The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

[Father Heathen]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. The point is that the Founding Fathers were at least nominally Christian. That means that they allowed themselves to be seen as Christian, but didn't really believe in Christianity. This would have been more for the sake of appearances than anything else. They were in fact Christians in name only. That is supported by them, including Jefferson, giong to church. You're right that Jefferson going to church would mean no more than you going to church. That's the point. He only did it to keep up airs, not because he believed it. We are not saying that they were Christians, we're saying that they pretended to be Christians.

When you say A is nominally, or in name only, B, it means that A is not actually B, but calls itself that.

In other words, political posturing to appease the religious masses, just like they still do today.

 

[Magic Man]

In other words, political posturing to appease the religious masses, just like they still do today.

Yes, but that's much too short a way of putting it.

Actually, I've tried saying this other places in this thread. Maybe if it gets said enough different ways, people will pick up on it.

 

[lilithu]

That's what I'm saying, though. In this case I would consider myself agnostic. It seems to me that there's evidence that points to some of the Fathers being Christian, and to them not being Christian, and to them being outwardly Christian, etc. I don't have any strict conclusions about it, though.

If I seem to be arguing one way, it's mostly to make sure that particular viewpoint doesn't get lost and overlooked, not saying that it is the only way to look at it.

Well we disagree, but only nominally. I think we're saying pretty much the same thing here.... maybe. My point is that the Founding Fathers did not all think as one. They were different, thoughtful people with different points of view on this.

Actually, the editor-in-Chief of BeliefNet recently made a stir in UU circles when he described our Founding Fathers as "militant Unitarians."

As for their religious beliefs, someone in the comment thread said I was being incoherent or contradictory by saying the Big Five (Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Washington & Madison) were neither Deists nor orthodox Christians. Again, we’re viewing this through a somewhat warped lens. “Deist” and “Orthodox Christian” were not the only two spiritual choices. For one thing, each Founder was slightly different from each other, and changed throughout their lives. But if I had to pick a religion, I’d say they were sort of militant Unitarians. In other words, they had rejected or become uncomfortable with key parts of Christian doctrine and institutional behavior but they did believe in an active God, who intervened in their lives and the lives of the nation.

Then why use the word, they also weren't Christians "in name only", they professed deism, the fact that Jefferson went to church means as much as me as an atheist going to a church, it means nothing as far as my beliefs are concerned.

Dude, you just keep insisting on your beliefs despite the evidence presented to you. And people accuse us theists of being irrational. :sarcastic The FFs were NOT all deists. Honestly, I wonder how that rumour even got started. Methinks some proselytizing atheists such as yourself just thought that sounded closer to atheist and therefore nicer. Jefferson attended a Unitarian church when he was in Philly. Joseph Priestly's church. He was a Unitarian. He believed in God, and he believed in a God that does interact with us, as evidenced by the quote of him I posted earlier. He just didn't believe that Jesus was God and didn't believe in the miracles reported in the bible.

 

[logician]

Dude, you just keep insisting on your beliefs despite the evidence presented to you. And people accuse us theists of being irrational. :sarcastic The FFs were NOT all deists. Honestly, I wonder how that rumour even got started. Methinks some proselytizing atheists such as yourself just thought that sounded closer to atheist and therefore nicer. Jefferson attended a Unitarian church when he was in Philly. Joseph Priestly's church. He was a Unitarian. He believed in God, and he believed in a God that does interact with us, as evidenced by the quote of him I posted earlier. He just didn't believe that Jesus was God and didn't believe in the miracles reported in the bible.

Uh, dude or dudess, there are some that think Jefferson was an agnostic or atheist. Do your research.

The following statement from Jefferson is indistinguishable from what we
we woud now call agnosticism:

"
TO talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings.TO say that the human soul, angels, god, are immatelrial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise.....without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisifed, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself aoubt those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence."

CHristopher HItchens in his biography "Thomas Jefferson; Author of America" thinks it likely Jefferson was an atheist. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr he writes

"If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virture in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in this exercise, and the love of otheres which will procure you".

 

[Reverend Rick]

In other words, political posturing to appease the religious masses, just like they still do today.

Exactly right! Frubals Heathen!

 

[Reverend Rick]

I find it amusing when people romanticize what the founding fathers were all about.

The truth of the matter is, they where self serving sexist racists.

 

[logician]

The point is that the Founding Fathers were at least nominally Christian. .

That's NOT the point at all, and this whole line of reasoning was brought up as a red herring. The POINT is the premise of my thread, that the U.S. was NOT founded as a Christian nation.

 

[Reverend Rick]

That's NOT the point at all, and this whole line of reasoning was brought up as a red herring. The POINT is the premise of my thread, that the U.S. was NOT founded as a Christian nation.

