God constantly lying in the OT about how much of an adultress you guys are and yall worshipping idols? If gentiles dont know who to worship and yall do and yall are "supposed" to show us--then the gentiles are doomed.

+++Ben: - We have shown you already whom to worship when we gave you the Bible and a God to worship. If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worship the stone and the
fire; and perhaps even a block of wood in the shape of a demon. You should be grateful to God on our behalf.

Why are yall called an adultress? Its because of what or who or how many different gods yall worshipped. GIVE ME A BREAK

+++Ben: - A break from us is not what you want. Think of the Egyptians if they could afford saying to Joseph to give them a break and leave?

Am 2:4 - This is what the Lord says: "For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back my wrath. Because they have rejected the law of the Lord and have not kept his decrees, because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed,

+++Ben: - Yes, there was a time when Judah reached that condition you describe above. But Messiah ben Joseph (Israel, the Ten Tribes) died in our place and restored our relationship with God. (Isa. 9:8)

Acts 7:52 Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him-- 53 you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

+++Ben: - The Jewish People never killed one singue Prophet. These are Christian faslse accusations. If a King or his consort kills a Prophet why the whole People have to be charged with? In that case, the American people killed several Presidents and fredom fighters. Is it okay to say that the Americans killed Kenedy? I didn't think so. How come it's okay for the Jewish People to have killed the Prophets? That's called Antisemitism.

Righteous ONE. Not righteous many. Not righteous nation/people/collective messiah. ONE. Isa 53 is about Jesus not the Jews as a whole. Replacement theology? Boy if this isnt it i dont know what is.

+++Ben: - The righteous one of Isaiah 53 is Judah which was made righteous by the death of Israel, (MBJ). The righteous one is the House of Jacob called by the new Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1) Whom should I believe, Isaiah who says that the Righteous one is Israel or AK4 who says that he is Jesus? Not a hard one to
choose from, is it?

PS At least christians replacement theology isnt trying to replace themselves over the Messiah like you guys are:foot::banghead3:banghead3:ko:

My comments follow yours in between.

Ben

 

[AK4]

+++Ben: - AK4, I am aware of that language above. But that's okay, I won't insist on the fact that you are trying to save me. I know that there is just one way someone can come to God, and that's through Israel, the Jewish People. (Isa. 43:21)

Really im not. Actually i am just USING you to strengthen my faith. If i was trying to save you, it would make me a hypocrite and i am far from that. Your blasphemy gives me excercise in searching His (thats single, not collective) Word, although it is very little. I wish you could do better.

+++Ben: - It doesn't matter what God says or not about us, He is stuck with us for good. Jeremiah says that our relationship with God is as constant as the sun comes up everyday and the moon lights the night. (Jer. 31:35)

It doesnt matter what God says---We Jews will worship whoever we want and God will stay with us. Exactly what they were saying in the OT too and look what happened.

+++Ben: - All the above have happened to us in exile. We are back and God is with us again.

I must be psychic didnt i predict this. Wow talk about replacement theology

+++Ben: - We have shown you already whom to worship when we gave you the Bible and a God to worship. If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worship the stone and the
fire; and perhaps even a block of wood in the shape of a demon. You should be grateful to God on our behalf.

Youve said this before please come with something else. And you say We as if it was the nation--it was certain prophets and apostles and most important Jesus-- More replacement theology

+++Ben: - The Jewish People never killed one singue Prophet. These are Christian faslse accusations. If a King or his consort kills a Prophet why the whole People have to be charged with? In that case, the American people killed several Presidents and fredom fighters. Is it okay to say that the Americans killed Kenedy? I didn't think so. How come it's okay for the Jewish People to have killed the Prophets? That's called Antisemitism.

More replacement theology--When one of the kings back in those days committed adultery with idols he lead the whole nation, save a few, to commit this adultery and God charged them all, the nation, with it. It was the same with the prophets. Oh i guess God is wrong again.
1Ki 18:22 - Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the Lord's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. Romans 11:1-32 1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? Isnt this two people of the same blood, Isrealites? Heres one 1 Kings 13:23-34 23 When the man of God had finished eating and drinking, the prophet who had brought him back saddled his donkey for him. 24 As he went on his way, a lion met him on the road and killed him, and his body was thrown down on the road, with both the donkey and the lion standing beside it. 25 Some people who passed by saw the body thrown down there, with the lion standing beside the body, and they went and reported it in the city where the old prophet lived. 26 When the prophet who had brought him back from his journey heard of it, he said, "It is the man of God who defied the word of the Lord. The Lord has given him over to the lion, which has mauled him and killed him, as the word of the Lord had warned him."
Antisetimism? It may be for some but its not with me. I just quoting Gods word-- Oh and dont forget the biggest Prophet you guys killed Jesus--CAN YOU SAY Judas?

