The Trinity

[rusra02]

Jesus had no beginning! There is no Scripture that says He had a beginning. He was there in the beginning.

"In the beginning WAS the Word. The Word WAS with God. The Word WAS God (John 1:1).

A thorough, unbiased study of the verse in Greek is needed.

John 1:1 en arch hn o logoV kai o logoV hn proV ton qeon kai qeoV hn o logoV

The form of the verb EIMI ("to be") here is HN ("WAS"). It is in the "imperfect" tense. The imperfect bears the sense of "continuous or linear existence in past time." The use of this tense is significant. It tells us that in the time period in question ("The Beginning"), the Logos was in continuous existence. That is, there is no hint of His coming INTO existence in this time period.

When John uses this tense in the context of "the Beginning," He is teaching that the Logos pre-existed all creation. This is the force of the imperfect form of EIMI. There is no hint in John's language that the Logos was created. John could easily have used a form of the verb EGENTO ("to become") as he does in verse 14, had he wished to do so. Instead, he consciously echoes the language of Genesis 1:1, and places the Logos in that same creation event. But, while EN ARXEi EGENTO hO LOGOS would teach without question that the Logos came to be in the beginning, what John actually wrote - EN ARXEi HN hO LOGOS - teaches that the Logos was already there.

If you truly care about truth, then I would suggest you contact a Greek language expert, one who is not biased, one who will not tell you what you want to hear, but one who will speak the truth to the best of his/her ability.

Blessings,

Katie

Yes, in the beginning (Genesis 1:1) the Word was with God. Many translations accurately render John 1:1 similar to this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Verses 2,3 explain "This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."

 

[katiemygirl]

Collosians 1:15--- the--FIRSTBORN--of all-- CREATION--= created.

Prov 8 talking about Jesus= wisdom) 1Cor 1:30) 8:22--- produced me( Jesus) = created--as the beginning( creation) of your ways--- also prov goes on--- grew especially fond of me(Jesus)

as well Psalm 45:7--- talking about Jesus--- oiled Me( Jesus) more than my partners( angels)

So yes Gods word is clear--Jesus was created--first and last direct by YHWH(Jehovah) all other things create8d Through Jesus( acts 2:22) proving he is Gods master worker.

Yes, in the beginning (Genesis 1:1) the Word was with God. Many translations accurately render John 1:1 similar to this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Verses 2,3 explain "This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."

 

[katiemygirl]

Collosians 1:15--- the--FIRSTBORN--of all-- CREATION--= created.

Prov 8 talking about Jesus= wisdom) 1Cor 1:30) 8:22--- produced me( Jesus) = created--as the beginning( creation) of your ways--- also prov goes on--- grew especially fond of me(Jesus)

as well Psalm 45:7--- talking about Jesus--- oiled Me( Jesus) more than my partners( angels)

So yes Gods word is clear--Jesus was created--first and last direct by YHWH(Jehovah) all other things create8d Through Jesus( acts 2:22) proving he is Gods master worker.

Yes, in the beginning (Genesis 1:1) the Word was with God. Many translations accurately render John 1:1 similar to this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." Verses 2,3 explain "This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."

KJW47-
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (KJV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (NIV)

Firstborn does not mean created. Created is not a part of the definition.

The Greek term for "firstborn" is prototokos.

prototokos: first-born
Original Word: πρωτότοκος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prototokos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-tot-ok'-os)
Short Definition: first-born
Definition: first-born, eldest.

4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).

4416 /prōtótokos ("firstly") specifically refers to Christ as the first to experience glorification, i.e. at His resurrection (see Heb 12:23; Rev 1:5). For this (and countless other reasons) Jesus is "preeminent" (4416 /prōtótokos) – the unequivocal Sovereign over all creation (Col 1:16).

[4416 (prōtótokos) refers to "the first among others (who follow)" – as with the preeminent, glorified Christ, the eternal Logos who possesses self-existent life (Jn 5:26).]

"Firstborn of every creature refers to Christ's position of supremacy over all of creation by virtue of the fact that He is the Creator of all things (verse 16).

Israel is called God's "firstborn." (Exodus 4:22) Israel was not the first nation that God brought into existence, but positionally as God's chosen and privileged nation Israel was supreme.

