The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

[Starfish]

I've long thought that both Unitarianism and Mormonism are quintessentially American religions. We embody different aspects of American culture/identity so we're often at odds with each other, but yeah, we do have something in common.


(Scientology is a quintessentially American religion too, but let's not talk about that. :cover

I don't know much, if any, about either religion. But hey, to each his own!

 

[Sententia]

The forefathers put forth a document to all of the public and set their signatures to it to validate it. They clearly expressed a seperation of government and religion.

To everyone trying to second guess what they have made abundantly clear all I can say is how dare you?

Blasphemy punishable by death and the salem witch trials is hardly what they had in mind. FREEDOM people. Freedom to believe what you want to believe without infringing on anothers belief. Do you understand? You tell me I will goto hell if I dont believe in Jesus, I wont get my virgins if I deny alah etc etc etc... Please people STFU. Believe what you want but hypothethical unproven beleif in supernatural BS that is at odds with other hypothetical unproven beliefs in different supernatural BS that both demands unquestioning faith and intolerance of opposing ideas is not FREEDOM. Its a mental trap.

Do not tell me in some private letter so and so said this to so and so and thus you in your ultimate wisdom have decided that this particular statement means so and so believed in this... You have no clue what your talking about. You are parroting BS stories and lately it all seems to be O'Reilly. Think for thyself.

 

[Starfish]

The forefathers put forth a document to all of the public and set their signatures to it to validate it. They clearly expressed a seperation of government and religion.

To everyone trying to second guess what they have made abundantly clear all I can say is how dare you?

Blasphemy punishable by death and the salem witch trials is hardly what they had in mind. FREEDOM people. Freedom to believe what you want to believe without infringing on anothers belief. Do you understand? You tell me I will goto hell if I dont believe in Jesus, I wont get my virgins if I deny alah etc etc etc... Please people STFU. Believe what you want but hypothethical unproven beleif in supernatural BS that is at odds with other hypothetical unproven beliefs in different supernatural BS that both demands unquestioning faith and intolerance of opposing ideas is not FREEDOM. Its a mental trap.

Do not tell me in some private letter so and so said this to so and so and thus you in your ultimate wisdom have decided that this particular statement means so and so believed in this... You have no clue what your talking about. You are parroting BS stories and lately it all seems to be O'Reilly. Think for thyself.

Well I do have a clue what I'm talking about; but don't worry--I won't push it on you.

Separation of church and state was to protect both from each other. Not only to protect government from religion. Religion was to be protected also. Rather the FREEDOM of religion, as you say.

The LDS take on this is: "We claim the right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." Articles of Faith

No pushiness here.

 

[Sententia]

Well I do have a clue what I'm talking about; but don't worry--I won't push it on you.

Separation of church and state was to protect both from each other. Not only to protect government from religion. Religion was to be protected also. Rather the FREEDOM of religion, as you say.

The LDS take on this is: "We claim the right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." Articles of Faith

No pushiness here.

Great and how does that allow for the freedoms of atheists? I cant visit a liquor store on sunday and every cent I spend says in god we trust which is just a ridiculous statement to being with.

Not to mention LDS... follows the teachings of an obvious fraud Joseph Smith. I won't even get into it as I work with a few mormons and have argued enough points. (Egads... Brigham Young...)

I'm not saying mormons are bad people at all or even questioning why they believe what they believe as they are entitled to whatever they want to believe and nor has the mormon beleif ever really affected me as a person.

Seriously people believe God spoke to so and so and said this and that... Well maybe so and so was just messing with you or had too many shrooms. You cant prove it either way so why argue?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Let's face it, our founding fathers stood head and shoulders above our current crop of religious fanatics in government, in both wisdom and intelligence. We need more people like this in government.

Frubals on your head. SP We don't agree on much.

It appears that our founding fathers were true patriots and believed in fairness towards all. Today, we are surrounded by hatriots who go against most every Christian precept imaginable in their quest to kill and maim in the name of profits. They are anathema.

