The trinity is false - I have proof

[cataway]

John 14

not one thing promotes the Trinity in John 14 ,in fact its the opposite

 

[metis]

Do you remember what you studied and whether the information was in published form, as in a book, or was it designed specifically for your synagogue.

We worked from Torah directly, chapter by chapter, and then used multiple commentaries to help with understanding differing interpretations.

And curiously I do wonder why you left and went back to catholicism, if that's what you did.

It would take too long to explain but let me just say that it was sort of a "calling" based on "premonitions" [I know that sounds crazy] I had for almost 2 years. It was VERY far from easy and very traumatic for me.

I can only figure you wanted to see basically what Judaism was teaching.

No, it was more based on my studies that showed that Jesus could not be the Messiah if one took the Tanakh at the literalistic level. The irony is that I wasn't and still ain't a literalist, so I sort duped myself. However, I certainly have no problem going and davening there.

I am happy with what I have learned about Babylon the Great & false religion and God. I know this was a longer post than I usually write, so hope you have a good day.

"Babylon the Great" was a reference to the Roman Empire, and the feminine form of "Babylon" in 1Peter:5 is a refence to the city of Rome.

 

[cataway]

"Babylon the Great" was a reference to the Roman Empire, and the feminine form of "Babylon" in 1Peter:5 is a refence to the city of Rome.

no, Babylon the great is very much a product of today. she rides the governments of today prodding the beast to go the direction she wants it to go. one day the beast will turn on her ,even now it can be seen happening.

 

[cataway]

she is religion

 

[metis]

no, Babylon the great is very much a product of today. she rides the governments of today prodding the beast to go the direction she wants it to go. one day the beast will turn on her ,even now it can be seen happening.

What I posted was and is the interpterion during Jesus' time, but one could possibly apply it wherever they want in today's world.

 

[cataway]

What I posted was and is the interpterion during Jesus' time, but one could possibly apply it wherever they want in today's world.

ah but the term ''Babylon the great'' was not penned for a good number of years after Jesus walked the earth. from then its a future event

 

[metis]

ah but the term ''Babylon the great'' was not penned for a good number of years after Jesus walked the earth. from then its a future event

Believe what you want then, but it's logically a reference to the Roman Empire as a reflection of the Babylonian Exile of the Jewish people in the 5th century b.c.e.

 

[cataway]

the

Believe what you want then, but it's logically a reference to the Roman Empire as a reflection of the Babylonian Exile of the Jewish people in the 5th century b.c.e.

the Roman Empire is long gone ,yet ''Babylon the great'' remains ,bigger and stronger then it was . her destruction, comes from the anger of the beast . when that happens the beast will go to far . at that point ,expect a serious one sided war , Armageddon !

 

[Sargonski]

I believe what the Bible says. You should try it.

Why are you speaking with forked tongue ? .. you believe in what the snake charmers tell you about the Bible and not what the Bible Says -- The Trinity doctrine is man made word ... that you try to substitute for "The Word" of Lord Jesus .. the word from which you now run with deflection and name calling .. fleeing from the playground to avoid the "Bad Thought"

What does the Bible tell us about the God of Confusion .. and who is the Chief God over the Eearth as per the Scripture from the Bible given you Matt 4 .. Job 1 .. who is it that needs to try it ? .. I tried it and I liked it . .. how about you Brother Muffled ? why do you not want to even try it .. why do you run and hide from scripture

Look here and don't be shy nor ashamed

------------

8 Again, Ha Satan took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
- . ------------------------------------------

but Jesus refuses to worship the tester of souls . Chief God on earth ... Son of the Most High God .. unlike those who not only refuse .. but embrace the doctrine of the snake charmers ..

Who is the Chief God on earth . and which God is the author of confusion .. What does the Bible tell us !?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

John 14

I'm redirecting my previous response to Starlight's OP to you, Muffled, because she hasn't been seen on the forum for several weeks. I didn't realize that until I looked at her profile in order to find out what her religious beliefs are. I'm not sure if she will come back to RF or not. So, I decided to focus my response on your post because you only used John 14 as proof that the Bible teaches the Trinity. It does mention God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as evidenced by reading the entire chapter. However, there are other scriptures that also appear to support the doctrine of the Trinity.

