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The suffering servant of isaiah 53

AK4

Well-Known Member
+++Ben: - My comments follow yours in between.

Ben :eek:

You did it again, you avoided answering the question. So i will not even respond to your comments. As for what you believe, you have lost another soul because you cant show them "the light" that is to suppose to come from the literal Jewish heritage that you say you are representing, and you are covering up :cover: this light with a bowl.

Lost forever:sad4:

AK4

ps LOL
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
You did it again, you avoided answering the question. So i will not even respond to your comments. As for what you believe, you have lost another soul because you cant show them "the light" that is to suppose to come from the literal Jewish heritage that you say you are representing, and you are covering up :cover: this light with a bowl.

Lost forever:sad4:

AK4

ps LOL


Did you read that quotation of John Adams under the thread "Pope Pius XII?"


"If I was an Antheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate
had ordained the Jews to be the most essencial instrument for civilizing the nations...
They have influenced the affairs of Mankind more and more happily than
any other nation, ancient or modern." Isn't it beautiful?


Ben :clap
 

gnostic

The Lost One
jeremy mason said:
I said Jesus' Word= Truth, not that Jesus was physical a word. Talk about twisting words.

I don't take it as Jesus being the Word, physically or spiritually. I still see the comparison of Jesus as the Word, or Logo, as nothing more than a simile.

I don't know how you John 1, as to what.
gnostic said:
Jesus did write those words. They belonged to John's and what he thought Jesus was like. And he done so by comparing his messiah with something abstract. Is Jesus really just a word, light or truth? Or is he flesh and blood? Or spirit?

Sorry, I need to correct the first sentence here. It should read as:-

gnostic said:
Jesus didn't write those words.

I meant to say that John wrote John 1, not Jesus, and from literary point, John was comparing Jesus with Logo or Word, as a simile. I don't think John meant it literally.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
You did it again, you avoided answering the question. So i will not even respond to your comments. As for what you believe, you have lost another soul because you cant show them "the light" that is to suppose to come from the literal Jewish heritage that you say you are representing, and you are covering up :cover: this light with a bowl.

Lost forever:sad4:

AK4

ps LOL


Lost forever! That's what you think. The problem with you is that you don't listen to what Jesus says.
He said that salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22) How can I be lost forever? If you don't wake up, you are the one lost forever.


Ben :rolleyes:
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
I meant to say that John wrote John 1, not Jesus, and from literary point, John was comparing Jesus with Logo or Word, as a simile. I don't think John meant it literally.

Yes, John wrote John. Jesus was a man who spoke God's Word. Jesus was God's servant and he suffered to atone for the sins of many.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The problem with you is that you don't listen to what Jesus says. He said that salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22)
No, the idiosyncratic author of John said that 'Jesus' said that salvation is of the Jews. Regarding this author Udo Schnelle writes:
The different way in which the life of Jesus is portayed, the independent theology, the numerous special traditions and the thought world explicitly oriented to the post-Easter perspective point to the conclusion that the Fourth Gospel was not composed by an eyewitness of the life of Jesus. He was a 'theologian of the latter period' who, on the basis of comprehensive traditions, rethought the meaning of Jesus' life, and interpreted and presented it in his own way.

- The History and Theology of New Testament Writings, pg. 474​
Schnelle goes on to explicate the scholarly consensus that the work originated in Asia Minor in the early 2nd century.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
Lost forever! That's what you think. The problem with you is that you don't listen to what Jesus says.
He said that salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22) How can I be lost forever? If you don't wake up, you are the one lost forever.


Ben :rolleyes:

My oh my. I was talking about myself being lost--You should actually know since you are a Jew that forever is not scriptural either--so you should of corrected me there too. Salvation is of the Jews correct, but one is a Jew only if they have circumcision of the heart. So right now you are a gentile because you dont believe all the Words of God.

I take it you are a newcomer to your new religion. Because you cant answer my question. Thats fine. Stop being like a politician and say i cant answer that right now i will have to do some research and i will get back with you. I would at least cut you some slack if you said that. But ducking and dodging the question, you are making yourself look pretty bad.

Just some friendly advise from you good neighbored gentile--:bonk:
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
My oh my. I was talking about myself being lost--You should actually know since you are a Jew that forever is not scriptural either--so you should of corrected me there too. Salvation is of the Jews correct, but one is a Jew only if they have circumcision of the heart. So right now you are a gentile because you dont believe all the Words of God.

I take it you are a newcomer to your new religion. Because you cant answer my question. Thats fine. Stop being like a politician and say i cant answer that right now i will have to do some research and i will get back with you. I would at least cut you some slack if you said that. But ducking and dodging the question, you are making yourself look pretty bad.