The term "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 is used to express Christ's preeminence over creation. He outranks every created thing because He is the Creator!

There is a Greek word which means first created (protoktistos) but Paul did not use this word of Christ.

More in next post!

Blessings,

Katie

 

[katiemygirl]

KJW47- You said, "Prov 8 talking about Jesus= wisdom) 1Cor 1:30) 8:22--- produced me( Jesus) = created--as the beginning( creation) of your ways--- also prov goes on--- grew especially fond of me(Jesus)"

Are you suggesting that God created wisdom, that wisdom didn't always exist? YIKES!

Blessings,

Katie

 

[katiemygirl]

RUSRA02-

You said, "Many translations accurately render John 1:1 similar to this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

No, many do not! The NWT does.

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.King James 2000 Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.American King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Darby Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

 

[Yes]

Collosians 1:15--- the--FIRSTBORN--of all-- CREATION--= created.

Prov 8 talking about Jesus= wisdom) 1Cor 1:30) 8:22--- produced me( Jesus) = created--as the beginning( creation) of your ways--- also prov goes on--- grew especially fond of me(Jesus)

as well Psalm 45:7--- talking about Jesus--- oiled Me( Jesus) more than my partners( angels)

So yes Gods word is clear--Jesus was created--first and last direct by YHWH(Jehovah) all other things created Through Jesus( acts 2:22) proving he is Gods master worker.

Jesus' body was created; however, His Spirit is God's Spirit, and God always existed.

 

[kjw47]

KJW47-
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (KJV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (NIV)

Firstborn does not mean created. Created is not a part of the definition.

The Greek term for "firstborn" is prototokos.

prototokos: first-born
Original Word: πρωτότοκος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prototokos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-tot-ok'-os)
Short Definition: first-born
Definition: first-born, eldest.

4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).

4416 /prōtótokos ("firstly") specifically refers to Christ as the first to experience glorification, i.e. at His resurrection (see Heb 12:23; Rev 1:5). For this (and countless other reasons) Jesus is "preeminent" (4416 /prōtótokos) – the unequivocal Sovereign over all creation (Col 1:16).

[4416 (prōtótokos) refers to "the first among others (who follow)" – as with the preeminent, glorified Christ, the eternal Logos who possesses self-existent life (Jn 5:26).]

"Firstborn of every creature refers to Christ's position of supremacy over all of creation by virtue of the fact that He is the Creator of all things (verse 16).

Israel is called God's "firstborn." (Exodus 4:22) Israel was not the first nation that God brought into existence, but positionally as God's chosen and privileged nation Israel was supreme.

The term "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 is used to express Christ's preeminence over creation. He outranks every created thing because He is the Creator!

There is a Greek word which means first created (protoktistos) but Paul did not use this word of Christ.

More in next post!

Blessings,

Katie

Here is Jesus teaching the opposite of your teachers assessment--Proverbs 8- 1Cor 1:30)

8:22--produced( created) me as the beginning( first and last direct) of your( God) way--- as well --grew especially fond of me.
Jesus= wisdom=Gods master worker

Let us( God and his master worker) make man in our image.

The firstborn( created direct-first and last)

 

[kjw47]

Jesus' body was created; however, His Spirit is God's Spirit, and God always existed.

Prov 8--1Cor 1:30)
Jesus speaking at 8:22--Produced( created first and last direct) as the beginning of your( God) way( creating)

Grew especially fond of me( 0 doubt this is Jesus)

this is Jesus speaking--Psalm 45:7-- oiled me( Jesus) more than my partners( angels)

 

[Yes]

Prov 8--1Cor 1:30)
Jesus speaking at 8:22--Produced( created first and last direct) as the beginning of your( God) way( creating)

Grew especially fond of me( 0 doubt this is Jesus)

this is Jesus speaking--Psalm 45:7-- oiled me( Jesus) more than my partners( angels)

Would you mind explaining more to me what you mean?

