The thief on the cross: The rule or the exception?

[javajo]

Entry into heaven is simple.

If you go...it's because you belong there.

I see, I believe it hinges on our belief in Jesus: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16,18

 

[Thief]

I see, I believe it hinges on our belief in Jesus: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16,18

A famous quote that is often misused...as is here.

The thief was not spared by this.

 

[javajo]

A famous quote that is often misused...as is here.

Or ignored. I just quoted it.

 

[Jethro]

My position first is that the Bible is God's word and and the standard for doctrine. If another religious writing or author contradicts the Bible, then the Bible is right and the other author is wrong. In saying this, I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me.

It facsinates me that the thief on the cross is the only objection people cite of a person being saved or forgiven without baptism. The only one I've heard anyway. There were others that Jesus saved and forgave as well. The woman who washed his feet, the parylitic, etc.

Romans 6:3-4 We are baptized into his death and, through the glory of the Father, raised with him into a new life. In the account of the thief on the cross Jesus hadn't died yet. The baptism in Jesaus name for the forgivess if sins (Acts 2:38) was not yet in effect.

The new covenant started after Jesus death & ressurection. Luke 5:24 Jesus had
authority on earth to forgive the thief on the cross, the parylitic, the sinful woman, etc. Jeaus left vehibd instructions on baptism Mark 16:16, which Peter carried out (Acts 2:38).

Romans 6:3-4 is talking about the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit (regeneration/being born again) that every true Christian goes through. And water baptism is an outward sign of what has taken place inwardly. Therefore, every true Christian should be baptised because of Romans 6:3-4, and also because Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:18-20. The thief on the cross was an exception and not a rule.

 

[Thief]

Romans 6:3-4 is talking about the spiritual baptism by the Holy Spirit (regeneration/being born again) that every true Christian goes through. And water baptism is an outward sign of what has taken place inwardly. Therefore, every true Christian should be baptised because of Romans 6:3-4, and also because Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:18-20. The thief on the cross was an exception and not a rule.

And the next logical question would be....

The thief that died beside the Carpenter is the ONLY exception?

 

[e.r.m.]

And the next logical question would be....

The thief that died beside the Carpenter is the ONLY exception?

It's a basic lack of understanding of the old & new covenants. For some reason, people only think of the thief on the cross. The rule is: Everyone before Jesus's death lived under the old covenant-Hebrews 9:16-18. The new covenant didn't take effect until after Jesus's death. The thief on the cross, the paralytic, the woman who washed Jesus feet with her hair, the adulterous woman and Zaccheus were all saved while the old covenant was still in effect. Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins-Luke 5:24. Baptism in Jesus name for forgiveness of sins/salvation-Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 wasn't offered until after Jesus's death and resurrection. The thief on the cross and the others mentioned would not have been baptized into Jesus's death (Romans 6:4), because Jesus hadn't died yet.

And NO, Romans 6:3-4 refers to water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism. Look it up in the greek. The whole spiritual baptism nonsense, which people try to use to detract from baptism's stated Biblical purpose, historically is one of the specific doctrines advanced by Huldrich Zwingli, whose teachings cannot be trusted. The greek says WATER baptism.

Jethro, where exactly is that scripture that talks about baptism being an outward sign of what has taken place inwardly? As a pastor, you should be able to find it. & don't give me any scriptures on circumcision, I'm asking about baptism. This is also a concept that has its origin in Zwingli, not the Bible.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's a basic lack of understanding of the old & new covenants. For some reason, people only think of the thief on the cross. The rule is: Everyone before Jesus's death lived under the old covenant-Hebrews 9:16-18. The new covenant didn't take effect until after Jesus's death. The thief on the cross, the paralytic, the woman who washed Jesus feet with her hair, the adulterous woman and Zaccheus were all saved while the old covenant was still in effect. Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins-Luke 5:24. Baptism in Jesus name for forgiveness of sins/salvation-Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 wasn't offered until after Jesus's death and resurrection. The thief on the cross and the others mentioned would not have been baptized into Jesus's death (Romans 6:4), because Jesus hadn't died yet.
And NO, Romans 6:3-4 refers to water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism. Look it up in the greek. The whole spiritual baptism nonsense, which people try to use to detract from baptism's stated Biblical purpose, historically is one of the specific doctrines advanced by Huldrich Zwingli, whose teachings cannot be trusted. The greek says WATER baptism.
Jethro, where exactly is that scripture that talks about baptism being an outward sign of what has taken place inwardly? As a pastor, you should be able to find it. & don't give me any scriptures on circumcision, I'm asking about baptism. This is also a concept that has its origin in Zwingli, not the Bible.

