The Trinity

[javajo]

We have manuscripts from as early as 50 A.D., less than twenty years after Christ's death and resurrection which say Jesus is God (thus a person of the Trinity): Early Christian faith on Trinity, deity of Christ, personality of the Holy Spirit



50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript

• 
  [*]50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3).

 

[Shermana]

Of course, there's no possibility that this fragmented document could have said something before the "God" like "Son of God". More Trinitarian logic! And I believe the concensus for this fragment is 200 A.D., not 50, where is your source? The earliest dating given, by a FEW wishful thinkers (and I'll give them benefit of the doubt) is around 68 A.D.

64 was originally given a 3rd century date by Charles Huleatt, the one who donated the Manuscript to Magdalen College, and then papyrologist A. S. Hunt studied the manuscript and dated it to the early 4th century. But in reaction to what he thought was far too late a dating for the manuscript, Colin Roberts published the manuscript and gave it a dating of ca. 200, which was confirmed by three other leading papyrologists: Harold Bell, T. C. Skeat and E. G. Turner,[1] and this has been the general accepted date of

64 since.

 

[javajo]

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5).

80 AD Hermas "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father's adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient" (The Shepherd 12).

40 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge
God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).

Early Christian faith on Trinity, deity of Christ, personality of the Holy Spirit

 

[Shermana]

None of those verses support the actual Trinity doctrine, and they fully support mine of Jesus being the first created and highest created thing who is the foreman of Creation. Once again, it really helps if you understand the same Philo "logos Theology" that John's intended audience were well acquainted with.

I highly recommend a site other than Bible.ca for your links. I do at least agree with their view that all the Ignatian Epistles are frauds.

 

[Mark2020]

Once again, it really helps if you understand the same Philo "logos Theology" that John's intended audience were well acquainted with.

Given the number of times you were proved wrong here, I think you're the one who should try to understand something new.

 

[outhouse]

We have manuscripts from as early as 50 A.D., less than twenty years after Christ's death and resurrection which say Jesus is God (thus a person of the Trinity): Early Christian faith on Trinity, deity of Christ, personality of the Holy Spirit



50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript

• 
  [*]50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3).

you need to research before you post known trash.

Huleatt Manuscript is 200AD and does not support the trinity at all.




much of your link is a flat inability to understand simple scholarly concepts.

anyone who uses genesis for proof of the trinity is using nothing but imagination.


it is known that when gensis was written hebrews were polytheistic and had many deities.

 

[icebuddy]

real life forms, not mythical ones

What Real life forms are you talking about? BTW, God is not a myth. Science today is trying to explain what caused Something to Spring from Nothing (Big Bang). Many have come to the conclussion of another Power outside the laws of Time, Matter, and space.

Quote - For scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He scaled the mountains of ignorance , he about to conquer the highest peak, as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of Theologians who have been sitting there for centuries"

I believe your full of it
sources please.

i will recheck my lecure notes and get back to you. But it is true that science believes life could only exist in the Milky Way Galaxy, preciecly on Earth.

science says just the opposite, there is no way we could be the only planet with life

Old Science - That was when science believed the universe to be infinet and stagnant (Always existing with no boundries) They believe Earth is very close to the center of the universe as well.

fact is its very possible we already have life found in meteors from eslewhere

Dead life. BTW - if the earth is Billions of years old as thought, then all Meteors would have been swallowed up by the suns gravity over that time. Do you know what answer science has for this problem? When you find the answer, you will also find out that you have more faith than I do.

In Love,
Tom

 

[icebuddy]

which can be said for deities, angles, spirits and demons or any other mythical being

Thats a good one, but we believe angels and God to be of the spiritual realm. However, next time you write todays date, remember that you just acknolledge something BIG happend 2011 years ago that impacted our planet. That God entered our physical world through Jesus Christ and thats a historical fact.

 

[icebuddy]

true

but one thing is 100% certain

theology will never enter the discussion

Dont you think its ignorant for someone to claim there is a power ourside Time, Space, and matter and not talk about it?

how do you feel about Constaintines influence on the Nicean creed?

325 AD - 318 Bishops - was not run nor influenced by Constaintine, although many people will want you to believe otherwise.

 

[icebuddy]

None of those verses support the actual Trinity doctrine.

