The Trinity

[Sonofason]

Its not found in the bible? You speak too soon. Of course it isn't speaking of a magazine, but the word is in the bible even if only in English.:yes: (posted in fun)

King James Bible
And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked unto the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.


International Standard Version
When the army of Judah arrived at the remotest watchtower in the wilderness, they looked around at the invasion force, and to their surprise, there were dead bodies lying all around on the ground—not one had escaped!



GOD'S WORD® Translation
The people of Judah went to the watchtower in the desert and looked for the crowd. Corpses were lying on the ground. No one had escaped.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And when Judah came to the watch tower of the wilderness, they looked for the multitude, and, behold, they were fallen to the earth dead, for none had escaped.

King James 2000 Bible
And when Judah came to the watchtower in the wilderness, they looked toward the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.

American King James Version
And when Judah came toward the watch tower in the wilderness, they looked to the multitude, and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and none escaped.

American Standard Version
And when Judah came to the watch-tower of the wilderness, they looked upon the multitude; and, behold, they were dead bodies fallen to the earth, and there were none that escaped.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And when Juda came to the watch tower, that looketh toward the desert, they saw afar off all the country, for a great space, full of dead bodies, and that no one was left that could escape death.

So we can expect, if I come to the Watch Tower, that looks toward the desert, I shall see from afar, all of the country surrounding it, a great space, full of dead bodies, and no one left that could escape death. Sorry, I don't want to be associated with that kind of concept. You have at it.

 

[Katzpur]

It doesn't mention degrading black people either.A certain organization did this up until 1978.

True. And unfortunately, they weren't the only ones. How tragic it is that human beings are the earthly stewards of God's church and are fallible.

What does God say about this. 1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

I think you're missing the point here. I don't believe in the Trinity any more than you do, but it's ridiculous to simply pick a word or phrase that is used by any religious group and say that because that word or phrase cannot be found in the Bible, it's automatically false doctrine. If that was the case, the rest of the world's Christians could use that same argument against words and phrases common only to Jehovah's Witnesses. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Katzpur]

I know 100% for sure---The JW, teachers are Jesus' real teachers.

And millions of other people know 100% for sure that their religion's teachers are Jesus' real teachers. I'm serious about this. How do you explain that?

 

[Jensen]

So we can expect, if I come to the Watch Tower, that looks toward the desert, I shall see from afar, all of the country surrounding it, a great space, full of dead bodies, and no one left that could escape death. Sorry, I don't want to be associated with that kind of concept. You have at it.

Wow, did you miss the point. I said it was (posted in fun) in reply to Katzpur's post that the word watchtower was not in the bible, when it is. Here is the book, chapter and verse that I forgot to post. It wasn't posted for the contents of the verse; you need to lighten up.

2 Chronicles 20:24

 

[Sonofason]

Wow, did you miss the point. I said it was (posted in fun) in reply to Katzpur's post that the word watchtower was not in the bible, when it is. Here is the book, chapter and verse that I forgot to post. It wasn't posted for the contents of the verse; you need to lighten up.

2 Chronicles 20:24

Oh no, I understand why you posted the verse. But I'm wondering why in the world the JW's would even consider such a name for their highly regarded magazine with a verse like that resting under the foundation of it.

 

[Sonofason]

It's kinda like a devout Christian cult, calling themselves the demons.

 

[InChrist]

Just the simple fact that the JW's are the only ones distributing an accurate knowledge of the truth door to door and house to house is proof enough.

It says in Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Then in Acts 20:20 it says,"You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house."

Also in Acts 28:23 it says,"They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus."


The only ones who truly do as the 1st century Christians did are the JW's.They go door to door and house to house preaching about the Kingdom of God,persuading those about Jesus.

I think the way the Watchtower instructs its members to go door to door from one house to another is actually quite contrary to the scriptures which say...do not go from house to house.

