The Trinity

[Muffled]

[as if to a very small child] "Its -- not -- modalism, mkay?"
God doesn't just appear under various guises. God is embodied in these Persons. A Person is an individual embodiment.

Indefinite article or no, it still means the same thing, since the texts make it clear that God is One.

Well bully for you. Perhaps you'd be better off defending your tired old claim that Xy is nothing more than Judaism-warmed-over.

Well, if you don't want to be liked by your peers, that's your business, I suppose...

Embodiment is a guise in that it does not reveal the nature of God in itself but God reveals Himself through the attributes of the body ie speech, actions, seeing and hearing.

However "person" makes more sense for Jesus as opposed to God revealing Himself in a burning bush which is not a person. However the Father is never an embodiment in essence, so person in that sense does not refer to Him.

This is where the idea of God reveaing Himself breaks down since He has done it many times in many ways besides the Trinity.

It appears to me that the Trinity derives its significance from the fact that it carries the authority of God ie baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. (No-one is ever baptised in the name of the burning bush or John the Baptist although some were by the latter and Paul required them to be baptised again under authority.)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It appears to me that the Trinity derives its significance from the fact that it carries the authority of God ie baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. (No-one is ever baptised in the name of the burning bush or John the Baptist although some were by the latter and Paul required them to be baptised again under authority.)

'In recognition of' or 'representative of'

As at Deut. [10 v 8; 18 vs 5,7] besides baptized 'in the name of' can mean to speak or act as a representative such as: 'bless' in the name of, or 'minister' in the name of.

So, Matthew [28v19] to baptize 'in the name of' would be in recognition of the Father, Son and God's holy spirit.

Just as at Psalm [104 v 30] does not make God's spirit a person but can be recognized as the power or force that is used by God.

 

[Shermana]

It appears to me that the Trinity derives its significance from the fact that it carries the authority of God ie baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Too bad for such a case that Matthew 28:19 is most likely a later interpolation by Trinitarians and originally said "In my name" as is quoted by Eusebius and it seems Origen and other witnesses, along with how it's used in Acts. Along with the extra-canonical writings that reference it, we can see such as in the "Ignatian Epistles" and Chapter 7 of the Didache that someone was going around inserting that verse.

 

[F0uad]

I don't think the Trinity can be explained by scripture nor by logical understanding i think its a ''mysterious'' thing to belief in therefore the thread should have been created in: Theological Concepts

Butt this is my opinion i am willing to reconsider but trust me when i say there is no good explanation for the trinity and i have been asking this for over 4years.. I am not sure why i never got a answer on the one-ness of god while in Islam and Judaism it is so simply.. even in the Biblical scripture God is One and that's all to it period.

 

[obi one]

I don't think the Trinity can be explained by scripture nor by logical understanding i think its a ''mysterious'' thing to belief in therefore the thread should have been created in: Theological Concepts

Butt this is my opinion i am willing to reconsider but trust me when i say there is no good explanation for the trinity and i have been asking this for over 4years.. I am not sure why i never got a answer on the one-ness of god while in Islam and Judaism it is so simply.. even in the Biblical scripture God is One and that's all to it period.

You have to understand the context that surrounds the Trinity concept. It was originally adopted into the Roman Church at the Council of Nicene, and had the power of Rome behind the original Nicene Creed, which included the Trinity doctrine. When finalized in the Athanasian Creed, you would "perish everlastingly" if you did not believe in this man made construction. Should you deviate from this construct, the church was more likely than not to burn you alive during this life, and sentence you to "perish everlastingly", with respect to the next life. The whole thing is blantantly false, but you can't get rid of it because Athanasius also was the originator of the bible's current cannon. If one is wrong, then the other one may be wrong as well. But of course, the cannon contains both good and bad, and that is probably for a reason.

 

[sojourner]

You have to understand the context that surrounds the Trinity concept. It was originally adopted into the Roman Church at the Council of Nicene, and had the power of Rome behind the original Nicene Creed, which included the Trinity doctrine. When finalized in the Athanasian Creed, you would "perish everlastingly" if you did not believe in this man made construction. Should you deviate from this construct, the church was more likely than not to burn you alive during this life, and sentence you to "perish everlastingly", with respect to the next life. The whole thing is blantantly false, but you can't get rid of it because Athanasius also was the originator of the bible's current cannon. If one is wrong, then the other one may be wrong as well. But of course, the cannon contains both good and bad, and that is probably for a reason.

the doctrine was formulated then, but the idea was around before that. The whole thing isn't blatantly false, although there are some problematic details. The issue is that they tried to explain it too completely, rather than maintaining mystery.