Why do you say concept in Zwingli not Scripture,
because doesn't Romans 10 vs9,10 mentions the 'mouth' .
'Confess with the mouth'. Wouldn't that be a public declaration?

Without public declaration how would the questions be answered at Romans 10vs14,15 ?

2nd Cor. 4v13 mentions believing is the reason for speaking.

What is the 'sacrifice of praise continually' and the 'fruit of the lips' if not a public declaration mentioned at Hebrews 13v15 ?

True, everyone that lived between Genesis and Malachi and died before Jesus died according to John [3v13] did not ascend to heaven.

No one could go to heaven before Jesus died. That would mean they are part of God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed. Blessed with curing or healing of the nations. -Genesis 22vs17,18; Rev. 22v2.

David did not ascend [Acts 2v34], and Daniel [12vs2,13] looked forward to an earthly resurrection, or being awakened from death's sleep during Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth, when at that time Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill on a paradisaic earth.

The promise Jesus made to the thief was an earthly resurrection during Jesus millennial reign over an earthly paradise as Eden was originally a paradise.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The thief on the cross was an exception and not a rule.

All those mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11 then would also be 'the exception and not the rule' because none of those faithful ones according to verses 13 and 39 saw the fulfillment or received the promise.
The promise found at 2nd Peter [3v13] of not only a new heavens but a new earth or new earthly society.
As the earth was made new after the Flood in Noah's day [verse 5]
by removing the wicked, so too Jesus, by the words of his mouth,
will remove the wicked from the earth.

Isaiah 11 vs3,4; Rev. 19 vs11,14,15; Proverbs 2 vs21,22; 10v30; 21v18;
Psalm 92v7; 37 vs11,29, 38-40

They will receive the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham by being part of that promise that all families and all nations of earth will be blessed starting at the time of Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over a paradisaic earth.
Genesis 22vs17,18; Rev 22v2

 

[e.r.m.]

Why do you say concept in Zwingli not Scripture,
because doesn't Romans 10 vs9,10 mentions the 'mouth' .
'Confess with the mouth'. Wouldn't that be a public declaration?

Without public declaration how would the questions be answered at Romans 10vs14,15 ?

2nd Cor. 4v13 mentions believing is the reason for speaking.

What is the 'sacrifice of praise continually' and the 'fruit of the lips' if not a public declaration mentioned at Hebrews 13v15 ?

True, everyone that lived between Genesis and Malachi and died before Jesus died according to John [3v13] did not ascend to heaven.

No one could go to heaven before Jesus died. That would mean they are part of God's promise to Abraham that all families of the earth would be blessed and all nations of the earth will be blessed. Blessed with curing or healing of the nations. -Genesis 22vs17,18; Rev. 22v2.

David did not ascend [Acts 2v34], and Daniel [12vs2,13] looked forward to an earthly resurrection, or being awakened from death's sleep during Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth, when at that time Jesus will usher in global Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill on a paradisaic earth.

The promise Jesus made to the thief was an earthly resurrection during Jesus millennial reign over an earthly paradise as Eden was originally a paradise.

