The Trinity in the OT (my belief)

[37818]

No. Lord is a title. Christians call the spirit lord/god/holy one/father/and so forth. Lord isn't a person-i.e. Lord Henry and Lord of the Rings.

It's like saying 37818's spirit. That doesn't mean you're separate from your spirit-you Are spirit-we just call you 37818. There's no separate person: spirit/god/holy spirit.

Lord is a title. Holy is an adjective. Christ is a human. The creator is a spirit.

You call the spirit god, because you worship him. You call him holy, because of his nature. You call him christ, because of his incarnation. You call him lord because he's worthy of that title.

How you address the creator (by your language) is based on the context and usage of the word. Your usage (and biblical translation) doesn't make it three different people. Christianity is said to be monotheist religion. So, you can't have one god/spirit, one god/christ, and one god/creator. Just one creator not three.

Lord in the New Testament can either refer to the very Name (Yahweh, Jehovah) of God, as in Romans 10:13. Or Lord the position of authority as the Lord of lords, Revelation 17:10, Psalms 110:1. It is not just a mere title. Jesus is both Christ and Lord, Acts 2:36. So where in the written word of God is the Holy Spirit addressed as Lord? As God an identity in Acts 5:4.

 

[37818]

John 1:10 refers to the creator not his incarnation (through christ not by christ)
The last two verses read as repeats.

Most Christians, I for one, understand John 1:10 to refer to His incarnation, ". . . He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. . . ." The world is understood by many Christians to refer to mankind, John 3:16. He was in mankind as a man.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Lord in the New Testament can either refer to the very Name (Yahweh, Jehovah) of God, as in Romans 10:13. Or Lord the position of authority as the Lord of lords, Revelation 17:10, Psalms 110:1. It is not just a mere title. Jesus is both Christ and Lord, Acts 2:36. So where in the written word of God is the Holy Spirit addressed as Lord? As God an identity in Acts 5:4.

"Refer to" and "addressed as" signifies a title not a name. Yahweh is a name. Lord is a title and you refer to Yahweh as lord because he is worthy of that title.

You wouldn't say he's "Yahweh of Yahweh" (see the difference?)

I didn't say "mere". Lord, by definition, is a very strong word people give to kings, people of worship, and so forth. How much emphasis a person puts on the word lord is dependent on that person's religion.

You're "addressed or referred to as "37818" but if I want to call you personally, I wouldn't use your avatar (or title), I'd use your real name.

or.

The creator is "addressed or referred to as "lord," but if I want to call him personally, I wouldn't use his title but his real name: Yahweh.

See the difference?

 

[37818]

But why does it have to be three persons? John 4:24 says God IS a spirit. Not God HAS a spirit. If God IS a spirit there is no need for a thrird person spirit. Just a Father and a Son sharing one spirit that is God.

The Spirit is referred to as a distinct person, Romans 8:16, John 16:8, 1 Corinthians 12:11, Matthew 28:19, Luke 3:22.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Most Christians, I for one, understand John 1:10 to refer to His incarnation, ". . . He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. . . ." The world is understood by many Christians to refer to mankind, John 3:16. He was in mankind as a man.

But the bible doesn't read christ created anything. He flat out rejected being called anything that equates to his father. It's interesting why the bible would use "word." Word usually refers to something written or an oral statement for lack of better words. You can even say word applies to god's laws.

If I played devil's advocate for a bit, I'd say it's actually beautiful that the creator would make his laws incarnate so people would actually have a relationship with the sum of these laws (love neighbor and love god) through christ's sacrifice and redemption. Then having a relationship with god "through/by" these laws of redemption?

Unfortunately, I don't know which christian to believe so I just stick with what I understand from the bible at the time I remember it. A lot of things are pretty direct. "Don't look to me, but to my father who sent me" is a pretty direct statement.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Spirit is referred to as a distinct person, Romans 8:16, John 16:8, 1 Corinthians 12:11, Matthew 28:19, Luke 3:22.

The only verses that kinda support you is Romans 8:16 and possibly Luke 3:22.

However, since you didn't give context, it looks like the spirit spoken of is god. Luke, that's god speaking.

It looks like the bible is using different terms (Lord, Spirit, Ghost, God, Father) to talk of the same person doing and saying things for the well-being of those who believe in him.

 

[37818]

You wouldn't say he's "Yahweh of Yahweh" (see the difference?)

No. There is only One Yahweh.
And the text refers to Lord of Lords (plural). Deuteronomy 10:17, "For the LORD [the Name] your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: . . ."
1 Corinthians 8:5-6, "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Ephesians 4:4-6, ". . . one Spirit . . . One Lord . . . One God and Father of all, . . ." They are distinct as Persons.

 

[37818]

But the bible doesn't read christ created anything.

LOL. Ephesians 3:9, ". . . God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: . . ." Colossians 1:15-17, ". . . Who is the image of the invisible God, . . . For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. . . ."
Hebrews 1:3, ". . . Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . . ."

 

[37818]

The only verses that kinda support you is Romans 8:16 and possibly Luke 3:22.

However, since you didn't give context, it looks like the spirit spoken of is god. Luke, that's god speaking.

It looks like the bible is using different terms (Lord, Spirit, Ghost, God, Father) to talk of the same person doing and saying things for the well-being of those who believe in him.

We have a different understanding on this matter. You are at liberity to believe as you do. Personally, for me, I see no other choice but to understand the One God who is not parts. That those three distinct Persons are that One and the same God, (by the Name, The LORD, Jehovah, Yahweh, Who Is, Self Existent One).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No. There is only One Yahweh.
And the text refers to Lord of Lords (plural). Deuteronomy 10:17, "For the LORD [the Name] your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: . . ."
1 Corinthians 8:5-6, "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Ephesians 4:4-6, ". . . one Spirit . . . One Lord . . . One God and Father of all, . . ." They are distinct as Persons.