 

[Washingtonian]

The Bible contains neither the word nor the idea of a "trinity". Trinities of gods are common in pagan religions, however.

Read the following verses in the Bible:

There is only one God:

Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:29.

The Father is God:

Matthew 6:9.

Jesus is God:

Matthew 1:23. John 1:1. Refer to John 1:14. That tells you that Jesus is the Word. John 8:23-24. John 8:58. Refer to Exodus 3:13-14. Romans 9:5. Titus 2:11-13. Hebrews 1:8. Second Peter 1:1.

The Holy Spirit is God:

Acts 5:1-4.

Do not read these passages in the New World Translation. In that translation, some passages have been corrupted to obliterate the deity of Christ. Read the King James Version, the New King James Version, the New American Standard Bible, or the English Standard Version.

So, to sum up, we have scripture telling us that there is one God, and that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[F0uad]

Read the following verses in the Bible:

There is only one God:

Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:29.

The Father is God:

Matthew 6:9.

Jesus is God:

Matthew 1:23. John 1:1. Refer to John 1:14. That tells you that Jesus is the Word. John 8:23-24. John 8:58. Refer to Exodus 3:13-14. Romans 9:5. Titus 2:11-13. Hebrews 1:8. Second Peter 1:1.

The Holy Spirit is God:

Acts 5:1-4.

Do not read these passages in the New World Translation. In that translation, some passages have been corrupted to obliterate the deity of Christ. Read the King James Version, the New King James Version, the New American Standard Bible, or the English Standard Version.

So, to sum up, we have scripture telling us that there is one God, and that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Yes yes we know this already,


Anyway the ''Word'' can also refer to the knowledge of god that Jesus(p) was already in the knowledge of god but anyway lets address the real issue.

If you say that God as one being is also three persons/beings that are different then you do not have the same person any-more in the three. ''Different'' means Different therefore The Father is one god, The son is one god and the holy-spirit is what directly leads to Paganism.

So its a mystery and cannot be explained even if you change words or meanings.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus is God:

Matthew 1:23. John 1:1. Refer to John 1:14. That tells you that Jesus is the Word. John 8:23-24. John 8:58. Refer to Exodus 3:13-14. Romans 9:5. Titus 2:11-13. Hebrews 1:8. Second Peter 1:1.

Here we go again:

Matthew 1:23: The name "God is with us" does not mean that the person named such is god himself, and use of this verse represents a lack of knowledge of how Hebrew names work and assumes he was the first person to ever be named Immanuel.

John 1:1 says "And a god was the word", anarthrous Theos that Trinitarian translations like to brush aside. See Acts 12:22.

John 1:14: Not a Trinitarian proof text, only if you go by the flawed Trinitarian rendering of John 1:1c.

John 8:23-24 is not Jesus saying "I am" as in "I am I am" (and the name itself isn't "I am" but "I shall be"), but he is simply responding to a question, "Are you Jesus" "Yes I am", if you think anytime he says "I am" to any question that it doesn't matter the context of the answer, then why is anyone not saying they are god if they say "I am"? It's rather silly to assume anytime Jesus says "I am" to assume he's declaring to be the one named in Exodus 3:14-15 which actually says "I shall be".

John 8:58 See above. Many trinitarian renditions have it as "I have been", and the name itself in Exodus 3:14-15 is "I shall be".

Romans 9:5 This is a very interesting verse, the translation is a bit foggy, but here is what it actually says: G-d blessed to the ages, not "G-d over all". It's a favorite of Trinitarians so long as they don't actually have to go over the actual grammar.

Young's Literal Translation
whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

Titus 2:11-13 is an example like 2 Peter 1:1 of "Sharp's rule" being misapplied. The word "And" does not mean they are the same being. Also, there's the issue that Titus is widely considered to not have been written by Paul in the first place.

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalms, and Hebrew has no Vocative Case, so it should read "God is thy throne", even CARM admits this is a "possible' translation though they say it "Makes no sense", but apparently makes sense for G-d to be one's fortress and rock.