I don't see the relevance of your statement to the topic at hand. The topic is asking Pastor Jethro to demonstrate a scripture that talks about baptism being an outward sign of what has taken place inwardly. Your discussion is about confessing with your mouth. But I am happy to oblige. Protestants are so stuck on this public declaration thing, that they seem to make the purpose of many of the actions of a christian a "public declaration." There are definitely scriptures of making public declarations, and it may be 'incidental' with confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. However, Romans 10:9-10 does not state this as the purpose. The PURPOSE, as stated in Romans 10:9-10, for believing and confessing with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" is to be justified and saved. If anyone happens to benefit from hearing you confess (or watching you get baptized for the forgiveness of your sins-Acts 2:38), well that's good 'too'.

P.S. - Not sure about your ascending to heaven point, but didn't Elijah get taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot?

 

[Thief]

It's a basic lack of understanding of the old & new covenants. For some reason, people only think of the thief on the cross. The rule is: Everyone before Jesus's death lived under the old covenant-Hebrews 9:16-18. The new covenant didn't take effect until after Jesus's death. The thief on the cross, the paralytic, the woman who washed Jesus feet with her hair, the adulterous woman and Zaccheus were all saved while the old covenant was still in effect. Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins-Luke 5:24. Baptism in Jesus name for forgiveness of sins/salvation-Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 wasn't offered until after Jesus's death and resurrection. The thief on the cross and the others mentioned would not have been baptized into Jesus's death (Romans 6:4), because Jesus hadn't died yet.

And NO, Romans 6:3-4 refers to water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism. Look it up in the greek. The whole spiritual baptism nonsense, which people try to use to detract from baptism's stated Biblical purpose, historically is one of the specific doctrines advanced by Huldrich Zwingli, whose teachings cannot be trusted. The greek says WATER baptism.

Jethro, where exactly is that scripture that talks about baptism being an outward sign of what has taken place inwardly? As a pastor, you should be able to find it. & don't give me any scriptures on circumcision, I'm asking about baptism. This is also a concept that has its origin in Zwingli, not the Bible.

A common misunderstanding...yeah...but not mine.
His disciples baptized with water...but He did not.

His Baptism is of fire...of spirit.
Two of His disciples came asking position in the kingdom.
And He spoke of His baptism.

It is not of water.
Water rituals do not save.

 

[Thief]

The promise Jesus made to the thief was an earthly resurrection during Jesus millennial reign over an earthly paradise as Eden was originally a paradise.

Nay....
the kingdom is not of this earth...not of this world.
Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.


The thief did ask to be remembered when the Carpenter receives His kingdom.
The thief followed the Carpenter...that day.

The resurrection is a different event...and targeted a need of His followers.
They would not believe in the next life...unless they could see it.
They would not believe until they could touch it.

His ascension should make it obvious...the kingdom is not of this world.
(His body went where?...and you think you will follow?
See any resurrection around you?)

If you are waiting in your grave for this world to be restored....
you wait for nothing.

 

[9Westy9]

A better question would be. Why does God care if we get baptised or not? If he's truly loving then salvation should be based on our actions rather than our beliefs

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Nay....
the kingdom is not of this earth...not of this world.
Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom.
The thief did ask to be remembered when the Carpenter receives His kingdom.
The thief followed the Carpenter...that day.
The resurrection is a different event...and targeted a need of His followers.
They would not believe in the next life...unless they could see it.
They would not believe until they could touch it.
His ascension should make it obvious...the kingdom is not of this world.
(His body went where?...and you think you will follow?
See any resurrection around you?)
If you are waiting in your grave for this world to be restored....
you wait for nothing.

If the thief followed the Carpenter [aka Jesus] that day,
then 'that day' they both went to hell. Went to hell because Jesus went to hell the day he died according to Acts 2 vs27,31; Psalm 16v10

Jesus 'BROTHERS' of 1st Cor [15v50] and Matthew [25v40] are the ones that go to heaven to inherit the kingdom of God. They are resurrected as Jesus was resurrected in spirit form. They are part of the first or earlier resurrection of Rev. 20v6; 14v4; 5vs9,10

What does John [3v13] say ?
Where is David according to Acts 2v34; 13v36 ?
Where is John the Baptist according to Matthew 11v11 ?