+++Ben: - The righteous one of Isaiah 53 is Judah which was made righteous by the death of Israel, (MBJ). The righteous one is the House of Jacob called by the new Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1) Whom should I believe, Isaiah who says that the Righteous one is Israel or AK4 who says that he is Jesus? Not a hard one to
choose from, is it?

Ahh but it aint me you are rejecting, its God and His Word who is Jesus. Im quoting scripture and you just dismiss it because you despise it because it shows your beliefs/thinking is warped and unscriptural

 

[Jeremy Mason]

When I read it, I see that it is clearly talking about Jesus. If you don't beleive Jesus is a the Messiah, then you will TRY to find a different meaning. However, Jesus fulfilled all requirement in Isaiah 53.

However, Jesus was never born deformed.

Isaiah 53:1-3 (NIV)


1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.


Where does it say the servant was born deformed? And if it did, how do you know what Jesus looked like? Your evidence might come from v. 3, however, this is an analogy of lack of admiration and not physical aesthetics.

Thousands have followed him in his life, unlike this servant.

They only followed Jesus for short periods of time and when he told them what was required of his disciples, they left.

John 6

Also it speak of him living long life, which Jesus didn't.

Isaiah 53:4-8 (NIV)

4 Surely he took up our infirmitiesand carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.

And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken

Where does it say that he live a long life?

And it also speak of the servant's descendants, but Jesus had none.....unless you believe the Da Vinci's Code.

While I found the Da Vinci's Code to be a very interesting book, the truth of the matter is Jesus' descendants are his followers, which are many. Jesus gave up his life to show the world the spiritual world.

But if you read in context with the other chapters, surrounding Isaiah 53, it speak of Israel and Jerusalem. Jesus wasn't just about Jerusalem or Israel, for they (Israel and Jerusalem) are irrelevant in the gospels.

Your right about Jesus' inclusion of the whole world. However,
God chose the Jews to be his nation first, that is obvious, and Jesus displayed reservations about who deserves to be first in line, so to speak.

Isaiah 53:9-12 (NIV)

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


No nation can bear the sins of anyone. In Biblical terms, a clean person has to atone for sin and all fall short of the glory of God, but Jesus. Jesus was the only Biblical person to accomplish this task. Now, many people will fart and tap-dance around this subject. But if you are to look at all Scripture, the Suffering Servant is clearly Jesus. :angel2:

And I still don't know what this topic is all about.

Now do you understand what this topic is about?

 

[Ben Masada]

+++Ben: - AK4, I am aware of that language above. But that's okay, I won't insist on the fact that you are trying to save me. I know that there is just one way someone can come to God, and that's through Israel, the Jewish People. (Isa. 43:21)

Really im not. Actually i am just USING you to strengthen my faith. If i was trying to save you, it would make me a hypocrite and i am far from that. Your blasphemy gives me excercise in searching His (thats single, not collective) Word, although it is very little. I wish you could do better.

+++Ben: - It doesn't matter what God says or not about us, He is stuck with us for good. Jeremiah says that our relationship with God is as constant as the sun comes up everyday and the moon lights the night. (Jer. 31:35)

It doesnt matter what God says---We Jews will worship whoever we want and God will stay with us. Exactly what they were saying in the OT too and look what happened.

+++Ben: - All the above have happened to us in exile. We are back and God is with us again.

I must be psychic didnt i predict this. Wow talk about replacement theology

+++Ben: - We have shown you already whom to worship when we gave you the Bible and a God to worship. If it were not for us, you would still be in the cave worship the stone and the
fire; and perhaps even a block of wood in the shape of a demon. You should be grateful to God on our behalf.