Please read my post again: Lord is a title. You can say Lord of Lords but you can't say Yahwehs of Yahwehs.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So you're saying christ is a creator? He lied to his disciplines or giving them mixed messages?

LOL. Ephesians 3:9, ". . . God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: . . ." Colossians 1:15-17, ". . . Who is the image of the invisible God, . . . For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. . . ."

God who created all things "by" jesus. Jesus did nothing. God was the source.

If you're driving a car, you don't say the car drove you to town. It does nothing on its own. You say, Jane went into town "by" using her car.

Through him not for him (different translation?)

Why do you miss the purpose of the prepositions?

Hebrews 1:3, ". . . Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . . ."

"image of" is not IS.

Where does it say jesus changed his mind and equated himself to the father?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We have a different understanding on this matter. You are at liberity to believe as you do. Personally, for me, I see no other choice but to understand the One God who is not parts. That those three distinct Persons are that One and the same God, (by the Name, The LORD, Jehovah, Yahweh, Who Is, Self Existent One).

I read this and it looks like mixed messages:

but to understand the One God who is not parts.

This is basically the whole bible OT and NT.

"That those three distinct Person" (But you said there were no parts? What do you mean by parts?)

Lord is a title (per strict definition): lord of the rings; lord henry. You can use it as a name. People will understand you. Strict definition, it is not a name. I guess you can use it as a "proper pronoun." (Point by context)

You can "use lord" as a name (english is flexible). It is not a name in itself. Just as your avatar is not you, but I can refer to you or address you by your avatar.

"'Self-Existent' One" sounds like an adjective to describe the noun (Yahweh).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

By/Through relates to ideas together not equate them as each other.

Here are some other examples:

1. I can address you by your user name; you are not your username.

2. God, who created all things by Jesus Christ (I drove to town by car; the car didn't drive itself)

3. All things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (I created a painting by using a paint brush. You can say the "paint brush did the painting" but no one would believe you if you actually believed the paint brushed painted all by itself- it has a source of motion (it's a tool).

The OT has always been about one god not christ and not a separate spirit. That's like spitting in the jews faces (nonetheless jesus himself).

 

[37818]

New So you're saying christ is a creator? He lied to his disciplines or giving them mixed messages?

What you are not understanding is that Christ is both not God and God. Being that He is the incarnate Word, John 1:14. The Word was both with the God, that is, not being the God and was God, John 1:1, and is the agent of all creation, John 1:2-3. John 1:3, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Referring to the Word.

 

[37818]

"That those three distinct Person" (But you said there were no parts? What do you mean by parts?)

Does the word person mean God? God does not have parts. The Persons are not different gods. They are not parts of God. They are that One God. It is a concept to be accepted. One God three distinct Persons.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What you are not understanding is that Christ is both not God and God.

Huh? Both not god and god?

You also said there are no parts but then divide the creator into parts?

What you are not understanding is that Christ is both not God and God. Being that He is the incarnate Word, John 1:14. The Word was both with the God, that is, not being the God and was God, John 1:1, and is the agent of all creation, John 1:2-3. John 1:3, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Referring to the Word.

Word (god's law of redemption) was with the creator. Christ is the human incarnation of that law. So, its a play on words.

It's like this:

1. Creator said set an oral law (his Word) to people in the OT
2. People didn't listen. They died because of it.
3. Creator thought "hey! I have an idea, let's make this law of sacrifice and redemption incarnate
4. Poof! Law becomes incarnate (flesh) jesus christ
5. Creator says "now he can walk among the people so people will believe in him therefore believe in me (creator)
6. So christ (incarnation of the word) is one with the creator insofar that it is not speaking of christ the person but the incarnation of god's edicts and instruction.

My example of the car again:

The car (christ) doesn't drive itself into town. I (god) drive the car into town.

The car is driven "by" me to go into town; aka, christ is sent by the creator for other people's salvation.

Do you get the comparison?

The car is not me and jesus isn't the creator.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What you are not understanding is that Christ is both not God and God. Being that He is the incarnate Word, John 1:14. The Word was both with the God, that is, not being the God and was God, John 1:1, and is the agent of all creation, John 1:2-3. John 1:3, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Referring to the Word.

I want to take the time to write a full post and see if you understand where I'm coming from. Do you mind reading the whole thing before I take time to write it out?

 

[37818]

Where does it say jesus changed his mind and equated himself to the father?

The prophecy, Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

He the Son is not the Father nor is the Father the Son. BUT . . .
John 14:6, ". . . no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
John 14:9, ". . . he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; . . . "
1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Colossians 1:15, ". . . Who is the image of the invisible God, . . ."

John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Genesis 12:7, "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . ."
John 8:56, ". . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."

 

[37818]

I want to take the time to write a full post and see if you understand where I'm coming from. Do you mind reading the whole thing before I take time to write it out?

OK. You can give me a step by step explanation how you understand your view. I will read it. Quote this here and present your view. Thanks.

 

[37818]

Huh? Both not god and god?

Being with some one else is not being that person.
Now God made Moses to represent Himself to Pharaoh, Exodus 7:1.
Now God has His agent the Word do His work, John 1:1-3. (John 5:19)
So what Moses was made to Pharaoh, the Word is literally to be to all creation as the Creator. The Word is someone other than God and God too. Literally.

Do you get the comparison?

Yes. But I do not think that is a correct understanding. You do. OK.