Smoke
Done here.
I've asked you twice why you say the comparison to other people is invalid; answer my question, and I'll consider answering yours.
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The Virgin Mary - or was she?
- Thread starter kadzbiz
- Start date
logician
Well-Known Member
A background on the creation of the myth of the virgin Mary:
The Mythical Virgin Mary
Some excerpts:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"From Merest Shadow to Queen of Heaven[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God only knows who was also in the room (or was it a cave? ) to record all this! Perhaps she wrote her memoirs. (In truth, the piece is an obvious adaptation of the song of Hannah in 1 Samuel 2). But after this soliloquy Mary has not a word to say for herself. She witnesses visits of shepherds and wise men and ‘ponders’ (Luke 2.16); she is taken to Egypt (Matthew 2.13.18) and brought backto Galilee; she puzzles at her twelve-year old’s claim to messiahship (Luke 2.48,52); she witnesses the turning of water to wine (John 2.1,12); she is rejected by her super-star off-spring (Luke 8. 19,21); she witnesses his crucifixion (John 19.25,27); and she waits for the holy spirit (Acts 1.14). Her ultimate fate is not revealed and she is credited with no role at all in the creation of the Christian Church. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the fifth century, the Council of Ephesus (431 AD) accorded Mary the title ‘Theotokos’ (‘Mother of God’. [/FONT]
The Mythical Virgin Mary
Some excerpts:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"From Merest Shadow to Queen of Heaven[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Who?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Scripture may have very little to say about Jesus; it has even less to say about his supposed mother. For the earliest Christians ‘Mary Mother of Jesus’ almost did not exist: they were not interested in the nativity of their god-man – it was his re-birth after death that mattered. Paul does not mention Mary (or Joseph) at all, and in the gospels, the shadowy figure of Mary, destined to become the most pre-eminent of all the saints and Queen of Heaven, at best, is a two-dimensional nonentity.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the gospel pageant, ‘Mary’ appears in several scenes. In all of them she is a passive character, habitually in the background and virtually without a voice (she speaks in total three times, twice in a single sentence). She is not described (but then, none of the gospel characters are!); nor do we know her age. She is a bit player, primarily with ‘witnessing’ parts. We learn nothing of her origins, save for the family connection to cousin Elizabeth and as betrothed of Joseph. She appears first in the so-called ‘Annunciation’ (at the well ..?) when an angel maps out her career. With little ado, she accepts the ‘blessed’ role revealed to her (Luke 1.38) and rushes off to spend three months in the mountains with the pregnant Lizzy (she who will mother John the Baptist). In this, her biggest scene, Mary delivers her only set-piece speech (such articulation at this gob-smacking moment!) – the so-called 'Magnificat':[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Scripture may have very little to say about Jesus; it has even less to say about his supposed mother. For the earliest Christians ‘Mary Mother of Jesus’ almost did not exist: they were not interested in the nativity of their god-man – it was his re-birth after death that mattered. Paul does not mention Mary (or Joseph) at all, and in the gospels, the shadowy figure of Mary, destined to become the most pre-eminent of all the saints and Queen of Heaven, at best, is a two-dimensional nonentity.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the gospel pageant, ‘Mary’ appears in several scenes. In all of them she is a passive character, habitually in the background and virtually without a voice (she speaks in total three times, twice in a single sentence). She is not described (but then, none of the gospel characters are!); nor do we know her age. She is a bit player, primarily with ‘witnessing’ parts. We learn nothing of her origins, save for the family connection to cousin Elizabeth and as betrothed of Joseph. She appears first in the so-called ‘Annunciation’ (at the well ..?) when an angel maps out her career. With little ado, she accepts the ‘blessed’ role revealed to her (Luke 1.38) and rushes off to spend three months in the mountains with the pregnant Lizzy (she who will mother John the Baptist). In this, her biggest scene, Mary delivers her only set-piece speech (such articulation at this gob-smacking moment!) – the so-called 'Magnificat':[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]My soul doth magnify the Lord,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For he that is mighty hath done to me great things;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and holy is his name. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He hath shewed strength with his arm; [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He hath put down the mighty from their seats,[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He hath filled the hungry with good things; [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]and the rich he hath sent empty away. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He hath helpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Luke 1.46,55)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God only knows who was also in the room (or was it a cave? ) to record all this! Perhaps she wrote her memoirs. (In truth, the piece is an obvious adaptation of the song of Hannah in 1 Samuel 2). But after this soliloquy Mary has not a word to say for herself. She witnesses visits of shepherds and wise men and ‘ponders’ (Luke 2.16); she is taken to Egypt (Matthew 2.13.18) and brought backto Galilee; she puzzles at her twelve-year old’s claim to messiahship (Luke 2.48,52); she witnesses the turning of water to wine (John 2.1,12); she is rejected by her super-star off-spring (Luke 8. 19,21); she witnesses his crucifixion (John 19.25,27); and she waits for the holy spirit (Acts 1.14). Her ultimate fate is not revealed and she is credited with no role at all in the creation of the Christian Church. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the fifth century, the Council of Ephesus (431 AD) accorded Mary the title ‘Theotokos’ (‘Mother of God’
. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The surest protection against Christological heresy was the affirmation and veneration of Mary as Theotokos." – [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](Varghese, p43) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In other words, here was an attempt to call a halt to the continuing speculation as to just how far human, and just how far god, was the divine carpenter. He was God, part of the "Trinity" no less, and Mary was his Mother.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ephesus, of course, had long been the home of the Mother of God, though through that period she had been happy with the name Artemis. With a certain amount of desecration and rebuilding, the sanctity business continued as usual. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Byzantine Romans had a particular affection for court ritual and regalia and Mary as a queen, complete with crown and sceptre, appealed much more to imperial appetites than a shadowy peasant woman. Like Jesus himself, she had ‘gone royal’ and was elevated into the sainthood.The sixth century Council of Constantinople (553 AD) went on to endorse as dogma Mary's "perpetual virginity". The "purity" of virginity, it seems, is closer to the "purity" of God. "[/FONT]
[/FONT]
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Did you read this crap before you posted it? "...the supposed mother!" "Nothing of her origins?" We have her lineage going back to David at least.
logician
Well-Known Member
That and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee.
There are several lineages in the bible, none can be proven to be attributed to the supposed MAry. Mary was a fable, along with these made up lineages:
Check out:
http://www.torahatlanta.com/articles/Problems with Jesus' Lineage.htm
kadzbiz
..........................
Depends how He did it doesn't it? Was there intercourse or not?
I've heard that the lineages vary in different books and that the lineage to David was created to make Jesus look more "royal".
That really is a stupid saying.......sorry, but it is.
Francine
Well-Known Member
Yeah, coffee is $1.29
Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
You tell me... I don't know!
logician
Well-Known Member
So you like calling people stupid? What's really not so smart is pontificating on what may or may not have happened in the bedroom of some mythical person.
kadzbiz
..........................
I don't know either, but my personal belief is, if conception occured, it happened the regular way.
Did I call YOU stupid? Have you even come to know my opinion of the bible? Have a good look at my posts around RF and you'll see we're mostly batting for the same team................................stupid.
*wondering if offense it taken again*
logician
Well-Known Member
I don't know either, but my personal belief is, if conception occured, it happened the regular way.
Did I call YOU stupid? Have you even come to know my opinion of the bible? Have a good look at my posts around RF and you'll see we're mostly batting for the same team................................stupid.
You did it again! LOL
kadzbiz
..........................
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
A very good site, I hope a few of these people read all the info that is here, that Mary is a construct of previous myth seems to be w/o question.
kadzbiz
..........................
Hmm, the whole site seems interesting. (www.jesusneverexisted.com)
Syphros
Errmm... You what now?
The idea that Mary was a Virgin was unlikely by relationships of the time. Women married very young and had children young. The idea that she remained a virgin for the rest of her life is also unlikely (I'm a catholic!). I think the Mary gave birth to Jesus a virgin but he could have had many brothers and sisters. The information was probably covered up by my own church...! (grr!)
kadzbiz
..........................
Syphros
Errmm... You what now?
Sadly, the Catholic Church is one of the main organisations that censored undesirable events and attributes about biblical people from when the church was founded...
