A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
All quotes above from the online LSJ lexicon at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu. A direct link to the word is hopelessly long.
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(correct me if I'm wrong but...) This seems circular to me; it seems to me as if you're saying that since it's become accepted practice among modern scholars to translate the concept of the logos as "Word of God" that citing instances outside of John where this translation has been used by modern scholars somehow verifies the notion that the ancients saw "word" and "Logos" as synonomis also.
As far as the other citations you offered (and I thank you for the effort), I don't speak greek so I'm not sure what to do with those (not saying your examples don't address the point, just saying I have no way to accertain for myself whether they do or not).
Could you dumb it down a bit?
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
No, what I am saying is that there is proof that the Greek word "logos" was commonly used to mean "word."
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Ok, basically the guys who wrote LSJ, the premier Greek-English dictionary, read all Greek literature and classified how each word was used. Their findings prove that the word logos was used before John to mean "word," among many other meanings.
The specific meaning for logos in John is paralleled by similar usages in other literature in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which we know that John was familiar with, as well as other first century authors.
The specific meaning for logos in John is paralleled by similar usages in other literature in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which we know that John was familiar with, as well as other first century authors.
OK. I'll need some time to simplify it.
I'll provide a few texts and translations later - I don't think I'll have time until Monday afternoon.
Lol! No hurry my friend
I'm guessing it would take me longer than that to teach myself ancient Greek
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Here's an example from the New Testament:
I have highlighted the Greek and Enlgish in blue. It is transliterated "tous logous."
ESV Matthew 7:24 "Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
I have highlighted the Greek and Enlgish in blue. It is transliterated "tous logous."
BNT Matthew 7:24 Pa/j ou=n o[stij avkou,ei mou tou.j lo,gouj tou,touj kai. poiei/ auvtou,j( o`moiwqh,setai avndri. froni,mw|( o[stij wv|kodo,mhsen auvtou/ th.n oivki,an evpi. th.n pe,tran\
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
ESV Matthew 8:8 But the centurion replied, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed.
Here is an example with the verb and noun of the same word. The phrase is transliterated, "alla monon eipe logo." Eipe is the verb form of lego, from which we get the word logos. The logos is the thing spoken in this phrase.
BNT Matthew 8:8 kai. avpokriqei.j o` e`kato,ntarcoj e;fh\ ku,rie( ouvk eivmi. i`kano.j i[na mou u`po. th.n ste,ghn eivse,lqh|j( avlla. mo,non eivpe. lo,gw|( kai. ivaqh,setai o` pai/j mouÅ
I see you're point (and it's obvious to me that you've looked into this much more extensively than I have) but it still seems more logical to me to assume that the author of John was using the term "Logos" in the context that I gave.
I've looked into this issue to a fair extent and the closest approximation to "word" as a common usage for Logos that I've ever been able to find was "speech". So, while I'm willing to retract (in light of your examples) my ascertation that it was unknown, I'm still of the opinion that it must have been a relatively obscure application, and one not particularly suited to the concept that the author of John was trying to convey.
The relevance of all this, in my opinion, is that the use of "word" to signify Logos in John 1, while it my not be a mistranslation, is an extremely poor and misleading one in comparrison to practically any other option the translators could have chosen.
And (again my opinion) I think it was mean't to be misleading.
I'll expand on this if you like.
How are we supposed to know if there are translation errors if we don't have any original manuscripts to compare it against?
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
A translation error is the misrepresentation of a text.
A textual error is the chosing of an incorrect or unreliable text.
Textual criticism is the process by which a text is chosen, and the process of textual criticism has been around since classical times (that is, since 400BCE or so). Students in ancient Greece and Rome were taught not only how to read, but how to choose the best edition of a text. Before the printing press, students were taught how to determine what the author most likely wrote in light of several transcription choices.
When we deal with the New Testament, we are dealing with transcriptions from the era before the printing press, and we have to go through a similar process of comparing texts and desciding which reading best suits the author.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
While I think that logos in John 1 is a metaphor for something, it would be incorrect to translate it as anything but "word." We render it as it is in Greek, and then the reader can determine for herself what the metaphor for "word" is.
