The Trinity

[Flat Earth Kyle]

I believe assuming that the us in Genesis 1:26 meant the angels would be adding to the Bible something that was never there.

 

[Shermana]

I believe assuming that the us in Genesis 1:26 meant the angels would be adding to the Bible something that was never there.

Where did the Cherubim come from?

If it's one thing I'll give the LDS church, it's the pre-existence doctrine.

 

[InChrist]

The "us" in Genesis 1:26 is the Angels, John's readers were well familiar with this "Logos Theology" of Philo back in the day. The Cherubim who guarded the Tree of Life was not just made spontaneously at that moment.

The idea of 3 persons in 1 being where the persons are talking to each other IS a problem and strange, just not to a Trinitarian who accepts such things. You can believe in a Skitzo version of G-d if you want, I'll go by the simpler and context-keeping Arian version.

How is the 3 persons in one being concept different than Brahamanism anyway? What is a "person" exactly? I rarely get an answer to that question. It seems the use of the word "person" is as far as they go. What does it mean to have more than one personality? Does the Father know things that Jesus doesn't or are they both clued in on the same things?

[FONT=&quot]Definition of PERSONALITY[/FONT]


a:[FONT=&quot] the quality or state of being a person[/FONT]
b:[FONT=&quot] personal existence [/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]The personal Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the God of the Bible is much different from that of Brahmanism in that the Biblical God has personal characteristics and is distinct from His creation as opposed to being an impersonal force which permeates everything as in Brahmanism.
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[FONT=&quot]“In Hinduism, Brahman has the power to bring things into appearance. However, the pantheistic component of Hinduism claims God did not create the world: God is the world, along with everything in it. The world was not created, it always was, just like the soul that always has existed and will always exist.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Hindus do not believe in a personal, loving God; but in Brahman, a formless, abstract, eternal being without personal attributes[/FONT][FONT=&quot].”[/FONT]
Windmill Ministries - Christian Apologetics

[FONT=&quot]I have never heard the idea that the “us” in Genesis refers to angels. Clearly the context does not indicate anything about angels, but God alone.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Gen. 1:26-27[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]All of the apostles except John were martyred because of their faith and devotion to Jesus Christ. They would not deny His name (or deity) because they each understood that He was God … Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood Acts 20:28. Thomas also understood when he said “My Lord and my God. “, which literally translated from the Greek is the Lord of me and the God of me. The apostles came to believe and understand the triune nature God had revealed to them and baptized new believers in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Peter affirmed this truth about Jesus Christ and gave warning against those who would teach otherwise about difficult concepts such as the trinity… Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen. 2Peter 3:14-18[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]I’m truly sorry you accept the Arian heresy and I’m sure I can’t convince you to stop denying Jesus Christ, but I can and am praying for you.[/FONT]
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[Shermana]

"[FONT="]Clearly the context does not indicate anything about angels, but God alone."[/FONT]

So when were the Cherubim created?

I'm truly sorry you accept the Trinitarian heresy, and I'm sure I can't convince you to stop denying that Jesus was the Christ as the Scriptures say he was which I doubt you have even read the Messianic requirements, may you be shown your error. Your prayer for me to be Trinitarian will be futile, no matter how hard you try.

Also, the "Blood of his own" as many commentaries point out, means "His own" as in "his son".

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Ac20_28.html

 

[InChrist]

So when were the Cherubim created?

[FONT=&quot]I think the angels were created when God preformed the work of all His other creation mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis, but the Bible does not specifically indicate the time of their creation., so any guess is speculation. Anyway, the scriptures say humans were created in the image of God, not the image of angels….[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]So God created man in His own image Gen. 1:26-27. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The ‘us” and the “Our” are not in reference to angels, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the work of creation, specifically creating humans in these verses.[/FONT]

Also, the "Blood of his own" as many commentaries point out, means "His own" as in "his son".

[FONT=&quot]Despite what some commentaries say, the interlinear Greek- English New Testament says, “his own blood”.[/FONT]

I'm truly sorry you accept the Trinitarian heresy, and I'm sure I can't convince you to stop denying that Jesus was the Christ as the Scriptures say he was which I doubt you have even read the Messianic requirements, may you be shown your error. Your prayer for me to be Trinitarian will be futile, no matter how hard you try.