Youve said this before please come with something else. And you say We as if it was the nation--it was certain prophets and apostles and most important Jesus-- More replacement theology

+++Ben: - The Jewish People never killed one singue Prophet. These are Christian faslse accusations. If a King or his consort kills a Prophet why the whole People have to be charged with? In that case, the American people killed several Presidents and fredom fighters. Is it okay to say that the Americans killed Kenedy? I didn't think so. How come it's okay for the Jewish People to have killed the Prophets? That's called Antisemitism.

More replacement theology--When one of the kings back in those days committed adultery with idols he lead the whole nation, save a few, to commit this adultery and God charged them all, the nation, with it. It was the same with the prophets. Oh i guess God is wrong again.
1Ki 18:22 - Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the Lord's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. Romans 11:1-32 1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? Isnt this two people of the same blood, Isrealites? Heres one 1 Kings 13:23-34 23 When the man of God had finished eating and drinking, the prophet who had brought him back saddled his donkey for him. 24 As he went on his way, a lion met him on the road and killed him, and his body was thrown down on the road, with both the donkey and the lion standing beside it. 25 Some people who passed by saw the body thrown down there, with the lion standing beside the body, and they went and reported it in the city where the old prophet lived. 26 When the prophet who had brought him back from his journey heard of it, he said, "It is the man of God who defied the word of the Lord. The Lord has given him over to the lion, which has mauled him and killed him, as the word of the Lord had warned him."
Antisetimism? It may be for some but its not with me. I just quoting Gods word-- Oh and dont forget the biggest Prophet you guys killed Jesus--CAN YOU SAY Judas?

+++Ben: - The righteous one of Isaiah 53 is Judah which was made righteous by the death of Israel, (MBJ). The righteous one is the House of Jacob called by the new Israel from the stock of Judah. (Isa. 48:1) Whom should I believe, Isaiah who says that the Righteous one is Israel or AK4 who says that he is Jesus? Not a hard one to
choose from, is it?

Ahh but it aint me you are rejecting, its God and His Word who is Jesus. Im quoting scripture and you just dismiss it because you despise it because it shows your beliefs/thinking is warped and unscriptural

Are you sure the Word is Jesus? And are you sure that what I say is not Scriptural?

Let's see first who is the Word and if I am not Scriptural.

1. Jesus declared that the Truth is the Word of God. Check John 17:17.
2. The Psalmist declared that the Word of God is light in the path of man. Check Psalm 119:105.
3. Jesus declared that the Jews are the light of the world. Chech Matthew 5:14.
4. The Psalmist declared that God's Word was given to the Jews only and to no other
people on earth. Check Psalm 147:19,20.

Now, what's the final conclusion? That Israel, the Jewish People is the Word of God made flesh to dwell among men.

Ben

 

[gnostic]

Where does it say the servant was born deformed?

Sorry, wrong usage of the word. Perhaps a more precise word would be disfigured, not derformed, however, he hardly resembles human, so this "suffering servant" could be deformed.

As I said in my other replies, you and other ignoring the big picture. The Suffering Servant didn't begin at 53:1; the passage actually begins in Isaiah 52-13.

Just as the many were appalled at him -
So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man,
His form, beyond human semblance -

Many people were shocked when they saw him; he was so disfigured that he hardly looked human.

As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

You ignore that chaper 53 is also related to chapters 49-52 and 54-55, which is all related to restoring Israel and Jerusalem. That's the big picture you Christians are mising.

He was despised and shunned by men,
A man suffering, familiar with disease.
As one who hid his face from us,
He was despised, we held him of no account.

This is not true in regarding to Jesus. He did not suffer from disease, nor hid his face because of deformity or disfigurement.

And he was not despised by all men. Thousands went to listen and learn from Jesus. Servants, fishermen, shepherds, carpenters, tax-collectors, etc. That hardly sound like ones despised. The only who despised Jesus were those priests and pharisees.

While I found the Da Vinci's Code to be a very interesting book, the truth of the matter is Jesus' descendants are his followers, which are many. Jesus gave up his life to show the world the spiritual world.

Hogwash. And you accuse people like me of tapping dancing around the subjects.

Now, many people will fart and tap-dance around this subject.

You are as bad as anyone, twisting small verse here and there, to push meaning into words that have no relationship to the context for your own agenda.

Descendants mean "descendants", not Christians.

I am neither Christian nor Jew, so I don't have agenda, here, except to point that your interpretation on the text is very misleading.

