The Trinity

[Pegg]

I really agree with the first part.

Not sure the church sold out as much as "were forced" I find the term influenced a little weak in this case.

i dont really buy that

there were a number of influential Christians in high position who opposed the move to call Jesus God, Arius is one such....he was exiled by the christians who supported Constantine...and not only that, but they sat back while Constantine had a lot of early christian literature burned... most of the literature that did not adhere to the idea of Jesus being God

Then someone poisoned him....[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arius"] Arius [/URL]

 

[Mark2020]

i dont really buy that

there were a number of influential Christians in high position who opposed the move to call Jesus God, Arius is one such....he was exiled by the christians who supported Constantine...and not only that, but they sat back while Constantine had a lot of early christian literature burned... most of the literature that did not adhere to the idea of Jesus being God

Then someone poisoned him.... Arius

I think if you read your own link, you'll find somethings in your post that aren't accurate.

 

[Shermana]

Don't forget about the Synod of Tyre where Constantine renounced Nicea and told Athanasius to get lost, it wasn't for a long time after he was dead that the Council of Constantinople overturned Tyre.

One also has to wonder why the Imperial Royal Family would suddenly convert to Arianism against the Grain of their own empire...

 

[JacobEzra.]

Constantine was no Christian, he was a politcal mastermind who sought control of a church that covered a vast area of earth and a lot of people.

the church sold out.

Then I guess you think Christ had lied.

I on the other hand rather follow the Church Christ established and believe he didn't lie.

Go on and believe Christ lied. While your at it, remember you follow a made up religion that didn't come until..how many centuries after Christ?

 

[JacobEzra.]

No the bishops were not in agreement.

Constantine forced a agreement for a unfied church

:thud:
Your so full of it

 

[Shermana]

I on the other hand rather follow the Church Christ established and believe he didn't lie.

So you want to become a Messianic Jew? That's great!

 

[JacobEzra.]

So you want to become a Messianic Jew? That's great!

Sts Peter and Paul spoke out against Judaizers

 

[Shermana]

Sts Peter and Paul spoke out against Judaizers

Oh, so you want to go with the Church PAUL established...got it. I was thinking you meant the ORIGINAL Church like the ones in Jerusalem and Antioch. In that case, you should consider Greek Orthodox, much closer than Catholicism.

Hey, do you know if Paul's companions saw the light but heard no voice or heard a voice but saw no light? That one's been giving Paulines a problem for centuries.

Peter didn't speak out against them btw. Peter was one of them! And 2 Peter's authenticity was questioned even back before the Canon was established.

(PS Paul spoke against Circumcision specifically, the "Judaizers" as he called them were not obeying Mosaic Law even by trying to force gentiles to undergo it since its only commanded for one's offspring.)

 

[JacobEzra.]

Oh, so you want to go with the Church PAUL established...got it. I was thinking you meant the ORIGINAL Church like the ones in Jerusalem and Antioch. In that case, you should consider Greek Orthodox, much closer than Catholicism.

Hey, do you know if Paul's companions saw the light but heard no voice or heard a voice but saw no light? That one's been giving Paulines a problem for centuries.

Peter didn't speak out against them btw. Peter was one of them! And 2 Peter's authenticity was questioned even back before the Canon was established.

(PS Paul spoke against Circumcision specifically, the "Judaizers" as he called them were not obeying Mosaic Law even by trying to force gentiles to undergo it since its only commanded for one's offspring.)

LOL Not the church founded by Christ, with St. Peter as the leader on earth. St. Peter did speak out against Judaizers. In fact, he did so in Jerusalem. Read Acts.

Oh Righttttt, I forgot. According to you its not an acceptable chapter because its authenticity is questionable (according to you). Sorry, I don't cherry pick and claim something is not authentic because it does not follow what I believe. Go play that childish game somewhere else.

 

[Shermana]

(according to you).

Yeah, I'm the first person in the history of the world to question its authenticity.

And then I brought up the fact that it says "Only these 4 rules and no more", and you said "Well he meant more than just those 4". You have a nice way of getting out of the "only these 4 and no more".

I don't think you understand what "Cherry picking" means, otherwise, you can accuse ALL scholarship and questions of verse authenticity as "cherry picking". You cannot just reduce authentic questions of bible verses that scholars and laymen alike have been concerned with as "Childish games". THAT is a childish game. If anything, it looks like you have something to hide when you want to brush aside all legitimate textual criticism.