Do not read these passages in the New World Translation. In that translation, some passages have been corrupted to obliterate the deity of Christ.

But the NWT was not the first to translate it as such, and they do so for grammatical reasons. Theological presumption is the only "defense" against this.

70-John-1-1-Truths

If anything the NWT is one of the most honest (though not best) translations.

Read the King James Version, the New King James Version, the New American Standard Bible, or the English Standard Version.

Because you said so?

So, to sum up, we have scripture telling us that there is one God, and that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.[

Not at all.

 

[sojourner]

Theological presumption is the only "defense" against this.

apparently, it's enough, for it's a theological construct that works -- and has worked for a long time.

 

[FreeTHinker4eva]

All this discussion, all this intelligence demonstrated here. Yet here we are. At an impasse? does anyone ever change their minds here? anyone really interested in a perception of possible truth? For me, I still don't see the problem conceptualizing nor understanding the concept of Trinity as regards a One God. Aside from new age christians now saying God and the human personality named Jesus are the one and same God et al. Coming from my own perspective -and that is all any of us can do- Our Soul is a God-fragment, resident within each of us. Our body is the vehicle. Our mind the coordinator of all information. No one can see 'mind' yet no one questions the mind's existence. None confuse mind with the physical brain. Yet one houses and is the vehicle for the other. The Brain performs functions the conscious mind does not. Yet no one argues the mind's supremacy over the brain. If you can grasp this concept and we all do, you can grasp the trinity. The Spirit within Jesus is the oneness with God The All in all Jesus speaks of. We all have it. The Soul. Jesus as a human personality realized the highest state of being any human ever will. That is why we aspire to emulate the sublime personality of Jesus as we know we are not the totality of God. To say though God has nothing to do with human body -I find amusing as there is no outside of God. God is within and without us. God is in every cell God is also not. God is the All in All. reflect. be back in a minute. Every cell reflects a microcosm of the macrocosm, a miniature of the universe if you will is contained within each cell. Ponder that..I sure have-wondrous. God is One with All why is the Trinity a problem for anyone to grasp? Spirit does not require a body to exist. Spirit requires a body to better understand a physical existence in the world of matter.

It's all about experience. With a capital E. This is an evolutionary universe, perhaps part of a multiverse, who knows? fun to reach for. It all comes down to-Why? with a capital W =For experience-every last one. God is not only Trinity. God is not limited by Trinity,yet Trinity encompasses the all in all.

While also and always grasping how much remains mystery to we humans of finite mind while housing infinite spirit. Personality is our uniqueness our identifier here, our essence there-minus the ego-thank God.
It is evident to me in my life that I am a Spirit being having a human experience to quote a phrase that simply rings true over here.
I thoroughly enjoy many Sciences. I see no disconnect between science and spirit in my philosophy(s) of Theology. Frankly; the concepts of Spirit and the laws of energy I grasp as interchangeable. We simply use 2 doors into 2 worlds speaking 2 different languages to explain the same thing. For example-Personaity is also purposive energy. I'll leave it at that for now.:beach::goldfish:

 

[sojourner]

I like your post.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

All this discussion, all this intelligence demonstrated here. Yet here we are. At an impasse? does anyone ever change their minds here? anyone really interested in a perception of possible truth? For me, I still don't see the problem conceptualizing nor understanding the concept of Trinity as regards a One God. Aside from new age christians now saying God and the human personality named Jesus are the one and same God et al. Coming from my own perspective -and that is all any of us can do- Our Soul is a God-fragment, resident within each of us. Our body is the vehicle. Our mind the coordinator of all information. No one can see 'mind' yet no one questions the mind's existence. None confuse mind with the physical brain. Yet one houses and is the vehicle for the other. The Brain performs functions the conscious mind does not. Yet no one argues the mind's supremacy over the brain. If you can grasp this concept and we all do, you can grasp the trinity. The Spirit within Jesus is the oneness with God The All in all Jesus speaks of. We all have it. The Soul. Jesus as a human personality realized the highest state of being any human ever will. That is why we aspire to emulate the sublime personality of Jesus as we know we are not the totality of God. To say though God has nothing to do with human body -I find amusing as there is no outside of God. God is within and without us. God is in every cell God is also not. God is the All in All. reflect. be back in a minute. Every cell reflects a microcosm of the macrocosm, a miniature of the universe if you will is contained within each cell. Ponder that..I sure have-wondrous. God is One with All why is the Trinity a problem for anyone to grasp? Spirit does not require a body to exist. Spirit requires a body to better understand a physical existence in the world of matter.
It's all about experience. With a capital E. This is an evolutionary universe, perhaps part of a multiverse, who knows? fun to reach for. It all comes down to-Why? with a capital W =For experience-every last one. God is not only Trinity. God is not limited by Trinity,yet Trinity encompasses the all in all.
While also and always grasping how much remains mystery to we humans of finite mind while housing infinite spirit. Personality is our uniqueness our identifier here, our essence there-minus the ego-thank God.
It is evident to me in my life that I am a Spirit being having a human experience to quote a phrase that simply rings true over here.
I thoroughly enjoy many Sciences. I see no disconnect between science and spirit in my philosophy(s) of Theology. Frankly; the concepts of Spirit and the laws of energy I grasp as interchangeable. We simply use 2 doors into 2 worlds speaking 2 different languages to explain the same thing. For example-Personaity is also purposive energy. I'll leave it at that for now.

