The Trinity in the OT (my belief)

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Son is the agent though whom God does all things, John 1:2-3, John 5:19, John 14:6.

With the Persons, God, Christ and the Spirit Himself, each have their own spirit, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16, as distinct Persons are nevertheless the one Spirit as God, John 4:24.

Romans 8:16 says "THE spirit bears witness". THE spirit means ONE spirit. the one spirit of God. I see nothing that says the Father has a spirit and the Son has a spirit and the Spirit has a spirit. God is one spirit.

 

[Norman Beall]

Romans 8:16 says "THE spirit bears witness". THE spirit means ONE spirit. the one spirit of God. I see nothing that says the Father has a spirit and the Son has a spirit and the Spirit has a spirit. God is one spirit.

The act of mother nature that animates matter is called the holy spirit. It is what God calls his glory.

The reason it is written that none fulfill the glory of God, is due to the fact that without the act of mother nature that animates matter, without the holy spirit, neither you nor i nor God would be alive.

 

[LightofTruth]

We see the Trinity already in the first three verses of the Bible. (Genesis 1:1-3)

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. FATHER, Yahweh
2. And the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. HOLY SPIRIT, the Breath
3. And God spoke: Let there be light. And it was light. SON, the spoken Word

Psalms 33:6-9
Through the Word of Yahweh were the heavens made, and all their host through the breath of his mouth. For he spoke, and it was.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my Word be that goes out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall do that which I please, and it shall carry out that for which I have sent it.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 6:38
For I have came down from heaven, not to do my will, but the will of him who sent me.

May I suggest you allow yourself to be informed by the Scripture rather than starting from a premise.

 

[blü 2]

We see the Trinity already in the first three verses of the Bible. (Genesis 1:1-3)

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. FATHER, Yahweh
2. And the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. HOLY SPIRIT, the Breath
3. And God spoke: Let there be light. And it was light. SON, the spoken Word

Nope. That's Christian theology. The God of Israel is not a Trinitarian god ─ indeed the Christian god didn't become Trinitarian till the 4th century CE, as a result of political pressure that demanded Jesus be elevated to God status while pretending to maintain monotheism. Trinitarianism as a monotheistic claim is incoherent ─ the churches themselves say so ─ and actually results in three gods. (Many onlookers think Satan and certain versions of Mary are treated as having god status as well.)

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
John 6:38
For I have came down from heaven, not to do my will, but the will of him who sent me.

As your second quote shows, the Jesus of John is not God . Instead he's an associate of God who pre-existed in heaven with God and who in his role as demiurge ('craftsman') made the material universe. Those are gnostic teachings with which Paul agrees, and the authors of Mark, Matthew and Luke don't.

(The Jesuses of Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John each say they're not God and never claim to be God. The Jesus of John denies he's God on more occasions than the other four.)

 

[Teritos]

God spoke - and that was His son??? I am afraid having a son involves a lot more than speaking.

The Word of God became the Son of God when it became man.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, a glory as of an only from the Father full of grace and truth.

 

[firedragon]

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. FATHER, Yahweh
2. And the Spirit of God hovered over the waters. HOLY SPIRIT, the Breath
3. And God spoke: Let there be light. And it was light. SON, the spoken Word

But see, the son does not become a "word' until the 2nd century AD.

Thus when God created the universe so many years ago (6000 is it?) he didnt fare to mention the son was his word and that when ever he spoke it was his son coming out of his mouth, and it stayed a secret until some anonymous author comes in the 2nd century CE and says something that alludes to it?

Amazing theology.

 

[rational experiences]

The NT says it also. God speaks, and the spoken Word does whatever God wants.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall my Word be that goes out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall do that which I please, and it shall carry out that for which I have sent it.

The Old testimonials, were the word.

Meaning it was not written it was vocalised as a story passed down through the ages about how a satanist brother meaning human destroyed all life on Earth a long time ago.

The thesis God.

The new testimonials written as the old sciences had been re established. The temple science buildings re built as was the destroyed pyramids used in the sciences.

To apply the method science, old science had been perused and re established and practiced.

The new Testimonials written after the fact of new life attack. Genesis Exodus, did not need to re write what had gone before, cell health and human DNA removed. For it had only just returned to living as newly born DNA baby life, re sacrificed as consciousness of the scientist self destructive human Father had returned also.

Just as it said.

So the theory was re written correlating with a new testimony that proved that did it before and they had done it again sacrificed the new born healed baby returned life. Just as after the ice age the first man science baby self Father had applied the wisdom he re sought about science before the dinosaur giant life ruled the Earth.

Fact man human invented all references terms thought as a bio consciousness as science.