[FONT=&quot]I am not interested in “trying hard” to get you to be a Trinitarian. I am just hoping you will come to the point of knowing the true God and Savior. I am praying for you and I trust that God will reveal Himself to you in the Person of Jesus Christ.
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Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ… 2 Peter 1:1

 

[Shermana]

The people of John's day were well versed in Philo's "Logos Theology", which states that Wisdom personified was the first created thing, as said in Proverbs. The Cherubim obviously existed before the Garden. Saying that the "us" refers to "me myself and I" is simply not viable.

Many people are called "Savior" and "Deliverer" in the OT, and the Father is the Ultimate Savior who sends Saviors. The word "Yahowshua" means "Yah saves" and was the same name as "Joshua". The word "Savior" itself is misunderstood.

The word "And" does not necessarily refer to the same being, again, you can interpret it that way if you wish if you acknowledge it doesn't necessarily mean "the same being" in the "and".

"His own blood" means His son. You can choose what you want to believe about it.

I dare you to pray and ask if I am right instead of praying for me to see things your way.

 

[InChrist]

The people of John's day were well versed in Philo's "Logos Theology", which states that Wisdom personified was the first created thing, as said in Proverbs. The Cherubim obviously existed before the Garden. Saying that the "us" refers to "me myself and I" is simply not viable.

Many people are called "Savior" and "Deliverer" in the OT, and the Father is the Ultimate Savior who sends Saviors. The word "Yahowshua" means "Yah saves" and was the same name as "Joshua". The word "Savior" itself is misunderstood.

The word "And" does not necessarily refer to the same being, again, you can interpret it that way if you wish if you acknowledge it doesn't necessarily mean "the same being" in the "and".

"His own blood" means His son. You can choose what you want to believe about it.

I dare you to pray and ask if I am right instead of praying for me to see things your way.

[FONT=&quot]Truly, I do not want you to agree with me for the sake of having you see things my way. I only pray you are willing and desire to accept what God shows you is His way and you can only know that by asking Him. I have already taken your dare and spoken to God asking Him if you are right and I am wrong. Everyday, I ask for protection from deception and false teachings. I may not have had your exact beliefs or background, but before I knew the LORD I did not believe, acknowledge or understand that Jesus was God and I was adamant against the trinity. But I did get to a point where I wanted the truth and nothing but the truth, so I sincerely sought God in prayer and He faithfully answered. It was Jesus who delivered and saved me. My eyes were opened to the scripture with understanding I never had before and the scriptures testify of Him.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. John 5:39[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I’m not going to dare you, but I hope you are willing to sincerely ask God the Father to reveal to you who Jesus Christ is.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[Shermana]

I already know who Jesus Christ is, and I doubt your claim that you were divinely told otherwise. Go back to being against the Trinity, I guarantee you that is the truth that the Father approves of.

Those who say that Jesus was G-d incarnate are the ones who aren't truly acknowledging him as the "Christ", but only in speech. Do you even know what the Messianic requirements are and what the "Christ" was prophecied to be?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe assuming that the us in Genesis 1:26 meant the angels would be adding to the Bible something that was never there.

Isn't 'us' generally meaning two. Let 'you and I' [us] go....... Not let we go.

So, the 'us' of Gen [1v26; 3v22;11v7] is God conversing with another one.

What does Revelation [3v14 B] say as to who was the one at the beginning of heavenly creation by God ? He is the other person of 'us'.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

[FONT=&quot]I think the angels were created when God preformed the work of all His other creation mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis, but the Bible does not specifically indicate the time of their creation., so any guess is speculation. Anyway, the scriptures say humans were created in the image of God, not the image of angels….[/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]So God created man in His own image Gen. 1:26-27. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The ‘us” and the “Our” are not in reference to angels, but the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the work of creation, specifically creating humans in these verses.[/FONT]

The time of angelic creation is before the material/physical realm according to Job 38 vs4,7

The spirit of God is mentioned at Gen 1v2 as moving [animated] in connection to earth's creation.
The word 'our' is Not used at Gen 1v26 nor 3v22 nor 11v7.
The word 'Us' does not have to imply an equal. An equal three.
Is God's holy spirit an equal?
God and Jesus are always referred to in the masculine. Never are they: 'its'.
However, God's holy spirit is referred to as: 'it' or 'itself'.
- Num 11vs16,17,25; Romans 8vs16,26

According to Proverbs 8vs22,30; John 1v3; Col 1vs15,16 all things are made through the pre-human Christ. Christ as God's only-begotten heavenly Son being the beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3v14 B.