 

[Starfish]

Great and how does that allow for the freedoms of atheists? I cant visit a liquor store on sunday and every cent I spend says in god we trust which is just a ridiculous statement to being with.

Not to mention LDS... follows the teachings of an obvious fraud Joseph Smith. I won't even get into it as I work with a few mormons and have argued enough points. (Egads... Brigham Young...)

I'm not saying mormons are bad people at all or even questioning why they believe what they believe as they are entitled to whatever they want to believe and nor has the mormon beleif ever really affected me as a person.

Seriously people believe God spoke to so and so and said this and that... Well maybe so and so was just messing with you or had too many shrooms. You cant prove it either way so why argue?

Walking away.

 

[lilithu]

Walking away.

As well you should. Frubals to you.

 

[Kcnorwood]

Really, I haven't seen any. Maybe it's your interpretation that is at fault.

Didn't you know? He must be telling the truth because he's a Christian I'm just a heathren..:foot:

 

[Scott1]

The forefathers put forth a document to all of the public and set their signatures to it to validate it. They clearly expressed a seperation of government and religion.

To everyone trying to second guess what they have made abundantly clear all I can say is how dare you?

Oh vey... seems time to bring this up again:

BEFORE IT ADJOURNED ON JULY 4, 1776, THE
Continental Congress of the newly independent
United States passed a resolution:​

Resolved, that Dr. Franklin, Mr. J. Adams
and Mr. Jefferson, be a committee, to bring
in a device for a seal for the United States of
America.​

Thus, three of the five men who had drafted the
Declaration of Independence were brought together
in further service to their country. The revolutionaries
needed an emblem and national coat of arms
to give visible evidence of a sovereign nation and a
free people with high aspirations and grand hopes
for the future. The task proved far more difficult
than anticipated; it took 6 years, two more committees,
and the combined efforts of 14 men before
the Great Seal of the United States became a reality
on June 20, 1782.​

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/27807.pdf​

.... and what's on the reverse of that "Great Seal"?
Annuit Coeptis = (He [God] has favored our undertakings) and the EYE OF PROVIDENCE

Hardly seems to seperate religion from the government that this Seal represents to the world.

God bless America ,
S

 

[Sententia]

Oh vey... seems time to bring this up again:
.... and what's on the reverse of that "Great Seal"?
Annuit Coeptis = (He [God] has favored our undertakings) and the EYE OF PROVIDENCE
Hardly seems to seperate religion from the government that this Seal represents to the world.
God bless America ,
S

New york times on the subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/opinion/07meacham.html

The eye of providence is hardly an endorsement of Jesus Christ specifically. It could mean any god to any person. Or even just destiny. In any event is most probable that it was suggested by Pierre Eugene du Simitiere, an artistic consultant. Nor does the eye of providence make the united states a christan nation.

When Charles Thomson provided his official explanation of the meaning of this motto, he wrote:

"The Eye over it [the pyramid] and the motto Annuit Coeptis allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favor of the American cause
​

The 1782 resolution adopting the seal describes the image on the reverse as "A pyramid unfinished. In the zenith an eye in a triangle, surrounded by a glory, proper." The pyramid is conventionally shown as consisting of 13 layers of blocks to refer to the 13 original states. There are also 13 sides shown on the ribbon. The adopting resolution provides that it is inscribed on its base with the date MDCCLXXVIM (1776) in Roman numerals. Where the top of the pyramid should be, the Eye of Providence watches over it. Two mottos appear: Annuit Cœptis signifies that the Eye of Providence has "approved of (our) undertakings."[1] Novus Ordo Seclorum, freely taken from Virgil, means "a new order of the ages." It is incorrectly rendered as "New World Order" by some theorists, and "a new secular order" by others. The word seclorum does not mean "secular," as one might assume, but is the genitive (possessive) plural form of the word saeculum, meaning (in this context) generation, century, or age. Saeculum did come to mean "age, world" in late, Christian, Latin, and "secular" is derived from it, through secularis. However, the adjective "secularis," meaning "worldly," is not equivalent to the genitive plural seclorum, meaning "of the ages."[2]. The reverse has never been cut (as a seal) but appears, for example, on the back of the one-dollar bill.