Was Adam a Spirit being? No way. Adam had No pre-human existence.
Before being created from the dust of the ground Adam did Not exist.
The spirit realm [invisible] was created before the [visible] physical realm.

Adam did Not become animated before receiving the 'breath' of life. Gen. 2v7
Nowhere does it say receiving a 'Spirit' of life at Genesis 2 v 7.
Adam was Not from the spirit realm, but earthly physical realm.
No 'Spirit Being' inhabited Adam's body.

At death Adam returned to dust Not spirit.
The 'soul that sins dies' according to Ezekiel 18 vs 2,20.
Adam sinned, Adam died.
The soul can be destroyed. - Acts 3 v 23

We all have the capacity for spirituality, but that does Not make us a Spirit.
Only resurrection to heaven can give one a 'spirit body' as Jesus was resurrected out of hell by God in a spirit body. - Acts 2 vs 27,31,32.
No one who died before Jesus died will have a heavenly resurrection.
All who died before Jesus died [such as king David Acts 2 v 34] will have an earthly physical resurrection on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. [John 3 v 13]

 

[FreeTHinker4eva]

THe breath of life IS spirit. yes the only immortal is God/Trinity et al. No, Angels are not immortal. neither are we. All Souls are Gods-Ezekiel10-> Therefore, all souls can be destroyed. You have no idea what Adam was before being formed from dust. You have no idea who Jesu was before his earthly sojourn either. If you only reference the old testament that is all the information you will get. Hebraic Jews only use the old testament-and believe in no heaven and no hell as Christians do. Jews believe in these paradises not Christians. That perhaps explains your disconnect here as Jesus came to reveal God thpough it was heretical to do so-got him killed. As in A God of Mercy, of love and as approachable. I digress, That is for another thread. Adam also does not account for the whole of humanity either or there would have been NO land of Nod to banish Cain to now would there have been? God is One. God is the All in All. God is also whatever God is-GOD is not dependant upon finite tiny minded humans who deny anything they fail to grasp from their tiny universal view hahaha. AS IF humans know anything beyond their noses and most of them blind to even that tunnel vision. Think outside your finite human frame of reference.There is more to this Universe, to God than is conceived of in your paltry philosophy Horatio. you know no more of a certain than any one else. It is fun to discuss though. I just gave you an excellent explanation of Trinity. not my fault you can't hear, see, or read it. Too bad. That's all[there is] to it, period..

 

[Shermana]

Are you saying by your idea of the "Trinity" that Jesus is not the incarnation of G-d but a separate being and soul that represents His will?

If so, we're mostly in agreement.

 

[FreeTHinker4eva]

Are you saying by your idea of the "Trinity" that Jesus is not the incarnation of G-d but a separate being and soul that represents His will?

If so, we're mostly in agreement.