It was a nation of Christians lead by secretly non religious leaders who wanted to keep religion seperate from their government.

The idea was to get as far away from a king or queen as you could. Religious leaders where just as powerful back then. They wanted a government that was controlled by the people or at least their representatives.

 

[logician]

It was a nation of Christians lead by secretly non religious leaders who wanted to keep religion seperate from their government.

The idea was to get as far away from a king or queen as you could. Religious leaders where just as powerful back then. They wanted a government that was controlled by the people or at least their representatives.

Thus not founded as a Christian nation, the premise of my thread.

 

[Magic Man]

That's NOT the point at all, and this whole line of reasoning was brought up as a red herring. The POINT is the premise of my thread, that the U.S. was NOT founded as a Christian nation.

Yes, that was the point, and this point upholds yours that started the thread. They were nominally Christian. That means they tried to appease the masses by pretending to be Christian. That doesn't mean they tried to found this country as a Christian country.

 

[logician]

Yes, that was the point, and this point upholds yours that started the thread. They were nominally Christian. That means they tried to appease the masses by pretending to be Christian. That doesn't mean they tried to found this country as a Christian country.

The idea that they "pretended to be Christian" is illogical, in that it makes them out to be hypocritical cowards. Two things our founding fathers were not , hypocrites and cowards.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Thus not founded as a Christian nation, the premise of my thread.

Not founded as a non-religious nation either. Separation of church and state is not anti-religious or pro-religious.

If your not careful logician, you just might find we agree on something.

 

[Ronald]

Thank God for the US Constitution! With out it we would have a repressive Christian Government (not under the law) making all sorts of laws for the rest of the citizens to bear!

The fruit of the Hebrew Tree was Hybridized before it was planted as the Christian Religion.

Praise God for America. May it stay free from religious tyranny! Amen

 

[Smoke]

The idea that they "pretended to be Christian" is illogical, in that it makes them out to be hypocritical cowards. Two things our founding fathers were not , hypocrites and cowards.

A man like Jefferson, who doesn't believe that Jesus was god and rejects all the miracles in the Bible, but still considers himself a Christian because he believes Jesus was a great teacher, is neither a hypocrite nor a coward. He is also not someone who would be considered a Christian by our present-day Evangelicals, but I would suggest that Jefferson is as good a judge of who a Christian is, as they are. It all depends on how you define "Christian."

What's certain is that the people who are always saying the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation also define Christianity in a way that excludes most of the leading founders.

 

[Magic Man]

The idea that they "pretended to be Christian" is illogical, in that it makes them out to be hypocritical cowards. Two things our founding fathers were not , hypocrites and cowards.

Or it makes them out to be smart. One thing our founding fathers were, smart. That would make it completely logical.

It's like saying to someone "I agree with you, and I'm on your side" to gain their respect and confidence, and then "But let's do things this way". That way they are more willing to understand and conform to your opinion, because they see how it can coincide with their other opinions.

 

[logician]

A man like Jefferson, who doesn't believe that Jesus was god and rejects all the miracles in the Bible, but still considers himself a Christian because he believes Jesus was a great teacher, is neither a hypocrite nor a coward. He is also not someone who would be considered a Christian by our present-day Evangelicals, but I would suggest that Jefferson is as good a judge of who a Christian is, as they are. It all depends on how you define "Christian."

What's certain is that the people who are always saying the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation also define Christianity in a way that excludes most of the leading founders.

Maybe you missed the post where Jefferson had a great disdain for Christianity. The idea that he was a Christian in any way, shape , or form is simply false. That he may had "friends" or associated with people that were Christian is irrelevant. I have friends and family that are Christian, that does not make me any less of an atheist, or make me some kind of "nominal" Christian.

 

[Magic Man]

Maybe you missed the post where Jefferson had a great disdain for Christianity. The idea that he was a Christian in any way, shape , or form is simply false. That he may had "friends" or associated with people that were Christian is irrelevant. I have friends and family that are Christian, that does not make me any less of an atheist, or make me some kind of "nominal" Christian.

Maybe you missed the part where Jefferson is said to actually ahve attended church, which would make him nominally Christian.

 

[Tau]

Christian founded or not, your nation is now in the grip of evangelical Christianity, have fun.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Christian founded or not, your nation is now in the grip of evangelical Christianity, have fun.

You have not seen anything yet. :yes:

 

[lilithu]

Maybe you missed the part where Jefferson is said to actually ahve attended church, which would make him nominally Christian.

Do you consider the Unitarians to be nominally Christian?

(Just a question; I won't take offense either way.)