The Eye of Providence, or "all-seeing eye," was a well-known classical symbol of the Renaissance. The eye in a triangle design originally was suggested by Pierre Eugene du Simitiere, and later heraldist William Barton improved upon the design. In Du Simitière's original sketch, two figures stand next to a shield with the all-seeing pyramid above them. The August 20, 1776 report of the first Great Seal Committee describes the seal as "Crest The Eye of Providence in a radiant Triangle whose Glory extends over the Shield and beyond the Figures."

 

[Scuba Pete]

Unfortunately, many anti-religious zealots try to use the separation of church and state as a method to eliminate church from state.

 

[doppelganger]

Unfortunately, many anti-religious zealots try to use the separation of church and state as a method to eliminate church from state.

That would be for the Church's own good even more so than the state. Nothing has corrupted Christianity more than making it one with politics.

 

[Scuba Pete]

That would be for the Church's own good even more so than the state. Nothing has corrupted Christianity more than making it one with politics.

Go back and READ what I said. It's really not the separation that bothers me, but the attempt to eradicate it altogether.

 

[lilithu]

That would be for the Church's own good even more so than the state. Nothing has corrupted Christianity more than making it one with politics.

Christianity comes out of the prophetic tradition of Judaism. The role of the prophet is to bear witness against injustice. That makes it inherently political. Religion is not about hiding away from the rest of the world in order to pursue one's own private salvation. Religion is about making the world better, about making heaven on earth. Tikkun Olam.

 

[doppelganger]

Go back and READ what I said. It's really not the separation that bothers me, but the attempt to eradicate it altogether.

Sorry, but I misunderstood you. You wrote: "try to use the separation of church and state as a method to eliminate church from state."

Which I took to mean that you were talking about the whole silly "freedom of" v. "freedom from" religion thing that I hear a lot of "conservative Christians" parrot, that somehow the establishment clause still allows the state to act in furtherance of particular religions.

My apologies.

 

[Scott1]

Nor does the eye of providence make the united states a christan nation.

Fair enough.... but it's certainly not the agnostic/atheist nation that some would like it to be.

 

[doppelganger]

Christianity comes out of the prophetic tradition of Judaism. The role of the prophet is to bear witness against injustice. That makes it inherently political.

I strongly disagree.

Christianity is not Judaism to me. It's a mythology about inner, spiritual awakening. Heaven on earth is a state of mind. "Making the world a better place" might be an incidental benefit.

 

[lilithu]

I strongly disagree.

Christianity is not Judaism to me. It's a mythology about inner, spiritual awakening. Heaven on earth is a state of mind.

Yep, we strongly disagree.

I shudder to think what the world would be like if the many Christian abolitionists and Dr. King thought that way.

 

[doppelganger]

I shudder to think what th world would be like if Gandhi and King thought that way.

Exactly like it is. Do you see justice rampant in the world somewhere? The world is full of religion. It's also full of hatred, greed, torture, violence, war, fear, famine, and social injustice.

Human atrocities and injustice are always justified as being "good" at the time they are enacted.

 

[lilithu]

Do you see justice rampant in the world somewhere? The world is full of religion. It's also full of hatred, greed, torture, violence, war, fear, famine, and social injustice.

Which is exactly why the prophet is needed.

Yes, there has always been injustice. But certain injustices have ended. They don't just go away by themselves.

If you want to say that folks like Rev. Theodore Parker and Rev. King and Archbishop Tutu did not make a difference... well as we've already agreed, we disagree strongly on this.