Science and human self never owned the Universe or the planet formation....the only lie and coercion that they still lie and coerce about today.

 

[Tumah]

The OT says that through the Word all things were created, the NT says it also. Where's the problem?
The greek word Logos is the same word as Dabar, just in another language.

No it is not. The Logos is a Greek concept first connect to Jewish Scriptures by the Hellenized Jew Philo a few years before the NT was written. The word dabar means "thing/word" and nothing more.
That's why the verse in Psalm 33 doesn't come with a definite article. It doesn't say "the word of G-d" - it's not referring to some specific entity, it's simply talking about the things G-d speaks.

 

[Kenny]

You are still seeing this through a Christian lens. The 'word' here is not a being. Your translation is also incredibly biased, giving 'word' a capital w.

I don't think it is biased in as much as it was a Jewish person who wrote the book o John. It actually is a being because "The Word was made flesh"--a being.

 

[Tumah]

It seems that the words God speaks are manifested as a person, for in Isaiah 55:11 his spoken words are personified as the Word which is sent and do what God wants. The word that comes out of his mouth acts as a person. The person is God Himself, because it came out of his breath. That is why John 1:1 says the Word was with God and was God.
The words I speak are also myself. My own Word is me, it comes out of my spirit.

There is nothing in Isa. 55:11 that forces the conclusion that G-d's words manifest as a person.

Perhaps G-d's words manifest as angels who do G-d's bidding?

 

[Tumah]

I don't think it is biased in as much as it was a Jewish person who wrote the book o John. It actually is a being because "The Word was made flesh"--a being.

That's a ridiculous argument. Being Jewish does not preclude someone from non-Scriptural biases.
We know that the first person who came up with the idea of the Logos being connected to G-d's Word was a Hellenized Jew named Philo. A Jew with Greek biases, exactly as @Rival is describing.

 

[Rival]

I don't think it is biased in as much as it was a Jewish person who wrote the book o John. It actually is a being because "The Word was made flesh"--a being.

A Jewish person also wrote The Communist Manifesto. Who cares.

 

[firedragon]

Psalm 33 says this, in my translation: For He said and it came about; He commanded and it endured.

KJV has 'spake'.

'Word or 'Logos' is a Greek concept you will find nowhere in Tanakh unless you are already a Christian and looking to reinterpret verses that have nothing to do with a foreign Greek philosophy.

I think this is from the older NIV. I am not 100% sure.

My translation says "By the words of the LORD were the heavens made; And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth". - THE JEWISH PUBLICATION SOCIETY OF AMERICA

I think it uses Dabar and Ruah. Of course I have no expertise in the language but doesnt it seem to be the correct rendition?

 

[firedragon]

I don't think it is biased in as much as it was a Jewish person who wrote the book o John. It actually is a being because "The Word was made flesh"--a being.

No one knows who wrote it. Especially the Prologue which especially cloven even from the rest of the book.

 

[Rival]

I am really starting to hate any and all translations. I'd rather read Hebrew words I can pronounce but don't understand and I'm almost sure I'd learn more at this rate. I really hate this debate. I really hate it.

 

[Tumah]

I think this is from the older NIV. I am not 100% sure.

My translation says "By the words of the LORD were the heavens made; And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth". - THE JEWISH PUBLICATION SOCIETY OF AMERICA

I think it uses Dabar and Ruah. Of course I have no expertise in the language but doesnt it seem to be the correct rendition?

You are quoting verse 6 and she is quoting verse 9.

 

[Teritos]

No it is not. The Logos is a Greek concept first connect to Jewish Scriptures by the Hellenized Jew Philo a few years before the NT was written. The word dabar means "thing/word" and nothing more.
That's why the verse in Psalm 33 doesn't come with a definite article. It doesn't say "the word of G-d" - it's not referring to some specific entity, it's simply talking about the things G-d speaks.

Logos means also "word". It's the greek translation of Dabar.
Logos just means "what someone says", the same as Dabar. There is no difference between both.

 

[firedragon]

You are quoting verse 6 and she is quoting verse 9.

Sure. I was not comparing Tumah. I was just clarifying because she is Jewish and may know the language far better than me.

 

[Teritos]

Perhaps G-d's words manifest as angels who do G-d's bidding?

The ANGEL OF THE LORD in the OT is sometimes God himself. When he visited Abraham with two angels, when he fought against Jacob and when he said to Moses "I AM", this ANGEL was God himself. The Word of God isn't a created angel, the Word of God is the spoken Word of God.

 

[Tumah]

Logos means also "word". It's the greek translation of Dabar.
Logos just means "what someone says", the same as Dabar. There is no difference between both.

Logos does mean word, but that's not what you mean when you speak about the Greek/Christian concept of the Logos.