The two or three witness rule of Jehovah's Witnesses

[kjw47]

To understand the two witness rule as it applies to the accusations of children is to be putting the written law ahead of reasonableness.

This is how it works: A child has the courage to admit an older person treated her wrongly. An accusation is brought up against the perpetrator to the elders in a congregation. The elders talk to the accused. The accused denies any wrong doing. The case is dropped. The reason why is the elders do not have enough evidence to act. If the accused does it again to another child, then there is enough evidence to go forward with it.

The whole world is saying---no God I wont listen to you and that is what is your post is trying to say as well.
If one was accused once--no parent would let a child go near him or her so be real.

 

[savagewind]

If one was accused once--no parent would let a child go near him or her so be real.

What?

You didn't answer the question. If the brother can't be convicted by the elders in the congregation no one will KNOW. Or are you saying the parents who know will tell everyone else? I don't think that is how it works in most congregations. Are you a Jehovah's Witness or not?

 

[savagewind]

The whole world is saying---no God I wont listen to you and that is what is your post is trying to say as well.

I thought I was saying the opposite. I said the other withness is Jessu and then there is even another witness who is Jehovah. 1. the child 2. Jesus 3. Jehovah That make THREE. The governing body won't count Jesus or Jehovah so it is THEM who are saying "no god".

 

[savagewind]

Here is a puzzle for your thinking.

The dishonorable one who caused grief in the child is a ministerial servant. Ministerial servants are appointed because of their good behavior. They reflect Jesus Christ so they are given responsibiilites in the congregation. But when questioned he says "No! of course not!". And because of the two witness rule (that YOU agree with) things remain the same. NOW HOW will the rest in the congregation know what he did to keep their children away? What if the bad man was an elder????? What if he chose the child he wanted to go door to door WITH? What if he asked another child to go with him in the presence of the first child's parent?

Can you actually talking about the question?

 

[savagewind]

It is possible that deciding a case strickly with the two witness rule is a life or death matter. It is in two ways. The first way is real. If a child has been hurt by someone in a trusted position and the trauma is too much for him or her, the child might later commit suicide. But if the congregation responded fairly to the accusation and showed the child kind understanding, it might help. To ignore the pleas of the child make the situation much worse.

And the other one most people do not view as real but you do. To be violated by someone who should be trusted but then see that nobody cares can prove without a doubt that God isn't really active in the congregation and so the family leaves it. According to you when a person leaves it they will then be destined to die at Armegeddon if they don't come back. But how can they come back if it was proved to them God isn't really there?

 

[savagewind]

Here is another pair of moccasins to try on. Someone with priviledges in the congregation treats you criminally. You finally get up the courage to report it but those to whom you report it to can't do anything so the situation remains the same. Now each time you go to the meeting there he is in his important position that you are told is a blessing from Jehovah. What would you think of Jehovah? What would you think of yourself?

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

The Jehovah's Witnesses pattern themselves after the early Christian congregation. To the congregations Paul wrote "This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.". And of course he was Jewish and he knew this; Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

They use what the Bible says about two witnesses to set free members who are accused of child sexual abuse.

But there is a second witness. Every matter in the Christian congregation should be settle with prayer. "Where two or more are gathered in my name" says Jesus "I am there". Do the Jehovah's Witnesses think that Jesus does not know whenever a child is abused?

Matthew 10:29 Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.

I wasn't aware that they did that, It can't be much worse than the way the Roman Catholic Church does in shuffling priests around from Diocese to Diocese. What worries me even more than that is that their children cannot receive blood transfusions... they just let them suffer and die. It really is quite sad.

 

[savagewind]

I wasn't aware that they did that, It can't be much worse than the way the Roman Catholic Church does in shuffling priests around from Diocese to Diocese. What worries me even more than that is that their children cannot receive blood transfusions... they just let them suffer and die. It really is quite sad.

Unfortunitely for the families of children in need of blood transfusion there is plenty scripture pointing to the truth of their stand. Personally I do not agree with them that blood as food and blood as medicine is the same. When I was a JW I trusted God not to put me in a situation where I would need to decide for the congregation over the life of my child.

But I think the two witness rule is different. There is not enough Bible information imo to apply it to cases involving children. I think it's about theocratic order, not criminality.

 

[savagewind]

My opinion of Paul was shaken up badly today. So I prayed about it.

17 Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. 18 For the scripture says, “You must not muzzle a bull when it is threshing out the grain,” also, “The worker is worthy of his wages.” 19 Do not accept an accusation against older man except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 Reprove before all onlookers those who practice sin, as a warning to the rest. 21 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to observe these instructions without any prejudice or partiality. NWT

It does look like Paul has put the elder above the child. I don't want to gather to someone who thinks so. (Not forsake gathering together Hebrews 10:25).

The answer I got from praying was "it's not a rule, it's a guide". They made it into a rule. Making it into a rule makes Paul and Jehovah look very bad.