And then you're assuming that Jewish Peter changed his ways to support this new doctrine (for gentiles) suddenly? I wonder how James handled that. And it was also just for gentiles too, assuming the passage is authentic and not a later addition.

 

[Mark2020]

Don't forget about the Synod of Tyre where Constantine renounced Nicea and told Athanasius to get lost,

And why so?
Not because of theology, but because of false accusations by arains.

 

[outhouse]

:thud:
Your so full of it

you dont know the first thing about the topic at hand

 

[outhouse]

Then I guess you think Christ had lied.

I on the other hand rather follow the Church Christ established and believe he didn't lie.

Go on and believe Christ lied. While your at it, remember you follow a made up religion that didn't come until..how many centuries after Christ?

nothing in her post indicates the christ figure lied about anything

 

[Shermana]

And why so?
Not because of theology, but because of false accusations by arains.

Like what? What kind of false accusations would make an emperor and the royal family change their mind and go against the grain of their entire empire?

Constantine sure seemed to WANT to listen to these "false accusations", maybe the murder and chopped hand thing was a bit much, but the threat to withhold grain from Egypt may have very well been accurate. Regardless, if Constantine was actively looking for a way to trump up charges against Athanasius, that should speak volumes. What kind of false accusations would make him go not just against Athanasius but the entire Church of his empire which he formerly condoned?

 

[JacobEzra.]

And then you're assuming that Jewish Peter changed his ways to support this new doctrine (for gentiles) suddenly? I wonder how James handled that. And it was also just for gentiles too, assuming the passage is authentic and not a later addition.

Yes, the Jewish Apostles taught the Gentiles did not have to follow the mosaic law.

James seemed to handle it well. Especially since nothing in his letters say to follow all of mosaic laws

 

[outhouse]

And why so?
Not because of theology, but because of false accusations by arains.

arains didnt have false accusations, they had a different opinion about the divinity of a created deity.

the bishops roughly 300 of 1800 total sat around and tried to figure out how divine yeshua was and no one would come to a agreement so Constantine put the hammer down and stopped the contrversy. remember this was a man bishops never met or knew and the only thing they had to deal with was scripture written by men who never knew or heard yeshua. they had no clue how divine a man who died 300 years earlier was.

This argement had gone on for a long long time and really isnt followed by :all: today.

 

[Shermana]

Yes, the Jewish Apostles taught the Gentiles did not have to follow the mosaic law.

James seemed to handle it well. Especially since nothing in his letters say to follow all of mosaic laws

Nice of you to chop out the important first half of my reply, Im assuming you have no response to it. Here's the main part that you ducked out of last time. I can only wonder why you avoided this subject twice.

And then I brought up the fact that it says "Only these 4 rules and no more", and you said "Well he meant more than just those 4". You have a nice way of getting out of the "only these 4 and no more".

And if you think James didn't teach adherence to the Law, you're quite mistaken. What "Word" was James talking about considering that there was no Gospel written at this time?

Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.

PAUL even taught adherence to the Law, he's highly misunderstood due to mass spamming of cherry picked quotes as if he contradicts himself.

"

It is not those who hear the Law who are declared righteous, but those who obey it".

Now you say the Apostles didn't teach any of the Law, can you kindly quote what Paul says about women being submissive to their husbands? I asked you earlier if you'd eat blood sausage, and you ducked away from that one too.

 

[Mark2020]

Like what?
sure seemed to WANT to listen

Did you even try to read the wikipedia article?
First Synod of Tyre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"sure seemed to WANT to listen" -> Funny

 

[Shermana]

Ummm, what's so funny exactly? Why would Constantine even bother hearing accusations against this leader of his national church from this "heretical" sect? Why would he go against the entire grain of his entire empire?

 

[JacobEzra.]

And if you think James didn't teach adherence to the Law, you're quite mistaken. What "Word" was James talking about considering that there was no Gospel written at this time?

In the beggining was the Word. And the word was with God. And the Word was God.

PAUL even taught adherence to the Law, he's highly misunderstood due to mass spamming of cherry picked quotes as if he contradicts himself.

lol where does Paul teach that??

"Now you say the Apostles didn't teach any of the Law, can you kindly quote what Paul says about women being submissive to their husbands? I asked you earlier if you'd eat blood sausage, and you ducked away from that one too.

We are told not to eat food with blood in it. And Women were spoken about in number of places. What your point?

Check out the Didache. An old manuscript, which I think sums it all up very well.