I would admit that some of it may be interpreted that it could be Jesus, but when you considered other verses in this chapter, Jesus bears no resemblance with Isaiah's suffering servant.

 

[AK4]

Are you sure the Word is Jesus? And are you sure that what I say is not Scriptural?

Let's see first who is the Word and if I am not Scriptural.

1. Jesus declared that the Truth is the Word of God. Check John 17:17.
2. The Psalmist declared that the Word of God is light in the path of man. Check Psalm 119:105.
3. Jesus declared that the Jews are the light of the world. Chech Matthew 5:14.
4. The Psalmist declared that God's Word was given to the Jews only and to no other
people on earth. Check Psalm 147:19,20.

Now, what's the final conclusion? That Israel, the Jewish People is the Word of God made flesh to dwell among men.

Ben

You know for someone who talks about metaphors and analogies, when it comes to what you want to believe it turns into a literal thing. Apparently you still dont realise that ALL of Gods Word is Spirit and that He is speaking to the WHOLE WORLD THEN AND NOW IN PARABLES/METAPHORS/ANALOGIES. You are so short sighted for (what you would say) a Jew.

Like i said before, the christains have their replacement theology of wanting to be Isreal (in the literal sense) and you and your collective messiah have your replacement theology of wanting to be Jesus/God/the Messiah. Good grief. Why cant anyone give God the glory He deserves? Everyone wants to be Him and you take the cake!!

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Sorry, wrong usage of the word. Perhaps a more precise word would be disfigured, not derformed, however, he hardly resembles human, so this "suffering servant" could be deformed.

As I said in my other replies, you and other ignoring the big picture. The Suffering Servant didn't begin at 53:1; the passage actually begins in Isaiah 52-13.

and

You ignore that chaper 53 is also related to chapters 49-52 and 54-55, which is all related to restoring Israel and Jerusalem. That's the big picture you Christians are missing.

I have not ignored anything and my position still stands.

Hogwash. And you accuse people like me of tapping dancing around the subjects.

Sorry, I wasn't accusing you of anything. Funny you should include yourself with the tap-dancers.

This is not true in regarding to Jesus. He did not suffer from disease, nor hid his face because of deformity or disfigurement.

For your sake, I'm going to allow you to rephrase the statement.

And he was not despised by all men. Thousands went to listen and learn from Jesus. Servants, fishermen, shepherds, carpenters, tax-collectors, etc. That hardly sound like ones despised. The only who despised Jesus were those priests and pharisees.

Did you read John 6? :flirt:

You are as bad as anyone, twisting small verse here and there, to push meaning into words that have no relationship to the context for your own agenda.

Descendants mean "descendants", not Christians.

Matthew 12:46-50
Jesus' Mother and Brothers

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." 48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


Does that help you?

 

[Ben Masada]

When I read it, I see that it is clearly talking about Jesus. If you don't beleive Jesus is a the Messiah, then you will TRY to find a different meaning. However, Jesus fulfilled all requirement in Isaiah 53.

+++Ben: - The only way to say that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus is from assumptions. And assumptions butter no bread. To begin with the theme for the whole book of Isaiah is Judah. See Isaiah 1:1.

Isaiah 53:1-3 (NIV)

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
+++Ben: - No one could believe why the Assyrian had come for Judah and decided to Israel instead. That's in Isaiah 9:8.
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire.
+++Ben: - That's a reference to the beginnings of Israel coming out of the desert towards Canaan. No one would give them any credit but it proved to be a phenomenon.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
+++Ben: - Here Isaiah shows how much Israel is despised by all nations. And for being a man of sorrows, Psalm 44:10-23 describe this passage exactly as of being the reference to the People of Israel.
Where does it say the servant was born deformed? And if it did, how do you know what Jesus looked like? Your evidence might come from v. 3, however, this is an analogy of lack of admiration and not physical aesthetics.
+++Ben: - That's exactly as you say: An allegory.
They only followed Jesus for short periods of time and when he told them what was required of his disciples, they left. John 6