 

[kjw47]

Here is another pair of moccasins to try on. Someone with priviledges in the congregation treats you criminally. You finally get up the courage to report it but those to whom you report it to can't do anything so the situation remains the same. Now each time you go to the meeting there he is in his important position that you are told is a blessing from Jehovah. What would you think of Jehovah? What would you think of yourself?

What if you were Bathshebas husbands brother and you saw Gods elite spiritual king commit fornication with her and sent your brother to the front lines to be killed --and then God forgave him and you had to serve David as king daily? Same principal---at judgement it is you and the judge. Nothing that other men do has anything to do with how you serve God his required way.--- Does not God teach in order for us to receive his forgivness--first we must forgive.

 

[savagewind]

The difference between a rule and a guide.

A rule: Obey this.

A guide: consider this.

If the case involves a child then this other consideration trumps what Paul said. "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea." Matthew 9:42

 

[kjw47]

Here is a puzzle for your thinking.

The dishonorable one who caused grief in the child is a ministerial servant. Ministerial servants are appointed because of their good behavior. They reflect Jesus Christ so they are given responsibiilites in the congregation. But when questioned he says "No! of course not!". And because of the two witness rule (that YOU agree with) things remain the same. NOW HOW will the rest in the congregation know what he did to keep their children away? What if the bad man was an elder????? What if he chose the child he wanted to go door to door WITH? What if he asked another child to go with him in the presence of the first child's parent?

Can you actually talking about the question?

If one is accused of paedophelia--no parent would allow that one near their children--no matter what position they are in. And God will expose their transgressions.

 

[savagewind]

What if you were Bathshebas husbands brother and you saw Gods elite spiritual king commit fornication with her and sent your brother to the front lines to be killed --and then God forgave him and you had to serve David as king daily? Same principal---at judgement it is you and the judge. Nothing that other men do has anything to do with how you serve God his required way.--- Does not God teach in order for us to receive his forgivness--first we must forgive.

Forgiveness comes AFTER the cessation of a sin. Not before. Or should we forgive sinning?

David was very sorry for his sin. An elder pediophile who denies it is hardly David.

 

[savagewind]

If one is accused of paedophelia--no parent would allow that one near their children--no matter what position they are in. And God will expose their transgressions.

You cannot hear me. The parent of the child who was assaulted will not let the child near the man who did it. Of course! The question is "WHAT about the OTHERS who do not know about the crime?"

 

[savagewind]

In the first place a child is assaulted because his parents do not know the elder is a luster after children. After the crime a parent will surely stay away from the elder (if at all possible). HOW will the others know of it?

 

[savagewind]

The conclusion, everything having been heard, to keep your children safe keep away from the Jehovah's Witness religion. Or go there to save your life but don't trust anyone there.

 

[savagewind]

How will Jehovah's Witnesses know there is an elder among them lusting after children? Are Jehovah's Witnesses not suppose to trust who Jehovah trusts?

Another way to put it is this. A man is trusted to receive oversight of the congregation but should not be trusted with children. Correct?

 

[savagewind]

An abuser who is judged repentant by a committee of elders is given a 'public reproof', wherein it is announced to the congregation that the named individual "has been reproved", though the nature of their crime is not stated.[26] Such a person is automatically debarred from serving in any appointed position in the congregation, however privileges can be restored in the future depending on whether he or she is deemed by the branch office to be a "known molester".[27] Some time later, a talk may be given to the congregation, discussing the type of sin and the need to be on guard against it, but the reproved individual is not named in connection with this talk.[28] When reprimanded, sex offenders may not offer public prayers, read paragraphs during congregation studies, or be given even minor responsibilities in the congregation, such as handling microphones or distributing literature in the Kingdom Hall.
Sex offenders are still permitted to participate in the congregation's house-to-house preaching. According to the Watch Tower Society's spokesperson, J. R. Brown, such ones are only allowed to preach when accompanied by a responsible adult.[29]

Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the question. A person's crimes are not announced to the congregation so OTHER parents should not know there is a sex offender among them.

Does no one see a problem with that?

 

[savagewind]

It does not make sense that I should go to the Jehovah's Witnesses to be saved but if I have children I should not trust their elders.

John 3:10 - 12 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

 

[kjw47]

Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the question. A person's crimes are not announced to the congregation so OTHER parents should not know there is a sex offender among them.

Does no one see a problem with that?

Believe me--word gets around quickly of the offense.
Has wiki attended meetings and taken in knowledge for the last 50 years---no.
The Jw teachers aren't stupid--- things are done properly according to Gods rules--not mans.
If the parent of the accuser do not go to the police as instructed to it rest' on them. One can also choose the path of forgiveness with wisdom though.

Is what David did worse with Bathsheba and her husband?( an ended life by Davids doing, to steal his wife))
Wouldn't most point fingers and say--far removed from God( David) but he repented and God forgave him and remained Gods elite spiritual king.

Too much false bull being said about what occurs with paediophilia in the JW org.