What do you think of these verses?

2 Corinthians 13:14
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."

Romans 15:30
"I urge you, brothers and sisters, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.”

Jude 1:20-21
“But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

1 Peter 1:2
"Who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.”

Matthew 3:16-17
"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Matthew 28:18-20
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

1 Thessalonians 1:3-6
3 We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

In addition to these verses, I'm including this Christian apologetics source, which provides a plethora of other verses in the Bible in reference to the Trinity.

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?

I believed in the Trinity doctrine when I was a devout Christian, but I have since come to believe that it, like stories about Jesus, has pagan roots. I decided to reexamine it and conduct my own research to discover its true origins after reading some informative posts about it by another member. It's similar to how I decided to reject my Christian-indoctrinated beliefs about Satan and demonic entities after reading some informative posts by a Baháʼí member. As a former Christian, I now believe that the Trinity doctrine was copied and adapted from paganism, and I think that the two following articles explain why.

First article: Pagan Roots of the Trinity Doctrine

Second article: How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity

 

[learner Daniel]

Of course it is disagreement .. the will of Jesus is not the same as the will of the father = the definition of disagreement. however .. if you wish to say the will of the father is not the same as the Son ... its all the same.

What is sad is this disingenuous oblivion .. and those spaghetti on wall "Thought Stopping" posts. What was that all about friend ? cutting and pastig reams of material from snake charmer site .. stuff yourself you have not read .. and do not understand .. in Herculean effort to avoid the "Bad Thought"

What is the bad thought you are trying to avoid Daniel -- that Jesus and the Father are not one in thought at all times ? ... that the Trinity is man made dogma - and not scripturally valid .. .. not believed by the early Christians .. nor the disciples .. which means you don't get to use John .. written ~110 --- prior to the divinity of Jesus growing bigger to include pre-existence.

What part of "John doesn't count" do you not understand .. as this is not the original version of the Story .. nor does it represent the beliefs of the early Christians .. in particular The Church of Jerusalem .. where Jesus does not even claim to be a God .. never mind claiming to be "The Father" .. something which would have been preposterous nonsense on Steroids to an early believer .. The Messiah is not the Father .. and they would have stoned someone for claiming this. .. but that is not why Jesus was killed .. He was killed for claiming to be the Messiah = The King of the Jews. The annointed on of God = King ... hence the annointing .. like Cyrus .. like David ..

It was emotional plea, not disobedience.

 

[learner Daniel]

I believe the Trinity is not about turning Jesus into the Father although in a sense that does happen when the Spirit of God leaves Jesus on the cross and returns to being the Father albeit now the Father has a Jesus consciousness ie memory.

huh?

 

[learner Daniel]

Nooooo .. no .. nooooo Look -- you are trying to fit man made dogma into the mouth of Jesus .. rather than letting "the Word" speak. OK !?
Now read once more prior to continuing.

The first thing to understand about the Trinity doctrine is that there is nothing to understand .. the trinity is "beyond understanding" NOT - "beyond human understanding" beyond understanding Period .. . OK .. u understand ? that not even God understands the Trinity .. because the Trinity makes no sense .. is not understandable because it is illogical .. anti logic .. anti reason .. anti thought. .. Jesus is both God .. The Father .. but he is a separate person .. separate mind .. separate will and Not God The Father in such a way as that only polytheism - dualism - anything but monotheism can make sense of.

And this was the problem the Trinity is supposed to solve .. the Trinity was about turning Christianity into a monotheistic religion.