But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. And heal the sick there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ (Luke 10:5-9)


The original disciples and apostles were instructed to go to various cities and find one home in each city which welcomed them and stay in that home while preaching in the city and proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ, out in public or in the synagogue. This biblical mandate is nothing like the door to door proselytizing JW'S do by going to many homes a day and attempting to get others to convert to the religion of the Watchtower.

 

[Nada]

You haven't made a point yet. It's time you do.

The fact that the word "Eucharist is not" in the Bible means nothing. Words are symbolic representations that are intended to express meaning, thoughts, and ideas. Oftentimes we form words for the sole purpose of consolidating existing word constructs. Most often, this is the case. Usually we begin with a lengthy construct of words, and designate a single word for that former construct of words. The definition usually comes first.

For example, once upon a time someone was investigating plants. And they saw that there exists a part of a plant that is often brightly colored, that usually lasts a short time, and from which the seed or fruit develops. And because man is relatively intelligent, knowing that time is valuable, determines to make it a little easier and less time consuming to discuss that "part of a plant that is often brightly colored, that usually lasts a short time, and from which the seed or fruit develops." So he gives that concept a name, a new name, a new symbolic expression that represents the entire word construct that formerly represented the flower, and the former word construct now becomes the definition of the new construct, namely the word "flower". Flowers existed before the word flower ever existed. And the definition for the word flower existed before the word flower existed, (this is my opinion, it is what I believe, I doubt I'm wrong about this.)

Now, lets look at the word "Eucharist".

Jesus said to His disciples:
"And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me."
(Luke 22:14-19)

This is the "Eucharist"

It's a new word, a single word that represents it's definition which existed before the word Eucharist existed. Jesus said, do it in remembrance of Him. So do it.

I don't care what term you want to give it. Read the entire passage if you want, every single time you decide you want to talk about it. But, I'm not going to waste a lot of time with the concept. I already know what the Eucharist is. I understand the concept the word is representing. I think it's about time you do to.

You are incorrect.It is called "The Lords evening meal." This was done after the passover meal was observed.After Judas Iscariot was dismissed.Jesus broke the bread and passed the wine.This was the new covenant that Jesus established with his 11 disciples.This took place on Nissan 14th, in the Jewish calendar month of Abib, in 33 C.E. Jesus calls it his "evening meal" and states this is the new covenant.He never uses the word "Eucharist" or "Transubstantiation."

1 Corinthians 11:20 When you come together in one place, it is not really to eat the Lord’s Evening Meal. 21 For when you eat it, each one takes his own evening meal beforehand, so that one is hungry but another is intoxicated. 22 Do you not have houses for eating and drinking? Or do you despise the congregation of God and make those who have nothing feel ashamed? What can I say to you? Should I commend you? In this I do not commend you.


23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night on which he was going to be betrayed took a loaf, 24 and after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body, which is in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did the same with the cup also, after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he comes.

So we can see that this practice is called the "Lords evening meal" which established the "new covenant."


As for Transubstantiation[/U],this is totally wrong.Jesus never performed any miracles at this meal.When he passed the bread and the wine,these were symbolic emblems that represented his flesh and blood.They were not literal.He was still alive and intact when he established this new covenant.His literal offering would be done later that afternoon.

Another thing,God is against cannibalism.To eat the flesh and drink the blood of a person is considered cannibalism.This does not originate with God.It is of pagan origin.This is not what Jesus meant when he said eat the bread and drink the wine.Misconceptions on the part of those who have been mislead by false doctrines and beliefs of men have led them astray.

 

[Nada]

You just degraded a whole group of people, just now, by calling special attention to the color of their skin. Why did you do that? Why did you even bring that up?

You are trying to be funny.

 

[Nada]

It's kinda like a devout Christian cult, calling themselves the demons.

Brother,you call yourself a Christian but your demeanor and expressions say otherwise.

 

[Nada]

I think the way the Watchtower instructs its members to go door to door from one house to another is actually quite contrary to the scriptures which say...do not go from house to house.