 

[kjw47]

Would you mind explaining more to me what you mean?

trinities refuse to believe--prov 8 is about Jesus--they say God is talking about--WISDOM--yet at 1Cor 1:30--clearly shows it is Jesus who became wisdom, proving prov 8 is about Jesus and it is Jesus speaking in certain spots there.
And at verse 22--Jesus speaking---Produced me( created me--first and last direct(-- they refuse to believe this because it atom bombs their trinity teaching into oblivion--proving those teachers are these--the ones warned about-2Thess 2:3--2Cor 11:12-15)

it goes on in prov 8--- grew especially fond of me( who is God especially fond of= Jesus)
Jesus is--Gods master worker.

making this a reality

let us( God and his master worker) make man in our image.

 

[Yes]

trinities refuse to believe--prov 8 is about Jesus--they say God is talking about--WISDOM--yet at 1Cor 1:30--clearly shows it is Jesus who became wisdom, proving prov 8 is about Jesus and it is Jesus speaking in certain spots there.
And at verse 22--Jesus speaking---Produced me( created me--first and last direct(-- they refuse to believe this because it atom bombs their trinity teaching into oblivion--proving those teachers are these--the ones warned about-2Thess 2:3--2Cor 11:12-15)

it goes on in prov 8--- grew especially fond of me( who is God especially fond of= Jesus)
Jesus is--Gods master worker.

making this a reality

let us( God and his master worker) make man in our image.

I believe that there are three and that the three are One and the same.

The trinity doctrine errs because they say there are three but that the three are not the same.

If the three are not the same, as the trinity doctrine says, then there are three different gods.

However, there are not three different gods.

God is invisible and lives in unapproachable light.

Before God made anything, He made Himself a body.

That body is the glorified body of the Man to come, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the First and the Last.

Jesus is God made visible, even before coming to earth.

After God made Himself a body, of the Man to come, Jesus Christ...God then created everything through this Jesus. God created everything through him, for him, and by him.

 

[rusra02]

RUSRA02-

You said, "Many translations accurately render John 1:1 similar to this: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

No, many do not! The NWT does.

TheNewEnglishBible says: “And what God was, the Word was.”

Moffatt’s translation reads: “The Logos was divine.”

Böhmer: “It was tightly bound up with God, yes, itself of divine being.”

Stage: “The Word was itself of divine being.”

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god." TheFourGospels—ANewTranslation, by Professor Charles Cutler Torrey (2nd ed., 1947) "god" is in small letters when referring to the Word.

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.

1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

Many translations do accurately render John 1:1 similar to the NWT.

 

[Desert Snake]

trinities refuse to believe--prov 8 is about Jesus--they say God is talking about--WISDOM--yet at 1Cor 1:30--clearly shows it is Jesus who became wisdom, proving prov 8 is about Jesus and it is Jesus speaking in certain spots there.
And at verse 22--Jesus speaking---Produced me( created me--first and last direct(-- they refuse to believe this because it atom bombs their trinity teaching into oblivion--proving those teachers are these--the ones warned about-2Thess 2:3--2Cor 11:12-15)

it goes on in prov 8--- grew especially fond of me( who is God especially fond of= Jesus)
Jesus is--Gods master worker.

making this a reality

let us( God and his master worker) make man in our image.

The logos is jesus, sure. I guess. Whatever. But God is Jesus anyway.
Jesus=JHVH /'Lord', = 'God'/Theos. Theres no differentiation.

 

[rusra02]

KJW47-
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (KJV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (NIV)

Firstborn does not mean created. Created is not a part of the definition.

The Greek term for "firstborn" is prototokos.

prototokos: first-born
Original Word: πρωτότοκος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: prototokos
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-tot-ok'-os)
Short Definition: first-born
Definition: first-born, eldest.

4416 prōtótokos (from 4413 /prṓtos, "first, pre-eminent" and 5088 /tíktō, "bring forth") – properly, first in time (Mt 1:25; Lk 2:7); hence, pre-eminent (Col 1:15; Rev 1:5).

4416 /prōtótokos ("firstly") specifically refers to Christ as the first to experience glorification, i.e. at His resurrection (see Heb 12:23; Rev 1:5). For this (and countless other reasons) Jesus is "preeminent" (4416 /prōtótokos) – the unequivocal Sovereign over all creation (Col 1:16).

[4416 (prōtótokos) refers to "the first among others (who follow)" – as with the preeminent, glorified Christ, the eternal Logos who possesses self-existent life (Jn 5:26).]