Only God had No beginning according to Psalm 90v2.
Only God was before the beginning.
Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

God was speaking 'us' to his first heavenly creation [direct heavenly creation] because all else [heaven and earth] comes through Christ.

 

[outhouse]

first why do people keep mentioning genesis???? it has nothing to do with the trinity at all.



the trinity doesnt even have anything to do with the NT


None of the bible teaches the trinity.




it is a man made contruct of how people described jesus divinity, argued about it and constantine judged and ruled on it. It was 75 years later after the judgement before it was semi official.

 

[Muffled]

Son of G-d is the same thing as G-d? So when all the Sons of G-d showed up in Job 2, those were all avatars?

From the scripture it appears that they wre all Paracletes.

From the Tanakh:
Bere**** 6:3 And HaShem said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'

There is no evidence that the sons of God in Job were present bodily.

 

[Muffled]

no he never said that lol


he denies being a messiah as well.



Im not saying he was inoccent either, or sane for that matter. But your blowing it way out of porportion

I just read what was reported and reporters have been known to exxagerate but I was not there to hear him speak. Were You?

 

[Muffled]

And when the Big Booming Voice said that he was well pleased by His Son, that was himself talking about himself somehow? Pretty narcissistic I'd say, but if he was congratulating Yashua on how much he was honored by him because of his own independent use of his free will, that would make more sense.

If you had to rely on what makes sense you would have to throw out most of the Bible.

Yes.

Narcissism is only one point of view and most likely not the correct one. The moe likely issue is whether He would be accepted in a body by men. By saying He was pleased He was giving creditablibilty to his incarnation.

 

[outhouse]

I just read what was reported and reporters have been known to exxagerate but I was not there to hear him speak. Were You?

no

but the authors of the bible never heard a word from the lips of a man called yeshua or jesus or what ever you want to call him

 

[URAVIP2ME]

no
but the authors of the bible never heard a word from the lips of a man called yeshua or jesus or what ever you want to call him

Wasn't Matthew and John Bible writers ?
Wasn't Matthew and John apostles of Jesus?
How could Matthew and John be a follower and author if they never heard a word from the lips of Jesus ?

 

[outhouse]

Wasn't Matthew and John Bible writers ?

they are attributed authors.

Matthew is unknown and much of his work was copied from earlier sources

John is also unknow and was written over a long time by atleast 3 different people or groups of people. John was said to be illiterate and that book was finished 100AD.

Wasn't Matthew and John apostles of Jesus?

yes


bu they cannot be placed as authors and who knows if they even knew how to write. The poor communities were highly illiterate.

most of the early gospel works were started long after jesus died. I believe you have atleast 30 years of oral traditon AD before anything was written down. the canonical gospels did quite a bit of evolving before they came to be the finished version your reading now.

How could Matthew and John be a follower and author if they never heard a word from the lips of Jesus ?

we just cannot attribute the work to them, period.

 

[Mister Emu]

it is a man made contruct of how people described jesus divinity, argued about it and constantine judged and ruled on it.

*sigh*...

Constantine did not decide the Arian controversy.

 

[outhouse]

*sigh*...

Constantine did not decide the Arian controversy.

did i say he did such a thing in this thread my friend?






read what I stated and now find where I made a mistake.








First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




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Constantine the Great summoned the bishops of the Christian Church to Nicea to address divisions in the Church (mosaic in Hagia Sophia, Constantinople (Istanbul), ca. 1000).


The First Council of Nicaea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in A.D. 325















Its main accomplishments were settlement of the Christological issue of the relationship of Jesus to God the Father




but it did settle to some degree the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ




The Council declared that the Father and the Son are of the same substance and are co-eternal, basing the declaration in the claim that this was a formulation of traditional Christian belief handed down from the Apostles. Under Constantine's influence



The Emperor carried out his earlier statement: everybody who refused to endorse the Creed would be exiled.

 

[Shermana]

it's important to remember that Constantine overturned Nicea later with the Synod of Tyre and banished Athanasius while restoring Arius to good graces. The "Orthodox" had to wait until he died off before they overturned the Synod of Tyre with the Council of Constantinople.

Why would the entire Imperial family convert to Arianism against the grain of their own empire?