But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. And heal the sick there, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ (Luke 10:5-9)


The original disciples and apostles were instructed to go to various cities and find one home in each city which welcomed them and stay in that home while preaching in the city and proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ, out in public or in the synagogue. This biblical mandate is nothing like the door to door proselytizing JW'S do by going to many homes a day and attempting to get others to convert to the religion of the Watchtower.

You misunderstand and try to make that passage fit your own interpretation.What that passage in Luke 10:1-7 is really saying is that they should remain in a house where hospitality is shown and not to keep transferring to other houses in seeking a place where the householder can provide them with more comfort,entertainment or material things.

Jesus explained before this that they are not to take any money bags,food or sandals.

4 Do not carry a money bag or a food pouch or sandals

So, Jesus instructed them to remain in that house where hospitality was shown and receive their due wages for spreading the good news.This was payment to them for their work.

7 So stay in that house, eating and drinking the things they provide, for the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not keep transferring from house to house.


So you see,Jesus was not telling them not to go house to house doing preaching work.Jesus was explaining to them not to go house to house seeking more than what was needed for their payment.To remain in that first house where they were shown hospitality.

If you read the entire passage from verse 1-7 it will make more sense to you

 

[Nada]

I think the way the Watchtower instructs its members to go door to door from one house to another is actually quite contrary to the scriptures which say...do not go from house to house.

It is not the watchtower that instructs JW's to go door to door and house to house.It is a commandment from God in the holy scriptures.

First we have the commandment about spreading the Word of God.

Matthew 24:14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Then,you have the instructions provided by the actions of Paul and others.


Acts 20:20 while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.

The apostle Paul told Christian overseers: “I did not hold back from . . . teaching you publicly and from house to house.” That Paul here was not simply talking about teaching in the elders’ homes, as some suggest, is indicated in the next verse: “But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Acts 20:21) Fellow believers had already repented and put faith in Jesus. So the preaching and teaching from house to house clearly had to do with bearing witness to unbelievers.





Acts 28:23 They now arranged for a day to meet with him, and they came in even greater numbers to him in his lodging place. And from morning to evening, he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the Kingdom of God, to persuade them about Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

So we clearly have documented record of Paul going house to house doing the preaching work.He gathered with many in public and in private,persuading them about Jesus.

This is all commanded in the holy scriptures long before the JW's brought it to anyones attention.The JW's just do what God commands.

 

[kjw47]

And millions of other people know 100% for sure that their religion's teachers are Jesus' real teachers. I'm serious about this. How do you explain that?

Only one of our sides really know God and Jesus--the other is mislead.

 

[kjw47]

And yet what you just said means absolutely nothing to me. Interesting.

It would be the same for me if you made my quote---that means only one of us really know God and Jesus--The other is mislead by these-2Cor 11:12-15--And if one applys this-1Cor 1:10-- they can see clearer.

 

[sojourner]

Only one of our sides really know God and Jesus--the other is mislead.

"Sides?" Srsly?? Are Christians not one body? The bible certainly says so. Maybe God is multifaceted and you can only see on side of God at a time.

 

[Katzpur]

Only one of our sides really know God and Jesus--the other is mislead.

You're right. Except that both sides know 100% for sure. And you apparently don't see a problem with that.

 

[InChrist]

You misunderstand and try to make that passage fit your own interpretation.What that passage in Luke 10:1-7 is really saying is that they should remain in a house where hospitality is shown and not to keep transferring to other houses in seeking a place where the householder can provide them with more comfort,entertainment or material things.

Jesus explained before this that they are not to take any money bags,food or sandals.

4 Do not carry a money bag or a food pouch or sandals

So, Jesus instructed them to remain in that house where hospitality was shown and receive their due wages for spreading the good news.This was payment to them for their work.

7 So stay in that house, eating and drinking the things they provide, for the worker is worthy of his wages. Do not keep transferring from house to house.