Part 2 - The Trinity is "Man made" .. u understand ? "Man Made" -- u understand .. "Man Made"

Part 2A - Man Made = Not God made. U understand ? "Not God Made" .. u understand "Not God Made"

Part 3 - Homoosios - if you do not understand this word .. and what it meant to the the 700 year old school of Platonic Philosophy - then you have absolutly no understanding of Trinity Doctrine .. u understand ? " you have no understanding of trinity doctrine" .. the doctrine which is not understandable .. u understand ?

Part 4 -- The Trinity Doctrine = Homoosios .. u understand ?? The Trinity Doctrine = Homoousios

U understand ? if you do not understand the above word in bold .. then you don't understand the un understandable trinity doctrine" - an abomination by the hand of man .. having absolutely nothing to do with the "The Word - The Truth - the Way" .. nothing to do with any of the teachings of Jesus ..

Part 5 - 700 year old school of platonic Philosophy .. U understand ? that after the invetion of the Trinity = Homoosios = Platonic Philosophy .. Those touting this nonsensical gibberish tore down the 700 yr old school .. plunging the world into a period of darkness .. not to be lifted for over 1000 years. .. U understand ?

Part 6 - u understand logic ? Trinity = 1000 years of darkness .. the end of an age of reason and rational thought ..

Part 7 - Who is the Chief God on Earth .. Job 1:1 Matt 4:1 ----- u understand .. The tester of souls .. the one who tests the "Son of Man" prior to acivation of the divinity shard = Chief God on Earth

U understand ? "Chief God on Earth" . Do you ? Yes/No -

Part 7A - Stop lying to yourself .. Do you understand "Chief God on Earth" Yes/No ?

Part 8 - Chief God on Earth = Not monotheism u understand ? .. or do you wish to tell us that Jesus and Satan are exactly the same emination from the Godhead .. which is just polytheism by a different gnostic name meant to blur the difference in any case

Part 9 - No understanding of the true meaning of the story of Jesus is possible through a monotheistic lens. Monotheism another man made doctrine that the demiurge and author of confusion tried to fit into the Bible .. having nothing to do with "The word - The Truth - The Way"

U understand ? === "Author of Confusion" === Part 7A --- who is the author of confustion .. according to Jesus ? and what is the purpose of this confusion ? U understand ? Part 7A - What is the purpose of this confusion ? = Trinity U understand Trinity = Confusion !

Now tell us the purpose of this confusion .. according to Jesus ? and who is the author of this confusion ?

Part 10 - how on earth are you ever going to understand anything in the Bible if you don't know who the author of confusion is ?

I have no problem understanding the definition given for the
Trinity.

 

[learner Daniel]

John L. McKenzie, S.J., a highly respected scholar and Catholic priest, ie. a trinitarian himself, in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are Gk (Greek) philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(Italics, underlining, & bold type are mine.) (New York, 1965), p. 899.

He was an honest scholar. He did not allow bias to color his objectivity.

The trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of "person" and "nature" which are Gk philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as "essence" and "substance" were erroneously applied to God by some theologians. ... Without an explicit formula the NT leaves no room to think that Jesus is Himself an object of the adoption which He communicates to others. He knows the Father and reveals Him. He therefore belongs to the divine level of being; and there is no question at all about the Spirit belonging to the divine level of being. What is less clear about the Spirit is His personal reality; often He is mentioned in language in which His personal reality is not explicit. (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)
The NT does not approach the metaphysical problem of subordination, as it approaches no metaphysical problem. It offers no room for a statement of the relations of Father, Son, and Spirit which would imply that one of them is more or less properly on the divine level of being than another. (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)
The OT does not contain suggestions or foreshadowing of the trinity of persons. What it does contain are the words which the NT employs to express the trinity of persons such as Father, Son, Word, Spirit, etc. A study of these words shows us how the revelation of God in the NT advances beyond the revelation of God in the OT. The same study of these words and their background is the best way to arrive at an understanding of the distinction of persons as it is stated in the NT." (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)

McKenzie, John L.: Dictionary of the Bible

 

[learner Daniel]

Full Text:

"Trinity. The trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of "person" and "nature" which are Gk philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as "essence" and "substance" were erroneously applied to God by some theologians. The ultimate affirmation of trinity of persons and unity of nature was declared by the Church to be the only correct way in which these terms could be used. The elements of the trinity of persons within the unity of nature in the Bible appear in the use of the terms Father*, Son*, and Spirit*. The personal reality of the Spirit emerged more slowly than the personal reality of Father and Son, which are personal terms. On the application of the name of Spirit to the Son in the Pauline writings Cf SPIRIT. The unity of nature does not appear as a problem in the Bible, and indeed could only arise when a philosophical investigation of the term nature as applied to God was begun. In the NT the Father is "the God" (Gk ho theos), and Jesus is "the Son of the God" (ho hyios tou theou). The Spirit is "the spirit of the God" or "the holy spirit," in this context a synonymous term. Deity is conceived not in the Gk term of nature but rather as a level of being, "the holy"; between this level and the level of "flesh" there is an impassable gulf. Impassable, that is, by man; it is bridged by Jesus, the Son, who renders it possible for men to be adopted sons. Without an explicit formula the NT leaves no room to think that Jesus is Himself an object of the adoption which He communicates to others. He knows the Father and reveals Him. He therefore belongs to the divine level of being; and there is no question at all about the Spirit belonging to the divine level of being. What is less clear about the Spirit is His personal reality; often He is mentioned in language in which His personal reality is not explicit. This distinction between God and flesh is the NT basis for the affirmation of the unity of nature; the very identification of the Father with "the God" shows that the NT writers intend to distinguish the Son and the Spirit from the Father. The NT does not approach the metaphysical problem of subordination, as it approaches no metaphysical problem. It offers no room for a statement of the relations of Father, Son, and Spirit which would imply that one of them is more or less properly on the divine level of being than another. In Jewish thought of the time the son and the spirit are angels; it does not even take the trouble explicitly to deny it. At the same time, it is necessary to recall that in Catholic belief the trinity of persons within the unity of nature is a mystery which ultimately escapes understanding; and in no respect is it more mysterious than in the relations of the persons to each other. "Son" and "Spirit" do not express perfect identity and are not intended to express it; the distinction of persons is not merely numerical but reposes upon a mysterious personality or character in each one which is unknown in its ultimate reality. The Church has declared that any statement of this distinction which reduces the divinity of any of the persons is a false statement; equally false would be a statement which would deny their personal distinction. The notions of Father, Son, and Spirit are revealed that we may know God better; and the theologian should explore these ideas. The OT does not contain suggestions or foreshadowing of the trinity of persons. What it does contain are the words which the NT employs to express the trinity of persons such as Father, Son, Word, Spirit, etc. A study of these words shows us how the revelation of God in the NT advances beyond the revelation of God in the OT. The same study of these words and their background is the best way to arrive at an understanding of the distinction of persons as it is stated in the NT." (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)

McKenzie, John L.: Dictionary of the Bible

Master Index of Quotes of Quotes used to trash the Trinity in the Watchtower's, "Should you believe the Trinity?"

 

[learner Daniel]

@YoursTrue , @cataway , @walt , @URAVIP2ME , @Eli G , we had an excellent meeting tonight, eh?

Jehovah’s Witnesses: Masters of Misquotation

“You Roman Catholics,” says the Jehovah’s Witness at the door, “claim the Bible teaches your doctrines, yet your own theologians deny this. &#...

www.catholic.com

 

[learner Daniel]

so much teaching to do .helping so many to catch-up on things that have happened

Please send me the summary book of these threads.