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

john inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote that by calling God his Father that Jesus was making himself equal to God. Do you believe this?

In Love,
Tom

 

[outhouse]

God is not a myth.

actually he has not ever made it past a myth status.



we know man creates deities, end of story.

i will recheck my lecure notes and get back to you

cool beans

That was when science believed the universe to be infinet and stagnant (Always existing with no boundries)

who mentioned old science?? even then no one has ever said the universe ws ever stagnent.

then all Meteors would have been swallowed up by the suns gravity over that time.

false, blatantly at that.

Dead life.

but life none the less.

 

[outhouse]

That God entered our physical world through Jesus Christ and thats a historical fact

that right there is more mythical theology then histoical fact.

history follows that if there was a jesus he was a mortal man who was a baptized traveling teacher of judaism who ticked off the romans and was quickly put to death. His theology grew only after death and written about by men who never knew or heard a single word pass the mans lips.

 

[outhouse]

Dont you think its ignorant for someone to claim there is a power ourside Time, Space, and matter and not talk about it?

No I think its a mistake to attribute a deity to anything in nature. this is a mistake made by ancient man and we have grown past it but its sadly still being done.

we know the world was not created in a week, we know man wasnt made in a day. We know how the hebrew culture and religion formed around 1250BC and exactly how and why it created it deities as needed. we also now everything on the planet evolved. we also know not one thing can be attributed to a any man made deities in nature.

 

[outhouse]

325 AD - 318 Bishops - was not run nor influenced by Constaintine, although many people will want you to believe otherwise.

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The First Council of Nicaea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in A.D. 325


it did settle to some degree the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ


The First Council of Nicea was convened by Constantine


Constantine had invited all 1800 bishops of the Christian church



Result of the debate

The Council declared that the Father and the Son are of the same substance and are co-eternal, basing the declaration in the claim that this was a formulation of traditional Christian belief handed down from the Apostles. Under Constantine's influence

 

[JacobEzra.]

First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The First Council of Nicaea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in A.D. 325


it did settle to some degree the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ


The First Council of Nicea was convened by Constantine


Constantine had invited all 1800 bishops of the Christian church



Result of the debate

The Council declared that the Father and the Son are of the same substance and are co-eternal, basing the declaration in the claim that this was a formulation of traditional Christian belief handed down from the Apostles. Under Constantine's influence

And according to you.......
1 man influenced 1800 Bishops into error?

 

[chazz]

You are right, the devil made me do it,

 

[chazz]

Most people believe they have a soul, if that is the case then they are two

 

[Pegg]

And according to you.......
1 man influenced 1800 Bishops into error?

Bishops who would have done anything to secure the freedom and security of christians at a time when persecution had seen many of them killed, yes, you bet ya.

You know what they say.... "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

 

[Mark2020]

Result of the debate

The Council declared that the Father and the Son are of the same substance and are co-eternal, basing the declaration in the claim that this was a formulation of traditional Christian belief handed down from the Apostles. Under Constantine's influence

At least be faithful when you copy from Wikipedia

Result of the debate

The Council declared that the Father and the Son are of the same substance and are co-eternal, basing the declaration in the claim that this was a formulation of traditional Christian belief handed down from the Apostles. Under Constantine's influence, this belief was expressed by the bishops in what would be known thereafter as the Nicene Creed.

Misconceptions

The Role of Constantine

While Constantine wanted a unified church after the council for political reasons, he did not force the Homoousian view of Christ's nature on the council, nor commission a Bible at the council that omitted books he did not approve of, although he did later commission Bibles. In fact, Constantine had little theological understanding of the issues at stake, and did not particularly care which view of Christ's nature prevailed so long as it resulted in a unified church. This can be seen in his initial acceptance of the Homoousian view of Christ's nature, only to abandon the belief several years later for political reasons, under the influence of Eusebius of Nicomedia and others.

 

[outhouse]

Bishops who would have done anything to secure the freedom and security of christians at a time when persecution had seen many of them killed, yes, you bet ya.

You know what they say.... "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Constantine was a great emprorer for christians

BUT the bishops were not in agreement in any way shape or form and Constaintine forced a decision on one side, not all of the bishops. Constantine just wanted the bishops to be unified.

It was not the bishops choice at all