Where are 'Jesus subjects' according to Psalm 72v8 ?
Those serving with Jesus 'are Not subjects' but heavenly kings. -Rev 5vs9,10.
Where are the nations according to Rev 22v2?
What promise did those of Hebrews [11vs13,39] Not receive?
Genesis 22vs17,18; 12v3

 

[URAVIP2ME]

A better question would be. Why does God care if we get baptised or not? If he's truly loving then salvation should be based on our actions rather than our beliefs

Good point about having actions because Jesus did give us the excellent example of the neighborly good Samaritan showing us to use love of neighbor in order to widen out in love for another even if a stranger in need.

The 'majority of mankind' [John 3v13] have lived and died without ever being baptized. That does not mean they are not 'saved' because death frees or acquits from sin according to Romans 6 vs7,23. That does not mean now innocent, but like a Judge can save or pardon a person so the crime [sin] charges no longer stick.

Still a person can not resurrect oneself or another that is why we need someone that can do that for us. Jesus can and he will.

Some [baptized ones] are resurrected to heaven to serve as being a king along side of Christ, and also serve as a priest along with Christ.
Rev 5vs9,10 Others are earthly subjects of God's kingdom. Psalm 72v8.

Except for those of Matthew [12v32] and Hebrews [6vs4-6], the majority of mankind will be resurrected. Some resurrected to heaven [Rev 20v6].
Most resurrected on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth.
Jesus ransom covers [saves] 'many' according to Matthew 20v28.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

A common misunderstanding...yeah...but not mine.
His disciples baptized with water...but He did not.
His Baptism is of fire...of spirit.
Two of His disciples came asking position in the kingdom.
And He spoke of His baptism.
It is not of water.
Water rituals do not save.

Water baptism [after repentance] according to 1st Peter [3vs20,21] is for a clean or good conscience before God.
The one that endures to the end is the one that is saved. Matt 24v13.
Endure til one's death or endure til the time of separation of Matt 25vs31,32.

Baptism with fire [Matt 3vs7,8,11; Luke 3vs16,17] was for those [you people] such as the Pharisees and Sadducees. John foretold there would a division
[Matt 3v12 fruitless tree] that was not a blessing, nor a reward, but like the tree that did not produce [Matt 3v10; Luke 3v9] be destroyed.

Fire representing a destructive force.
-2nd Thess 1vs8,9; Jude 7; 2nd Peter 3vs7,10.

Using fire as a symbol for destruction, Jesus foretold execution of the wicked. [Luke 17 vs29,30; Matt 13 vs49,50]

Baptism into Jesus death was separate from his water baptism.
At water baptism Jesus received holy spirit after baptism.
Jesus was later 'baptized fully' when he was 'plunged' into his death.
God completed that 'baptism of death' by resurrecting Jesus.- Acts 2v32.
Water baptism was at the beginning or start of Jesus ministry.
Baptism into death was at the end of Jesus ministry.
Mark 10v39; Romans 6v3

Jesus 'brothers' [1st Cor 15v50;Matt 25v40] are the ones that have heavenly positions being part of the first or earlier resurrection to heaven.
Rev 20v6; Phil. 3vs10,11; Romans 6vs3-5; 1st Cor 15vs53,54

 

[URAVIP2ME]

(or watching you get baptized for the forgiveness of your sins-Acts 2:38), well that's good 'too'.
P.S. - Not sure about your ascending to heaven point, but didn't Elijah get taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot?

Please notice at Acts [2v38] that Peter was 'now' pointing out something 'new' in connection to John's baptism.
New in that now both repent and baptism 'in Jesus name' was now necessary. More than John's baptism was now required.
In other words, now get baptized 'in the name of Jesus' for the remission or forgiveness of sins.
'In Jesus name' because it is the 'blood of Jesus' that cleanses us from sin.
see: 1st John 1v7.