"Firstborn of every creature refers to Christ's position of supremacy over all of creation by virtue of the fact that He is the Creator of all things (verse 16).

Israel is called God's "firstborn." (Exodus 4:22) Israel was not the first nation that God brought into existence, but positionally as God's chosen and privileged nation Israel was supreme.

The term "firstborn" in Colossians 1:15 is used to express Christ's preeminence over creation. He outranks every created thing because He is the Creator!

There is a Greek word which means first created (protoktistos) but Paul did not use this word of Christ.

More in next post!

Blessings,

Katie

If something or someone is firstborn, they are still part of what they are firstborn. Thus, Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, since he himself as God's Son, was created. Thus Revelation 4:13 rightly and correctly calls Jesus "the beginning of the creation by God."

 

[kjw47]

I believe that there are three and that the three are One and the same.

The trinity doctrine errs because they say there are three but that the three are not the same.

If the three are not the same, as the trinity doctrine says, then there are three different gods.

However, there are not three different gods.

God is invisible and lives in unapproachable light.

Before God made anything, He made Himself a body.

That body is the glorified body of the Man to come, Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the First and the Last.

Jesus is God made visible, even before coming to earth.

After God made Himself a body, of the Man to come, Jesus Christ...God then created everything through this Jesus. God created everything through him, for him, and by him.

Jesus' truth--John 20:17, Rev 3:12--and this-1Cor 15:24-28--- proves your post as wrong.

 

[kjw47]

If something or someone is firstborn, they are still part of what they are firstborn. Thus, Jesus is the firstborn of every creature, since he himself as God's Son, was created. Thus Revelation 4:13 rightly and correctly calls Jesus "the beginning of the creation by God."

Yes the very beginning, before anything was created Yhwh created--Jesus first and last--direct.

 

[kjw47]

The logos is jesus, sure. I guess. Whatever. But God is Jesus anyway.
Jesus=JHVH /'Lord', = 'God'/Theos. Theres no differentiation.

How about this difference

Did Jesus sit at his own right hand?--NO
Did Jesus teach he has a God--YES
Did all of Jesus real teachers--teach--Jesus has a God-his Father-YES.

Now the biggest question ever placed to mortal hearts---Does God have a God?

 

[Yes]

Jesus' truth--John 20:17, Rev 3:12--and this-1Cor 15:24-28--- proves your post as wrong.

You are badly mistaken.

How do you ever get that those scriptures prove me wrong?

 

[kjw47]

You are badly mistaken.

How do you ever get that those scriptures prove me wrong?

you said the 3 are one in the same--yet Gods word( Jesus)and all his real teachers teach---Jesus has a God-his Father
and the lother scripture-1Cor 15:24-28

After Jesus millennial reign is over--Jesus hands back the kingdom to--his God and Father and --SUBJECTS--himself)----- forever.

So according to Jesus and his real teachers--Jesus has a God--according then to your posting and teachers--- God has a God---- someone errs and is not correct.

 

[Yes]

you said the 3 are one in the same--yet Gods word( Jesus)and all his real teachers teach---Jesus has a God-his Father

Jesus has a Father because Jesus is God with a body. They are exactly the same.

What differences do you think they have?

and the lother scripture-1Cor 15:24-28

That scripture does not say Jesus is not God. All scriptures prove that Jesus is God.

Jesus hands over the kingdom to the Father...that is after we are made exactly like Jesus' body.

We will all be the same.

The scriptures say his, Jesus', kingdom will have no end

Luke 1:31 and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."

Did you read that?

Jesus is God. If Jesus was not God, then his kingdom would end, especially when Jesus hands the kingdom over to the Father.

However, Jesus' kingdom will never end, even after he, in bodily form, hands over the kingdom to his Father.

After Jesus millennial reign is over--Jesus hands back the kingdom to--his God and Father and --SUBJECTS--himself)----- forever.

We will all be the same. We will all be like Jesus. We will all be like Jesus is, who is God.

So according to Jesus and his real teachers--Jesus has a God--according then to your posting and teachers--- God has a God---- someone errs and is not correct.

You are badly mistaken, not knowing the scriptures or God.