Any translation other than "word" in John 1.1 would force the translator's interpretation of "Logos" rather than rendering the Greek in a responsible manner.
The variations in the Greek dictionary for "logos" deal mainly with:
Who "speaks" the "word." When kings and senates speak, their "logos" are not mere "words," but are translated "laws" and "statutes." That's not an interpretation, but it's what it is. When a king spoke in ancient times, he spoke the law. When philosophers speak, they produce sylogisms. When God speaks, it is prophesy.
McBell
Unbound
Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Albert Barne's Notess on the Bible:
Albert Barne's Notess on the Bible:
Mat 23:24 -
Which strain at a gnat ... - This is a proverb. There is, however, a mistranslation or misprint here, which makes the verse unmeaning. To strain at a gnat conveys no sense. It should have been to strain out a gnat; and so it is printed in some of the earlier versions, and so it was undoubtedly rendered by the translators. The common reading is a misprint, and should be corrected. The Greek means to strain out by a cloth or sieve.
Which strain at a gnat ... - This is a proverb. There is, however, a mistranslation or misprint here, which makes the verse unmeaning. To strain at a gnat conveys no sense. It should have been to strain out a gnat; and so it is printed in some of the earlier versions, and so it was undoubtedly rendered by the translators. The common reading is a misprint, and should be corrected. The Greek means to strain out by a cloth or sieve.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
Another reason to use the ESV!
ESV Matthew 23:24 You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
diu?li,zw filter out, strain out Mt 23:24.*
McBell
Unbound
Is that the kind of thing you had in mind when you created the thread?
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angellous_evangellous
Guest
Sort of. The one about straining gnats is pretty basic, though. It is more about English grammar than translation from the Greek, and it has no impact on Christian theology or ethics.
I simply wanted to have a thread where we could discuss alleged translation errors so we don't take other threads off-topic.
A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
LMAO! What translation is that?! [edit: I now see that it's the King James version... sheesh]
The Greek word rendered Easter in that translation is paska:
pa,sca
, to, indecl. the Passover—1. a Jewish festival Mt 26:2; Mk 14:1; Lk 2:41; 22:1; J 2:13, 23; 6:4; 11:55; 12:1; 13:1; 18:39; 19:14; Ac 12:4.—2. the Paschal lamb Mt 26:17; Mk 14:12, 14; Lk 22:7, 11, 15; J 18:28. Fig. 1 Cor 5:7.—3. the Passover meal Mt 26:18f; Mk 14:16; Lk 22:8, 13; Hb 11:28.* [paschal] [pg 153]
McBell
Unbound
King James Version.
Here is the same verse in a few other translations:
(Bishops)
And when he had caught hym, he put hym in pryson also, and delyuered hym to foure quaternions of souldiers to be kept, intendyng after Easter to bryng hym foorth to the people.
(CEV)
He put Peter in jail and ordered four squads of soldiers to guard him. Herod planned to put him on trial in public after the festival.
(DRB)
And when he had apprehended him, he cast him into prison, delivering him to four files of soldiers, to be kept, intending, after the pasch, to bring him forth to the people.
the other sixteen versions I have ready access to all have the word Passover.And when he had caught hym, he put hym in pryson also, and delyuered hym to foure quaternions of souldiers to be kept, intendyng after Easter to bryng hym foorth to the people.
(CEV)
He put Peter in jail and ordered four squads of soldiers to guard him. Herod planned to put him on trial in public after the festival.
(DRB)
And when he had apprehended him, he cast him into prison, delivering him to four files of soldiers, to be kept, intending, after the pasch, to bring him forth to the people.
Interestingly enough, The Modern King James is one of them.
FFH
Veteran Member
1 Corithians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption;Angellous said:
~ Joseph Smith Inspired Version ~
John 1:1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.Angelous said:
~ Joseph Smith Inspired Version ~