Baptism, according to 1st Peter [3vs18-21],
gives a clean conscience before God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Elijah:

First of all, wouldn't Elijah be one of those that Jesus mentioned that did Not ascend to heaven at John 3v13 ?

Please see 2nd Chron 21vs12-15

Elijah ascended into the mid heavens [where the birds fly] 2nd Kings 2v11
Meaning that windstorm carried Elijah away from Elisha's sight.
In other words, it moved Elijah from one place to another without dying.
Five years later Elijah was still alive serving as a prophet to King Jehoram.
If Elijah had died in that earlier whirlwind storm he would not have been alive five year later.

 

[e.r.m.]

A common misunderstanding...yeah...but not mine.
His disciples baptized with water...but He did not.

His Baptism is of fire...of spirit.
Two of His disciples came asking position in the kingdom.
And He spoke of His baptism.

It is not of water.
Water rituals do not save.

Jehovah witness make a casual reference to not "seeing" literally, but with the heart or something and then generalize that we will not literally see Jesus return with our eyes. (Am I right Jehovah Witnesses?) You are doing the same thing. Finding an example of a baptism by fire, and then indiscriminantly saying it applies to ALL references of baptism in Jesus's name, a broad sweep. Very bad exegesis. Also see how it doesn't fit. Peter did not in Acts 2:38 command everyone to be baptized by fire, that only Jesus can do to us. It is not an instruction that the people can obey. They were instructed to be baptized in water.
Although you might, funny that no Bible author ever calls baptism in Jesus's name a water ritual. God saves those who believe and are baptized, according to the Bible in Jesus's name for forgiveness of sins-Acts 2:38.

 

[e.r.m.]

Please notice at Acts [2v38] that Peter was 'now' pointing out something 'new' in connection to John's baptism.
New in that now both repent and baptism 'in Jesus name' was now necessary. More than John's baptism was now required.
In other words, now get baptized 'in the name of Jesus' for the remission or forgiveness of sins.
'In Jesus name' because it is the 'blood of Jesus' that cleanses us from sin.
see: 1st John 1v7.

Baptism, according to 1st Peter [3vs18-21],
gives a clean conscience before God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Elijah:

First of all, wouldn't Elijah be one of those that Jesus mentioned that did Not ascend to heaven at John 3v13 ?

Please see 2nd Chron 21vs12-15

Elijah ascended into the mid heavens [where the birds fly] 2nd Kings 2v11
Meaning that windstorm carried Elijah away from Elisha's sight.
In other words, it moved Elijah from one place to another without dying.
Five years later Elijah was still alive serving as a prophet to King Jehoram.
If Elijah had died in that earlier whirlwind storm he would not have been alive five year later.

Thanks for the backup on the baptism by fire.
Acts 2:38 says what it says and means what it says.

1 Peter 3:21 Says BOTH conscience AND saves. I've never seen a protestant put equal emphasis on both parts of this scripture. (Head shaking), lol. In addition, look at the consistency. Mark 16:16-Peter was there and reflected his understanding of Jesus's words with Acts 2:38, and then later stated 1 Peter 3:21. After these three, for Peter to then say, "No baptism has nothing to do with forgiveness of sins or your salvation" would be ridiculous.

 

[waitasec]

exception for what exactly? the thief on the cross hurled insults at jesus in the gospel of mark...

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1st John [1v7 B] says it's the 'blood' of Jesus that cleanses us from all sin.

Romans [3v25] God has set forth to be a propitiation though 'faith in his blood' to declare his righteousness of the forgiveness of sins that are past.....

Ephesians [1v7] By means of him we have the release or redemption 'through the blood' of Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins.....

Hebrews [9v14] How much more will the 'blood' of Christ.... offered himself to God....cleanse of consciences from dead works...

Revelation [1v5 B] and loosed or washed us from our sins in his own' blood.'

So Peter [Acts 2v38] was saying or stressing NOW baptized in the 'name of Jesus'
In the name of Jesus for forgiveness because as Matthew [26v28] says that it's
....Jesus 'blood'...shed for many for forgiveness of sins.