So you see,Jesus was not telling them not to go house to house doing preaching work.Jesus was explaining to them not to go house to house seeking more than what was needed for their payment.To remain in that first house where they were shown hospitality.

If you read the entire passage from verse 1-7 it will make more sense to you

Yes, reading the entire passage does make it clear as I have previously said that the seventy who were sent out were to stay in one house which welcomed them, as you have said yourself. The passage also clearly says they were not to go from house to house. The Watchtower places a burden upon its members requiring them to go from house to house, meeting quotas, doing preaching work, and distributing magazines, not merely to share the gospel, but more importantly with the ulterior motive of getting people to join the organization. I don't believe this is biblical preaching led by the Spirit of God about the good news of Jesus Christ at all, but rather a heavy burden placed on members in order to control them and benefit the the Watchtower organization.

 

[Sonofason]

You are incorrect.It is called "The Lords evening meal." This was done after the passover meal was observed.After Judas Iscariot was dismissed.Jesus broke the bread and passed the wine.This was the new covenant that Jesus established with his 11 disciples.This took place on Nissan 14th, in the Jewish calendar month of Abib, in 33 C.E. Jesus calls it his "evening meal" and states this is the new covenant.He never uses the word "Eucharist" or "Transubstantiation."

1 Corinthians 11:20 When you come together in one place, it is not really to eat the Lord’s Evening Meal. 21 For when you eat it, each one takes his own evening meal beforehand, so that one is hungry but another is intoxicated. 22 Do you not have houses for eating and drinking? Or do you despise the congregation of God and make those who have nothing feel ashamed? What can I say to you? Should I commend you? In this I do not commend you.


23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night on which he was going to be betrayed took a loaf, 24 and after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body, which is in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did the same with the cup also, after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he comes.

So we can see that this practice is called the "Lords evening meal" which established the "new covenant."


As for Transubstantiation[/U],this is totally wrong.Jesus never performed any miracles at this meal.When he passed the bread and the wine,these were symbolic emblems that represented his flesh and blood.They were not literal.He was still alive and intact when he established this new covenant.His literal offering would be done later that afternoon.

Another thing,God is against cannibalism.To eat the flesh and drink the blood of a person is considered cannibalism.This does not originate with God.It is of pagan origin.This is not what Jesus meant when he said eat the bread and drink the wine.Misconceptions on the part of those who have been mislead by false doctrines and beliefs of men have led them astray.

It's what ever I choose to call it.

 

[Sonofason]

You are trying to be funny.

No, I'm being completely honest.

 

[InChrist]

It is not the watchtower that instructs JW's to go door to door and house to house.It is a commandment from God in the holy scriptures.

First we have the commandment about spreading the Word of God.

Matthew 24:14 And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Then,you have the instructions provided by the actions of Paul and others.


Acts 20:20 while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.

The apostle Paul told Christian overseers: “I did not hold back from . . . teaching you publicly and from house to house.” That Paul here was not simply talking about teaching in the elders’ homes, as some suggest, is indicated in the next verse: “But I thoroughly bore witness both to Jews and to Greeks about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus.” (Acts 20:21) Fellow believers had already repented and put faith in Jesus. So the preaching and teaching from house to house clearly had to do with bearing witness to unbelievers.





Acts 28:23 They now arranged for a day to meet with him, and they came in even greater numbers to him in his lodging place. And from morning to evening, he explained the matter to them by bearing thorough witness concerning the Kingdom of God, to persuade them about Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

So we clearly have documented record of Paul going house to house doing the preaching work.He gathered with many in public and in private,persuading them about Jesus.

This is all commanded in the holy scriptures long before the JW's brought it to anyones attention.The JW's just do what God commands.

The example you posted above shows that Paul stayed or lodged in one house at a time and people came there and stayed all day to hear him preach. It does not indicate that he went knocking on all the doors in the neighborhood or city. So the Bible does not instruct the type of door to door work which the Watctower requires its members to do.