 

[learner Daniel]

John 14

Easy-to-Read Version

​

Jesus Comforts His Followers​

14 Jesus said, “Don’t be troubled. Trust in God, and trust in me. 2 There are many rooms in my Father’s house. I would not tell you this if it were not true. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 After I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back. Then I will take you with me, so that you can be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
5 Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father too. But now you know the Father. You have seen him.”
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need.”
9 Jesus answered, “Philip, I have been with you for a long time. So you should know me. Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father too. So why do you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The things I have told you don’t come from me. The Father lives in me, and he is doing his own work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or believe because of the miracles I have done.
12 “I can assure you that whoever believes in me will do the same things I have done. And they will do even greater things than I have done, because I am going to the Father. 13 And if you ask for anything in my name, I will do it for you. Then the Father’s glory will be shown through the Son. 14 If you ask me for anything in my name, I will do it.

The Promise of the Holy Spirit​

15 “If you love me, you will do what I command. 16 I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper[a] to be with you forever. 17 The Helper is the Spirit of truth.[b] The people of the world cannot accept him, because they don’t see him or know him. But you know him. He lives with you, and he will be in you.
18 “I will not leave you all alone like orphans. I will come back to you. 19 In a very short time the people in the world will not see me anymore. But you will see me. You will live because I live. 20 On that day you will know that I am in the Father. You will know that you are in me and I am in you. 21 Those who really love me are the ones who not only know my commands but also obey them. My Father will love such people, and I will love them. I will make myself known to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “Lord, how will you make yourself known to us, but not to the world?”
23 Jesus answered, “All who love me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them. My Father and I will come to them and live with them. 24 But anyone who does not love me does not obey my teaching. This teaching that you hear is not really mine. It is from my Father who sent me.
25 “I have told you all these things while I am with you. 26 But the Helper will teach you everything and cause you to remember all that I told you. This Helper is the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name.
27 “I leave you peace. It is my own peace I give you. I give you peace in a different way than the world does. So don’t be troubled. Don’t be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am leaving, but I will come back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be happy that I am going back to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am. 29 I have told you this now, before it happens. Then when it happens, you will believe.
30 “I will not talk with you much longer. The ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me. 31 But the world must know that I love the Father. So I do exactly what the Father told me to do.
“Come now, let’s go.”

Footnotes​

1. John 14:16 Helper Or “Comforter,” the Holy Spirit (see “Holy Spirit” in the Word List). Also in verse 26.
2. John 14:17 Spirit of truth The Holy Spirit (see “Holy Spirit” in the Word List). It was his work to help Jesus’ followers understand God’s truth. See Jn. 16:13.

 

[cataway]

Please send me the summary book of these threads.

''summary book of these threads ''?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Jehovah’s Witnesses: Masters of Misquotation

“You Roman Catholics,” says the Jehovah’s Witness at the door, “claim the Bible teaches your doctrines, yet your own theologians deny this. &#...

www.catholic.com

@learner Daniel , this article is funny, actually.

The title refers to JW’s as “masters of misquotation”, then the author promptly misquotes the publication!

Your article states, “What about the charge that the Trinity originated in Greek philosophy?”

There was no “charge.” And ‘Reasoning from the Scriptures’ says no such thing! It simply says the terms used to describe the Trinity, are Greek philosophical terms not found in the Bible. And those are McKenzie’s words, anyway.

If the article will not be honest in presenting the facts, we certainly can’t believe its conclusions.

So, I guess you’re Catholic, huh?
This is just something you can think about, I don’t want to put you on the spot by expecting an answer.

But really, the RCC has a bloody reputation! In addition to gruesomely torturing innocent people, its hierarchy has supported warfare almost from its inception!
Instead of following Christ’s command to ‘love your brother’ (John 13:34), which is an identifying mark of Jesus’ disciples (John 13:35), they disobeyed Jesus… Catholic has slaughtered Catholic with the clergy’s approval, due to nothing but geography and politics!
They haven’t supported the Prince of Peace when it really counted; rather, they’ve joined with the world, something Christ said not to do. (John 15:19) They’ve ‘spotted’ / ‘stained’ / ‘polluted’ themselves (James 1:27), which is unacceptable worship.

Protestantism has done the same.

Since truth comes from God (Luke 10:21), yet someone is disobedient to Him…. why should God give them anything? IOW, why should we expect them to have the truth?
Titus 1:16