Just some friendly advise from you good neighbored gentile--:bonk:


So, "forever" is not Scriptural, isn't it what you say? Take a look at Job 7:9; 10:21; 14:12; Psalm 88:6; Prov. 2:19. Once we leave this life we return no more. This means forever to me.

What makes you think I am not circumcised in the heart? Foundless accusations because you don't know me. Why? Because I can't believe in the idolatry of Greek Mythology being forced upon Judaism? Have mercy! You always forget that you dealing with "Daniel" who would rather die than to bend his knee to a man made god
by a former Hellenistic Jew.

Show me in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle. The only Scriptures that Jesus knew that I don't believe in the Word of God.

Ben :slap:
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
So, "forever" is not Scriptural, isn't it what you say? Take a look at Job 7:9; 10:21; 14:12; Psalm 88:6; Prov. 2:19. Once we leave this life we return no more. This means forever to me.

What makes you think I am not circumcised in the heart? Foundless accusations because you don't know me. Why? Because I can't believe in the idolatry of Greek Mythology being forced upon Judaism? Have mercy! You always forget that you dealing with "Daniel" who would rather die than to bend his knee to a man made god
by a former Hellenistic Jew.

Show me in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle. The only Scriptures that Jesus knew that I don't believe in the Word of God.

Ben :slap:

Do you even understand the quotes you put? I mean really do you? Job considered by God to be a righteous man goes to Sheol and never returns or resurrected? Or is he meaning something like

Job 14:14 -If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

:foot::foot:Come on now. Why do i have to show you these things? I prove you wrong over and over again with scripture. Now either you just dont understand or God is lying about the resurrection of the just and unjust (Dan 12:2)

You right i assume, but going by your words i can easily determine that unless you are a hypocrite--which in that case it probably is a good thing for you.

Show me in the Scriptures that Jesus used to handle. The only Scriptures that Jesus knew that I don't believe in the Word of God.

???? Huh? What? Please clarify?

Oh and BTW aonis and eonis does not mean forever, it mean age and ages. Do your homework and you will see this.
 
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Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Do you even understand the quotes you put? I mean really do you? Job considered by God to be a righteous man goes to Sheol and never returns or resurrected? Or is he meaning something like
Job 14:14 -If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

+++Ben - I will give you the benefit of the doubt by not charging you here with being a hypocrite, but of being an
ignorante moron who does not understand when the Bible is speaking in figures or reality.


+++Ben: - What about Job 14:14? I'll enlighten you if you are able to learn anything. But I doubt it. Anyway, in "if a man dies,
shall he live again?" Job meant to confirm what he had said before, that once dead no one will ever return.


+++Ben: - In "all the days of my appointed time will I wait," this is a reference to his appointed time to live on earth.
He would wait and not lose hope.


+++Ben: - And in "till my change comes," this is a reference to his change of condition from the misfortunes of his life
back to what was before, which turned out to be better.


+++Ben: - This is a message never to panick or give up, because misfortunes in life always change. Now, see if you can
learn and stop hitting your head against the wall.

:foot::foot:Come on now. Why do i have to show you these things? I prove you wrong over and over again with scripture. Now either you just dont understand or God is lying about the resurrection of the just and unjust (Dan 12:2)

+++Ben: - I'll enlighten you on this one too, although I am sure that when one gets infected by blind faith,
he becomes incurably ignorant.


+++Ben: - Daniel was in exile in Babylon and his book carrying his name was written in Israel during the Greek persecutions by Atiochus.
The author albeit, unknown, is the same who wrote the books of the Maccabees.


+++Ben: - Daniel 12:2 is a reference to the return home of the exiles which is pictured as a resurrection from the graves of the nations
and return to the Land of the living, which is Israel. (Ezek. 37:21; Isa. 53:8)

+++Ben: - In Daniel 12:2, "those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" at the end of exile, "some to everlasting life," meaning to return to their homeland in Israel. And "some to shame and everlasting contempt," meaning the majority who would prefer to stay in Babylon exhibiting the shame of an exiled by choice.

You right i assume, but going by your words i can easily determine that unless you are a hypocrite--which in that case it probably is a good thing for you.
???? Huh? What? Please clarify?
Oh and BTW aonis and eonis does not mean forever, it mean age and ages. Do your homework and you will see this.

My comments go in between yours.

Ben :eek:
 
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AK4

Well-Known Member
+++Ben - I will give you the benefit of the doubt by not charging you here with being a hypocrite, but of being an
ignorante moron who does not understand when the Bible is speaking in figures or reality.

My my testy testy, Sadducee. Me being a hypocrite--where and prove it!! Find one thing ive ever said that has contradicted. Good luck. So you dont believe in resurrection, but since you dont have the eyes to see that the whole bible is one big parable you also wont see how God symbolizes how He resurrects all throughout the OT either. Hypocrite? One who says he follows the ways of Jesus but will deny that Jesus said He is the light and the resurrection is the hypocrite!