Well, Trinity wasn't my idea lol, Trinity as doctrine, I get the question. I believe Jesus as Teacher represents God as THE WORD. Jesus the Christ as The Eternal Son-incarnate.
Jesus also had a very human personality in every way. Jesus of Nazareth was wholly human. Jesus the Christ; wholly Divine. Beyond human bodies, beyond all mortals[angels; et. al]
God is the All in All. The Eternal 'Son'[WORD] this also remains part mystery, God who lived a human experience as Jesus incarnate. God as Holy Spirit <-Spirit of Truth.=Trinity. Every Christian loves to argue Genesis: God and The Word was with God<-explain that away.
Jesus taught us about the dispensation of GOD=Holy Spirit at Pentecost first the Jews then the Gentiles. Explain that away. All these Bible versions yet this truth remains one truth inviolate, all else altered and revised. Except this.
The closer we engage with God, from the inside out, the more we are able to hear/recognize God as Spirit of truth or feel, however our Soul responds best. God is always within we need go nowhere else to commune to talk with God. We go to church if we choose to, to formally worship and praise God as Father, Jesus as Eternal son, Holy Spirit as Truth. The Breath of life IS our soul; our God fragment resident within us all. Awakening our soul for us is a choice=Free Will. We determine how this journey goes as it passes through our mortal bodies and engages our soul. What we do here, the decisions of spiritual import here, imprints on our Soul.
Trinity-not three persons with corporeal bodies. drop the human perspective, adopt the spiritual as energy perspective and may your soul awaken. Would you really presume to limit God? to physical bodies? do you or anyone really think an old white man breathed into Adam? think outside the box. Question as Jesus taught us, then pay attention as Jesus also taught us, for you are ALWAYS answered. This is one.
May you feel God's love always.:goldfish:

 

[Muffled]

'In recognition of' or 'representative of'

As at Deut. [10 v 8; 18 vs 5,7] besides baptized 'in the name of' can mean to speak or act as a representative such as: 'bless' in the name of, or 'minister' in the name of.

So, Matthew [28v19] to baptize 'in the name of' would be in recognition of the Father, Son and God's holy spirit.

Just as at Psalm [104 v 30] does not make God's spirit a person but can be recognized as the power or force that is used by God.

This verse says otherwise. John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

God who is a spirit throughout the universe has the power. It is not a separate entity of its own. That would be like trying to personify God's wisdom.

God is a person in the second definition of the word meaning an entity with personality. Does a person talk? God talks also. Does a person see? God sees also. Does a person think? God thinks also. God as we, does not do those things in the body when He is strictly in a spiritual state.

 

[Muffled]

Too bad for such a case that Matthew 28:19 is most likely a later interpolation by Trinitarians and originally said "In my name" as is quoted by Eusebius and it seems Origen and other witnesses, along with how it's used in Acts. Along with the extra-canonical writings that reference it, we can see such as in the "Ignatian Epistles" and Chapter 7 of the Didache that someone was going around inserting that verse.

You can't see that because you were not there to eyewitness it. What you have is a theory that can't be proven.

Are you saying that God who promoted the concept of the Trinity would not have included it in His text? From my perspective it is easier to view "in my name" as an aberration since Jesus always deferred authority to the Father.

 

[Muffled]

I don't think the Trinity can be explained by scripture nor by logical understanding i think its a ''mysterious'' thing to belief in therefore the thread should have been created in: Theological Concepts

Butt this is my opinion i am willing to reconsider but trust me when i say there is no good explanation for the trinity and i have been asking this for over 4years.. I am not sure why i never got a answer on the one-ness of god while in Islam and Judaism it is so simply.. even in the Biblical scripture God is One and that's all to it period.

Father: God outside a body.

Son: God dwelling within one body.

Paraclete: God dwelling in the bodies of believers.

The perception is that God is divided up but that is not the case. It is one God outside the body and dwelling in the bodies. This is possible because of His omniprsence.

That is a preposterous statement. That effectively postulates an empty God. There is much more to God than His oneness. Let us say: Allah Ahkbah (please excuse my spelling, my Arabic is atrocius) God is Great. Certainly this attribute of God is as important as His oneness.

 

[SageTree]

I think there are good 'explanations' for the Trinity, but the 'reason' for the Trinity... idk.....

I think it's not emphasized enough that it comes back to a United and Absolutely Monotheistic ends.

There is too much externalizing already happening in many religions, without giving the 'in' and 'out' credence.

If God is everywhere, there doesn't need to be a formula for it, imo.

Like I said.... there are good 'explanations', but is it saying too much about obvious things,

Why 'separate' God?

Just my two cents, this is one reason I stress being a Unitarian/Non-Dual Christian.