lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
I have to agree with logician here that I don't think Jefferson considered himself "Christian."
Amen, my brother!
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The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.
- Thread starter logician
- Start date
Starfish
Please no sarcasm
The majority of the Founding Fathers were Christian and understood the importance of religion in society. Many of them were disillusioned with the churches of their day, so deism might well describe some of them. However, they believed in God. No doubt about it.
The phrase "separation of church and state" was made by Jefferson, while he was in Europe, and not present at the organizing assembly in the states.
The government was set up to protect the freedom of religion, not to protect society from religion.
The phrase "separation of church and state" was made by Jefferson, while he was in Europe, and not present at the organizing assembly in the states.
The government was set up to protect the freedom of religion, not to protect society from religion.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Shouldn't religion be a personal and private affair? Does the state need to be invasive and imposing by endorsing and promoting a particular faith via legislation? What if the State became a evangelist theocracy that declared Mormonism a blasphemous heresy and that all mormons should be imprisoned, and their children taken away to camps to be taught "real" christianity?
The Seeker
Once upon a time....
I agree as well. I would imagine that in order to be consider a Christian, one would have to believe that Jesus was the son of God. Jefferson believed that Jesus was a very wise man but definitely not the son of God.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Well, I know people who identify themselves as Christian but do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. (It's all so complicated that I now just let people define themselves.)
My argument is pretty much the same as logician's here. Jefferson voiced contempt towards what he considered to be Christianity. It's therefore unlikely that he self-identified as Christian.
The Seeker
Once upon a time....
I don't understand that. How can you be a Christian if you don't believe Jesus was the Christ???? Oh well, I guess that's a whole other discussion.
Agreed.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
They would define "the Christ" differently. It was a very odd feeling the day that I realized that I have a higher christology than some Christians.
Agreed.
Starfish
Please no sarcasm
We can all agree that we wouldn't want that. Nevertheless, they felt religion was important, and wanted to protect free worship. George Washington in particular felt this way.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
"Christ" is a word from the Greek meaning "Anointed".
King Solomon was anointed, as was King David, and even King Saul. It had to do with the kingship of the Jewish nation, and Jesus was "King of the Jews" after all.
Regards,
Scott
logician
Well-Known Member
From the many quotes of Jefferson I posted here, Jefferson was about as far from being a Christian as one can be, and as quoted before, may have been considered an agnostic or an atheist had he been living today. More importantly, he and the rest of the founding fathers were "secularists", who strongly believed in keeping religion views out of the affairs of state.
Unfortunately, we seem to have gone backwards in this respect, as there are many politicians who believe quite the opposite today.
Unfortunately, we seem to have gone backwards in this respect, as there are many politicians who believe quite the opposite today.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Only by the mentally infirm.
"The god who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them."
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."
"I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did."
And last quote is in a private letter from Jefferson to Adams, lest anyone think he was just saying that for public consumption. Jefferson was not an atheist, but he did seek to protect the rights of atheists. These were great men who looked out for the higher good for more than just themselves, and you seek to turn him into someone who looked out only for his own interests.
logician
Well-Known Member
The following statement fropm Jefferson is indistinguishable from what we
we woud now call agnosticism:
"
TO talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings.TO say that the human soul, angels, god, are immatelrial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise.....without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisifed, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself aoubt those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence."
CHristopher HItchens in his biography Th omas Jefferson; Author of America thinks it likely Jefferson was an atheist. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr he writes
"If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virture in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in this exercise, and the love of otheres which will procure you".
we woud now call agnosticism:
"
TO talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings.TO say that the human soul, angels, god, are immatelrial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise.....without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisifed, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself aoubt those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence."
CHristopher HItchens in his biography Th omas Jefferson; Author of America thinks it likely Jefferson was an atheist. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr he writes
"If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virture in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in this exercise, and the love of otheres which will procure you".
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
If by agnostic you mean someone who holds that it is impossible to know for certain whether there is deity or not, then of course he was an agnostic. It is the only rational conclusion that one can reach. But if by agnostic you mean how it is generally used, sort of a soft atheist, someone who is not sure whether there is deity or not but leans towards no, then NO, Jefferson was not an agnostic.
It means squat that Hitchens thinks it likely that Jefferson was an atheist. He's doing the same thing that you're doing - trying to bolster the legitimacy of your own position by claiming that a person whom most people respect is one your side and against others.
The actual quotes of Jefferson that you give, I am in complete agreement with. They are not contrary to a belief in deity. In the first quote, he is speaking against immaterialism. He's saying that if you believe that god, etc is immaterial then you might as well believe in nothing. In other words, Jefferson believed that any concept of god had to have real consequences in this world. And in the second quote he is saying that he has no problem with atheism, that if his nephew comes to that conclusion, that's fine. Jefferson did not believe that one has to be a theist to be moral. But that doesn't make him an atheist. Jeez louise. I've already given you a quote where Jefferson says that he could never be an atheist - your persistence here is bordering on irrational.
Starfish
Please no sarcasm
More quotes by Jefferson:
Source - America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, ed. William J. Federer, FAME publishing, Inc. 1994
Belief - Episcopalian
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." 1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.
"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
From my reading, when some of these men spoke unfavorably about religion, they weren't speaking about their faith in Christ. They were speaking about the churches and the popular doctrines of their day. They seemed to find an inconsistency between those churches and the pure doctrine of Christ.
I can't say for sure, by it sounds like Thomas Jefferson might have been very interested to hear what Joseph Smith had to say.
Source - America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, ed. William J. Federer, FAME publishing, Inc. 1994
Belief - Episcopalian
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." 1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.
"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
From my reading, when some of these men spoke unfavorably about religion, they weren't speaking about their faith in Christ. They were speaking about the churches and the popular doctrines of their day. They seemed to find an inconsistency between those churches and the pure doctrine of Christ.
I can't say for sure, by it sounds like Thomas Jefferson might have been very interested to hear what Joseph Smith had to say.
rheff78
I'm your huckleberry.
Look, SOME of the foudning fathers may not have been christians. Some were. I think that is besides the point. If you want to get down to it then the first colonies in America were founded on fleeing religious persecution to practice their own brand of christianity. So, where all the founding fathers christians, maybe not. But was the reason for people coming here to practice religion freely, absolutely. This is what I think the nation was founded upon.
logician
Well-Known Member
Ditto for you.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
No one is implying that people shouldn't be able to practice their religion freely. What people are saying, however, is that the state should never become a theocracy. This is in response to people who say "America was founded as a Christian nation and so we should advocate and enforce Christian doctrine by law, h'yuk." You know, like imprisoning homosexuals or science teachers.
Starfish
Please no sarcasm
I agree. (Again, I'm agreeing with an atheist!)
Just wondering. Since I haven't seen any homosexuals or science teachers imprisoned, do you have any examples of the Christian community imposing itself upon others through law? The marriage amendment maybe. Anything else? Thanks.