One example is Mary's imaculate conception (no sin in her family, come on!). There are also may theories that Mary was rescued from prostitution.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm curious, Syhpros, since your point of view is pretty unconventional for a Catholic, do you pretty much keep it to yourself, except on places like this where you can remain anonymous? Or are you pretty outspoken about it among your Catholic peers? It seems to be such an important doctrine to the Catholics that I wonder how you get around rejecting it.
Syphros
Errmm... You what now?
I never said Jesus wasn't divinely concepted. It is just unlikely Mary would have remained a virgin.
Religion is whatever you want it to be. The Catholic Church is a highly pious sect of religion that has little time for unorthodox minds. The old testament contains stories that teach morals and are mostly unproven. The impact Christ has had upon the world such as changing the date system to BCE/AD chose me to harbour the Christian faith.
Religion shouldn't be about Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Buddists etc. Religion is a way philosophers or prophets have tried to unify people in peace by saying that there is an almighty that can forgive people and strengthen them mentally.
It is very hard to explain...
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
The whole virgin birth thingy was based upon a deliberate mistransalation:
"
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Virgin Birth Fraud
The most colossal blunder of the Septuagint translators, the mistranslation of the original Hebrew text of Isaiah, 7.14, allowed deceitful early Christians to concoct their infamous prophecy that somehow the ancient Jewish text presaged the miraculous birth of their own godman.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Justin ‘Martyr’, a pagan Greek from Palestine, fled to Ephesus at the time of Bar Kochbar’s revolt (132 -135 AD). He joined the growing Christian community and found himself competing with the priests of Artemis, an eternally virgin goddess. Justin successfully overcame the sentiments of established Christians and had Mary, mother of Jesus, declared a virgin, citing his Greek copy of Isaiah as 'evidence' of scriptural prescience. The Greek priest who then forged the 'Gospel according to St. Matthew' went one stage further, taking the word 'harah' – in Hebrew a past or perfect tense – and switched it into a future tense to arrive at:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lying for God - The Christian Way
[/FONT]
"
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Virgin Birth Fraud
The most colossal blunder of the Septuagint translators, the mistranslation of the original Hebrew text of Isaiah, 7.14, allowed deceitful early Christians to concoct their infamous prophecy that somehow the ancient Jewish text presaged the miraculous birth of their own godman.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Hebrew original says:
'Hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o immanuel.'[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Honestly translated, the verse reads:
'Behold, the young woman has conceived — and bears a son and calls his name Immanuel.'[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Greek-speaking translators of Hebrew scripture (in 3rd century B.C. Alexandria) slipped up and translated 'almah' (young woman) into the Greek 'parthenos' (virgin). The Hebrew word for virgin would have been 'betulah.' The slip did not matter at the time, for in context, Isaiah’s prophesy – set in the 8th century BC but probably written in the 5th – had been given as reassurance to King Ahaz of Judah that his royal line would survive, despite the ongoing siege of Jerusalem by the Syrians. And it did. In other words, the prophesy had nothing to do with events in Judaea eight hundred years into the future! [/FONT]'Hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o immanuel.'[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Honestly translated, the verse reads:
'Behold, the young woman has conceived — and bears a son and calls his name Immanuel.'[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Justin ‘Martyr’, a pagan Greek from Palestine, fled to Ephesus at the time of Bar Kochbar’s revolt (132 -135 AD). He joined the growing Christian community and found himself competing with the priests of Artemis, an eternally virgin goddess. Justin successfully overcame the sentiments of established Christians and had Mary, mother of Jesus, declared a virgin, citing his Greek copy of Isaiah as 'evidence' of scriptural prescience. The Greek priest who then forged the 'Gospel according to St. Matthew' went one stage further, taking the word 'harah' – in Hebrew a past or perfect tense – and switched it into a future tense to arrive at:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel.'
(Matthew 1.23) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All this to arrive at the monstrous fiction that ancient scripture foretold of the arrival of an infant actually called Jesus!"[/FONT](Matthew 1.23) [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lying for God - The Christian Way
[/FONT]
Syphros
Errmm... You what now?
Christianity has always had its secrets: alas we may never know.
However the people who made the church only wanted to bring people together.