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Is God a hypocrite when He says...

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living

Or Did Jesus just make this up?:no: Yes you say because it was Paul and his cronies who put this in there. Hypocrite

+++Ben: - What about Job 14:14? I'll enlighten you if you are able to learn anything. But I doubt it. Anyway, in "if a man dies,
shall he live again?" Job meant to confirm what he had said before, that once dead no one will ever return.

So now Jobs a hypocrite too. He plainly states a resurrection, a change. Goodness what people will do to make things fit their religion



+++Ben: - In "all the days of my appointed time will I wait," this is a reference to his appointed time to live on earth.
He would wait and not lose hope.

Really. So the part where he says "if a man dies" is thrown right out. HYPOCRITE. Its just another form of your replacement theology.


+++Ben: - And in "till my change comes," this is a reference to his change of condition from the misfortunes of his life
back to what was before, which turned out to be better.

Oh come on. You just grasping for straws here. Did he know the future of his earthly life? "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" Did he go on to say and "the Lord will give me again"



+++Ben: - This is a message never to panick or give up, because misfortunes in life always change. Now, see if you can
learn and stop hitting your head against the wall.

LOL. Do the misfortune of someone who gets cancer or better yet aids need not to panic or give up because thing will work out/change? You say commonsense, its running from you:run:


:foot::foot:Come on now. Why do i have to show you these things? I prove you wrong over and over again with scripture. Now either you just dont understand or God is lying about the resurrection of the just and unjust (Dan 12:2)

+++Ben: - I'll enlighten you on this one too, although I am sure that when one gets infected by blind faith,
he becomes incurably ignorant.


+++Ben: - Daniel was in exile in Babylon and his book carrying his name was written in Israel during the Greek persecutions by Atiochus.
The author albeit, unknown, is the same who wrote the books of the Maccabees.


+++Ben: - Daniel 12:2 is a reference to the return home of the exiles which is pictured as a resurrection from the graves of the nations
and return to the Land of the living, which is Israel. (Ezek. 37:21; Isa. 53:8)

So HYPOCRITE, in one voice you discredit it (maybe not to the full extent but you down play it) by saying it was written by someone else than Daniel and then you give it credit by saying it is representing something for Isreal? Now I will ask you again, do you understand the verses you quote (and i will add) do you understand the things you are saying? I mean really do you?

You are making me look like i am full of knowledge and that i seem to "know" everything, which is far from the truth. All i am doing is using scripture and your own words against you and you are drowning.

+++Ben: - In Daniel 12:2, "those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" at the end of exile, "some to everlasting life," meaning to return to their homeland in Israel. And "some to shame and everlasting contempt," meaning the majority who would prefer to stay in Babylon exhibiting the shame of an exiled by choice.

You right i assume, but going by your words i can easily determine that unless you are a hypocrite--which in that case it probably is a good thing for you.
???? Huh? What? Please clarify?
Oh and BTW aonis and eonis does not mean forever, it mean age and ages. Do your homework and you will see this

And this above is another question unanswered. And also, now for your belief you have to save a gentile so you can be saved---but WHY? There is no resurrection so what are you saving yourself from? What are you saving anyone from? Eternal death?

Are you full yet:foot::foot::foot:
 
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Heneni

Miss Independent
Me being a hypocrite--where and prove it!! Find one thing ive ever said that has contradicted. Good luck.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


Right now you have gone and done it! Made yourself a hypi! (hypocrite).

THOUGH HE WERE DEAD (past tense), yet shall he live (present tense). Did you not say it is appointed for a man to die once?

So if you are going to die in the future...you have died twice ! HE HE...

Maybe you should go easy on the calling others a hypocrite thing you know..shall we just consider what others are saying. For one, anybody that believes that god exists is at least more fun to talk to about spiritual matters, than talking to someone who doesnt believe he is real.

heneni
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
+++Ben - I will give you the benefit of the doubt by not charging you here with being a hypocrite, but of being an
ignorante moron who does not understand when the Bible is speaking in figures or reality.

My my testy testy, Sadducee. Me being a hypocrite--where and prove it!! Find one thing ive ever said that has contradicted. Good luck. So you dont believe in resurrection, but since you dont have the eyes to see that the whole bible is one big parable you also wont see how God symbolizes how He resurrects all throughout the OT either. Hypocrite? One who says he follows the ways of Jesus but will deny that Jesus said He is the light and the resurrection is the hypocrite!

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Is God a hypocrite when He says...

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living

Or Did Jesus just make this up?:no: Yes you say because it was Paul and his cronies who put this in there. Hypocrite

+++Ben: - What about Job 14:14? I'll enlighten you if you are able to learn anything. But I doubt it. Anyway, in "if a man dies,
shall he live again?" Job meant to confirm what he had said before, that once dead no one will ever return.

