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The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

Sententia

Well-Known Member
Our nukes are armed and ready ;)

??? I know some of the soviet nukes went unaccounted for but how in gods name did they end up on the moons of jupiter? (You can pick whatever gods name is the least offensive)

Are the moons of jupiter allies with the earth colonies?

What kind of latency is there from there to these earthly bound forums? :angel2:

As to the question of was america founded as a christian nation I think it is abundantly clear that the forefathers, despite their own varying beliefs, made it abundantly clear to carefully lay the foundations of a nation free to practice any religion. Not just christianity.

That of course was probably lost on the people that migrated here.

There is a to be a seperation of relgion and country and currently the two are still intermingled. They should just go their seperate ways as intended. One has naught to do with the other or atleast should not.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm

Kcnorwood

Well-Known Member
James Madison said: "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches[/FONT]




John Adams: "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."


Thomas Jefferson: "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- "Notes on Virginia[/FONT]




Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians


This nation was based on freedom OF religion.
 

Tau

Well-Known Member
??? I know some of the soviet nukes went unaccounted for but how in gods name did they end up on the moons of jupiter?

We made own, it its quite simple, you need a spherical mass of Plutonium and some conventional explosives spaced equidistant around the Plutonium mass to compress the metal in all directions in one instant, this compression causes a super critical reaction, childs play...
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
James Madison said: "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches[/FONT]




John Adams: "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."


Thomas Jefferson: "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]- "Notes on Virginia[/FONT]



Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians


This nation was based on freedom OF religion.
Oh come now. Plenty of their quotes have been posted that show their belief in Christ. However, apparently they wisely recognized that the true gospel of Jesus Christ did not exist upon the earth at that time. Some of them were disillusioned with the churches of their day.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
George Washington
Source - Christianity As An Influence On The Founding Fathers by John A. Sterling
Belief -
Episcopalian
"I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation." June 8, 1783 in a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army.
jefferson.jpg

Thomas Jefferson
Source - America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, ed. William J. Federer, FAME publishing, Inc. 1994
Belief -
Episcopalian"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." 1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.
"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
madison.jpg
James Madison
Belief -
Episcopalian
"Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government." June 20, 1785
"It is not the talking but the walking and working person that is the true Christian." In a manuscript on the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, Madison makes this statement.
"We have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being, whose power regulates the destiny of nations." March 4, 1809 Inaugural Address
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

franklin.gif
Benjamin Franklin
Belief -
Episcopalian
"Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University

"Heavenly Father, May all revere Thee, And become They dutiful children and faithful subjects. May thy Laws be obeyed on earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven. Provide for us this day as Thou hast hitherto daily done. Forgive us our trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offended us. Keep us out of temptation and deliver us from Evil." Franklin's own version of the Lord's Prayer
“God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” – Constitutional Convention of 1787, original manuscript of this speech
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
adams.jpg
John Adams
Belief -
Unitarian
"The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..." November 4, 1816 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." December 27, 1816 in a letter to Judge F.A. Van der Kemp.
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)

Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.
Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart
For more information on quotes from these founding fathers and many others, please see: America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, ed. William J. Federer, FAME Publishing, Inc. 1994.
 

The Seeker

Once upon a time....
Oh come now. Plenty of their quotes have been posted that show their belief in Christ. However, apparently they wisely recognized that the true gospel of Jesus Christ did not exist upon the earth at that time. Some of them were disillusioned with the churches of their day.

Are you saying that they believed that Jesus was the son of God or that they believed in what Jesus taught? If the latter, I will agree with you 100% Both Jefferson and Adams had a lot of respect and admiration for Jesus and his teachings, but rejected the notion that he was the son of God. I'm agnostic and feel the same way they did. Jesus was indeed a very wise man and the world would be a much better place if people followed his teachings. However, I feel that Jesus was in no way, shape or form the son of God.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Maybe they had a change of heart:

John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed"


"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."


"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years." letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in In God We Trust and 2000 Years of Disbelief


"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.


"The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion.The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."

Ben Franklin

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." Franklin's Autobiography


"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it."


�Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle�s Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist.�


"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."


"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason"

Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Notes on Virginia


"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" Letter to von Humboldt, 1813


"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823



"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" Letter to H. Spafford, 1814



"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810



"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'" From Jefferson's biography



"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Are you saying that they believed that Jesus was the son of God or that they believed in what Jesus taught? If the latter, I will agree with you 100% Both Jefferson and Adams had a lot of respect and admiration for Jesus and his teachings, but rejected the notion that he was the son of God. I'm agnostic and feel the same way they did. Jesus was indeed a very wise man and the world would be a much better place if people followed his teachings. However, I feel that Jesus was in no way, shape or form the son of God.
I don't have any more opinion than what we have before us--their own words. Whether or not Adams and Jefferson believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ is read in what they have said. They both claimed to be Christian, and that involves a belief in Christ as the son of God.