Isaiah 53:4-8 (NIV)
4 Surely he took up our infirmitiesand carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
+++Ben: - He, is Israel or Messiah ben Joseph who took up the infirmities of Judah, or Messiah ben David. Yet, Judah always considered Israel stricken, smitten and afflicted by God.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
+++Ben: - But Israel was pierced for the transgressions of Judah. It was the death of Israel that brought peace and healing to Judah. (Isa. 9:8)
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
+++Ben: - Judah like sheep had gone astray; but because God had promised David to preserve Judah as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever, according to I Kings 11:36, He took
Israel instead of Judah.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
+++Ben: - Israel was oppressed till death in silence because he didn't know what was going on, and why he was going through that sacrifice. That's what silence mens.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken
+++Ben: - The Land of Yisrael is known as the Land of the living. Thus, Israel or Messiah ben Joseph was cut off from the Land of the living because of the transgressions of Judah, my people, or the people of Isaiah. And even today no one can speak of his Israel's descendants because they got lost among the Gentiles.
Where does it say that he live a long life?
While I found the Da Vinci's Code to be a very interesting book, the truth of the matter is Jesus' descendants are his followers, which are many. Jesus gave up his life to show the world the spiritual world. Your right about Jesus' inclusion of the whole world. However, God chose the Jews to be his nation first, that is obvious, and Jesus displayed reservations about who deserves to be first in line, so to speak.
+++Ben: - To see Jesus here one has to assume. If it were not for Paul who composed his Christology, nobody would think that Jesus could be a possibity.

Isaiah 53:9-12 (NIV)
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
+++Ben: - The grave of Israel was assigned in the Diaspora among the Gentiles. And he did not do any of the violence he died for. All the deceit of Judah's, not Israel's.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
+++Ben: - It pleased God to crush him because by doing so Judah would survive, and God's promise to David had been vindicated. The offspring of Israel (MBJ) was Judah
(MBD). The will of God prospered in his hands means that the purpose of God was fulfilled.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
+++Ben: - The righteous Servant was Israel (MBJ) and the many was the People of Judah, opposite to all Mankind.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
+++Ben: - After satisfaction of fulfilled duty by dying for the transgressions of Judah, he was numbered with the transgressors by being exiled among the Gentiles.
This way he bore the sins of Judah. And intercession for the transgressors means that Israel was between God and Judah, the transgressors, who got healed before God.
No nation can bear the sins of anyone. In Biblical terms, a clean person has to atone for sin and all fall short of the glory of God, but Jesus. Jesus was the only Biblical person to accomplish this task. Now, many people will fart and tap-dance around this subject. But if you are to look at all Scripture, the Suffering Servant is clearly Jesus.
+++Ben: - Oh yes, a nation can indeed bear the sins of another because that's exactly what happened here. What's Biblical is that no individual can be allowed to die for another. (Deut. 24:16; II Kings 14:6; Jer. 31:30; Eze. 18:4) But a nation can
die for another. (Isa. 9:8)


Now do you understand what this topic is about?

+++Ben: - Of course! Now, it's perfectly understood. The whole thing is about the drama between Messiah ben Joseph vs. Messiah ben David. Israel vs. Judah. Now,
after Israel is gone, according to Psalm 78:67,68, Judah has taken the place of the
Suffering Servant with regards to the rest of Mankind, because of God's promise to
Noah that He would never destroy Mankind again in a universal manner. The pledge
to guarantee His promise resides in the existence of the new Israel from the stock
of Judah.

Ben :clap (All the other answers are in red above).

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Ben, put simply, I don't read Scripture the same way you do. But you sure tap-dance with the best of them. :jiggy: :biglaugh:

 

[gnostic]

For your sake, I'm going to allow you to rephrase the statement.

If a person don't look human, would you say it is disfigurement or deformity?

Did you read John 6?

Ok, which part are you referring to?

The feeding of thousands? Then yes. Did Jesus hid his face or head because of his disfigurement? He left them because they were crowding him after he fed them.

So why do you want me to seek John 6?

Matthew 12:46-50
Jesus' Mother and Brothers

46While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." 48He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" 49Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. 50For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."


Does that help you?

No, it doesn't.

It still doesn't make his disciples "descendants" in any sense. If I call you brother, it doesn't mean I am uncle to any children you may have. It is only symbolic.

Some people called their preachers/priests, "father", it doesn't mean that they are related in any way, except that they share the same faith. And the priests would not have descendants, unless he actually was a father, biologically.

Again, you're still forgetting the other chapters that referred to Israel, and how this chapter to relate to others. So your reference to Matthew is meaningless and irrelevant to Isaiah's passages.