So now Jobs a hypocrite too. He plainly states a resurrection, a change. Goodness what people will do to make things fit their religion



+++Ben: - In "all the days of my appointed time will I wait," this is a reference to his appointed time to live on earth.
He would wait and not lose hope.

Really. So the part where he says "if a man dies" is thrown right out. HYPOCRITE. Its just another form of your replacement theology.


+++Ben: - And in "till my change comes," this is a reference to his change of condition from the misfortunes of his life
back to what was before, which turned out to be better.

Oh come on. You just grasping for straws here. Did he know the future of his earthly life? "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" Did he go on to say and "the Lord will give me again"



+++Ben: - This is a message never to panick or give up, because misfortunes in life always change. Now, see if you can
learn and stop hitting your head against the wall.

LOL. Do the misfortune of someone who gets cancer or better yet aids need not to panic or give up because thing will work out/change? You say commonsense, its running from you:run:


:foot::foot:Come on now. Why do i have to show you these things? I prove you wrong over and over again with scripture. Now either you just dont understand or God is lying about the resurrection of the just and unjust (Dan 12:2)

+++Ben: - I'll enlighten you on this one too, although I am sure that when one gets infected by blind faith,
he becomes incurably ignorant.


+++Ben: - Daniel was in exile in Babylon and his book carrying his name was written in Israel during the Greek persecutions by Atiochus.
The author albeit, unknown, is the same who wrote the books of the Maccabees.


+++Ben: - Daniel 12:2 is a reference to the return home of the exiles which is pictured as a resurrection from the graves of the nations
and return to the Land of the living, which is Israel. (Ezek. 37:21; Isa. 53:8)

So HYPOCRITE, in one voice you discredit it (maybe not to the full extent but you down play it) by saying it was written by someone else than Daniel and then you give it credit by saying it is representing something for Isreal? Now I will ask you again, do you understand the verses you quote (and i will add) do you understand the things you are saying? I mean really do you?

You are making me look like i am full of knowledge and that i seem to "know" everything, which is far from the truth. All i am doing is using scripture and your own words against you and you are drowning.

+++Ben: - In Daniel 12:2, "those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" at the end of exile, "some to everlasting life," meaning to return to their homeland in Israel. And "some to shame and everlasting contempt," meaning the majority who would prefer to stay in Babylon exhibiting the shame of an exiled by choice.

You right i assume, but going by your words i can easily determine that unless you are a hypocrite--which in that case it probably is a good thing for you.
???? Huh? What? Please clarify?
Oh and BTW aonis and eonis does not mean forever, it mean age and ages. Do your homework and you will see this

And this above is another question unanswered. And also, now for your belief you have to save a gentile so you can be saved---but WHY? There is no resurrection so what are you saving yourself from? What are you saving anyone from? Eternal death?

Are you full yet:foot::foot::foot:


We are wasting our time with each other. Let's make a deal: You stick to your Bible, the NT, and I'll stay with mine, the Tanach.
And let's leave each other alone. I rest my case for all that I am concerned.


Ben :run:
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
And this above is another question unanswered. And also, now for your belief you have to save a gentile so you can be saved---but WHY? There is no resurrection so what are you saving yourself from? What are you saving anyone from? Eternal death?

Are you full yet:foot::foot::foot:

Now THAT is good thinking! Ben? What do you say?

Also, ben i noticed on another thread that you believe the book of Job is a novel. You also said that it has something to do with the suffering servant. So then, if its a novel, why do you make it out to be more than a story in order to save us?

Heneni
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Now THAT is good thinking! Ben? What do you say?

Also, ben i noticed on another thread that you believe the book of Job is a novel. You also said that it has something to do with the suffering servant. So then, if its a novel, why do you make it out to be more than a story in order to save us?

Heneni


Have you ever read the book of Job? The man Job never existed.
The book was written with the purpose to illustrate the role of Israel in the Counsel of God.
Job represents Israel and his three friends represent the Gentiles. At the end of the book
God does not accept the prayers or sacrifices of his friends, but instructs them to go to Job
and ask him to intercede for them. That's in Job 42:8. If you can't see mediation here,
we can change the subject and you can say you beat me on this debate. I'll accept defeat.
That's all right.


Yes, the book of Job has a lot to do with the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. Throughout the book,
we have job explaining to his friends that he was suffering innocently; that he had not sinned to suffer that much.
Obviously, it means that he was suffering for someone else's sins. And throughout the book his friends would try
to make him believe that his suffering was caused by his own sins. Obviously, they could not handle the truth that
Job was suffering for their sins. But as I said in the above paragraph, we don't have to continue this debate.
I am ready to give in. Why? Because you will never change my mind, and obviously I will never change yours.
I will only make you upset and upset myself.


Ben :sorry1:
 
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