There is a popular belief here that many of the Founding Fathers were Deists. (Deism means a belief in a God who created the world, then abandoned it.) So IF they were Deists, then it would follow that it could be because the true gospel of Jesus Christ had not been restored yet, but would be soon thereafter.

Side note: I read somewhere that Washington wasn't always a steady church-attender, but made his troups attend church because he recognized the good influence it would have on them. He definately believed religion was important in society.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Washington and Madison, I'll give you. Tho Madison was a very ecumenical Episcopalian. He went to university at Princeton and was heavily influenced by Presbyterian thinkers there.

Jefferson and Franklin were NOT Episcopalians. They were raised in that tradition, yes. But that would be like claiming I was Confucian because my parents are. Or any number of Jews and Catholics who are culturally Jewish and Catholic respectively, but do not practice. I've already said that Jefferson attended a Unitarian church when he could. Franklin did not attend any, and he specifically said that he felt no affinity towards any of the religious groups, and also felt no hostility towards any of them.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I don't have any more opinion than what we have before us--their own words. Whether or not Adams and Jefferson believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ is read in what they have said. They both claimed to be Christian, and that involves a belief in Christ as the son of God.
They both claimed to be Unitarians and Unitarians do not believe in the the divinity of Christ.
 

The Seeker

Once upon a time....
I don't have any more opinion than what we have before us--their own words. Whether or not Adams and Jefferson believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ is read in what they have said. They both claimed to be Christian, and that involves a belief in Christ as the son of God.

There is a popular belief here that many of the Founding Fathers were Deists. (Deism means a belief in a God who created the world, then abandoned it.) So IF they were Deists, then it would follow that it could be because the true gospel of Jesus Christ had not been restored yet, but would be soon thereafter.

Side note: I read somewhere that Washington wasn't always a steady church-attender, but made his troups attend church because he recognized the good influence it would have on them. He definately believed religion was important in society.

Please site a quote from either Jefferson or Adams which states they believe in the divinity of Jesus. My guess is that you won't find one. They considered themselves to be Christians because they believed in doctrines of Jesus. This in no way implies that they believed Jesus was the son of God.

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson.

It's safe to say that they were Deists because they both stated a belief in God. I'm not sure how you would gather from this that they believed that the true gospel of Jesus would be restored. Being a deist means that you believe in a god that doesn't take an active role in human affairs.

Adams, like Washington, also thought that religion was important to society. He believed that people acted bad enough with religion and couldn't fathom how they would act without it.

 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
They both claimed to be Unitarians and Unitarians do not believe in the the divinity of Christ.
Are Unitarians Christian? I don't know. Unless I'm mistaken, a Christian believes that Jesus was more than a wise man. I mean, I think Jewish people feel he was a wise man, but they obviously aren't Christian.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Please site a quote from either Jefferson or Adams which states they believe in the divinity of Jesus. My guess is that you won't find one. They considered themselves to be Christians because they believed in doctrines of Jesus. This in no way implies that they believed Jesus was the son of God.

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson.
Well, whatever. Whether they believed in Christ's divinity or not, isn't the point here. They still called themselves Christian. And I think that is what this thread was referring to.

It's safe to say that they were Deists because they both stated a belief in God. I'm not sure how you would gather from this that they believed that the true gospel of Jesus would be restored. Being a deist means that you believe in a god that doesn't take an active role in human affairs.

Adams, like Washington, also thought that religion was important to society. He believed that people acted bad enough with religion and couldn't fathom how they would act without it.
They had no idea that the true gospel of Jesus Christ would be restored in a few years. But it SEEMS that they felt it was lacking in their world. If so, that would be an accurate feeling. God certainly was not taking an active role in the religions at that time. However, they still prayed. God was still listening to and answering their prayers.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Are Unitarians Christian? I don't know. Unless I'm mistaken, a Christian believes that Jesus was more than a wise man. I mean, I think Jewish people feel he was a wise man, but they obviously aren't Christian.
Some Unitarians identify as Christian. I don't argue with them about it. But at the time of our Founding Fathers, I would say that the vast majority of Unitarians still considered Unitarianism to be Christian. And what's more, true Christianity, as Jesus taught it.
 

Starfish

Please no sarcasm
Some Unitarians identify as Christian. I don't argue with them about it. But at the time of our Founding Fathers, I would say that the vast majority of Unitarians still considered Unitarianism to be Christian. And what's more, true Christianity, as Jesus taught it.
Good for them.

I have something in common with Unitarians.:)
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
I have something in common with Unitarians.:)
I've long thought that both Unitarianism and Mormonism are quintessentially American religions. We embody different aspects of American culture/identity so we're often at odds with each other, but yeah, we do have something in common. :D


(Scientology is a quintessentially American religion too, but let's not talk about that. :cover:)
 
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