The Walking Dead

[Father Heathen]

He explained it, but tbh if I had been there listening to it I would have been shaking my head at him.

My guess, Rick's explanations aside, is that deep down he still considers himself the leader and the idea of anyone making such a radical decision without his OK makes him nervous.

I don't think it's so much about him than it is the group as a whole. Taking such extreme measures behind everyone's back that were arguably unnecessary and murder is a legitimate reason to be concerned.

...but I suspect that Carol is actually covering up and taking the fall for the real killer, that one sick girl.

 

[Revoltingest]

Rick had a point about the "mercy killings", though. The victims didn't consent, and they could've potentially recovered. Also, she carried out these actions without the leadership's blessing or knowledge. Being unpredictable, dishonest and extreme (and thus untrustworthy), it makes sense that Rick would be concerned about her presence within within the group.

All the characters are flawed. But what flaws do we find tolerable? Tyreese (Cutty on The Wire, btw) poses a danger to the group, one greater than Carol (IMO), but he stays. But his violence is unplanned, spontaneous, & rage filled, which is considered normal & acceptable.
I'm prejudiced...I like Carol. She's smart & a survivor...no longer the feckless victim.

 

[Father Heathen]

All the characters are flawed. But what flaws do we find tolerable? Tyreese poses a danger to the group, one greater than Carol (IMO). But his violence is unplanned, spontaneous, & rage filled, which is considered normal & acceptable.

I think calculated defiance is a bigger danger that has further reaching consequences.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think calculated defiance is a bigger danger that has further reaching consequences.

I prefer the cold calculating type to the volatile unpredictable ones....I know what to expect, & they can be reasoned with.

 

[Father Heathen]

I prefer the cold calculating type to the volatile unpredictable ones....I know what to expect, & they can be reasoned with.

But no one expected nor predicted for Carol to kill people as a "precaution", even though they could've potentially recovered (and despite their deaths, the disease still spread, so it was in vain). She did it without the group's or its leadership's knowledge and permission. And reasoning with them is a bit pointless after the damage is already done, isn't it? The actions obviously raise ethical questions, and will naturally cause unrest, outrage, and disorder within the camp (as it surely will, even without Carol present), something just as dangerous as the disease itself.
If I were part of a group of survivors, I wouldn't want someone among us sneaking around and killing people based on their own personal opinion on what is "necessary". That should be determined by group consensus. How can you trust that they won't slice your throat in your sleep (in their mind as a precaution) because they heard you sneeze that evening?

 

[Revoltingest]

But no one expected nor predicted for Carol to kill people as a "precaution", even though they could've potentially recovered (and despite their deaths, the disease still spread, so it was in vain). She did it without the group's or its leadership's knowledge and permission. And reasoning with them is a bit pointless after the damage is already done, isn't it? The actions obviously raise ethical questions, and will naturally cause unrest, outrage, and disorder within the camp (as it surely will, even without Carol present), something just as dangerous as the disease itself.
If I were part of a group of survivors, I wouldn't want someone among us sneaking around and killing people based on their own personal opinion on what is "necessary". That should be determined by group consensus. How can you trust that they won't slice your throat in your sleep (in their mind as a precaution) because they heard you sneeze that evening?

I presume that Carol made a reasonable decision about the fate of the sickies. She also sees a group which has trouble facing such tough decisions, which makes her acting alone reasonable. Once she did start discussing it with Rick, he tried to avoid it, & also behaved autocratically by banishing her. Just as the sickies might have survived if Carol hadn't killed them, Carol might've been OK with the group. The real issue is that Rick will tolerate violence from rage, but not violence for a calculated purpose.

 

[Father Heathen]

I presume that Carol made a reasonable decision about the fate of the sickies. She also sees a group which has trouble facing such tough decisions, which makes her acting alone reasonable.

Even if it could be argued that it was a reasonable decision, it was made behind everyone's back. You don't just blindly trust a single individual's judgement to simply go around killing people without the group's council and consensus. So even if killing them was reasonable, despite the potential for recovery and the fact that it failed to stop the spread, taking such power into her own hands in secret is reason enough for the group to distrust her.

Once she did start discussing it with Rick, he tried to avoid it, & also behaved autocratically by banishing her. Just as the sickies might have survived if Carol hadn't killed them, Carol might've been OK with the group. The real issue is that Rick will tolerate violence from rage, but not violence for a calculated purpose.

Were any innocent people killed from rage induced violence?

 

[Revoltingest]

Even if it could be argued that it was a reasonable decision, it was made behind everyone's back.

Ironically, Rick decided to betray Michonne by planning to give her to the Governor for torture & murder. He was willing to kill an ally for the group's perceived (falsely) benefit. Yet he stayed in the group.

You don't just blindly trust a single individual's judgement to simply go around killing people without the group's council and consensus. So even if killing them was reasonable, despite the potential for recovery and the fact that it failed to stop the spread, taking such power into her own hands in secret is reason enough for the group to distrust her.

I accept that she could've handled it better, but it still appears that there's a theme that violence, even destructive violence, is OK if one is fueled by emotion. To do the hard thing without emotion is what's wrong.

Were any innocent people killed from rage induced violence?

Gawd....so many deaths, so much questionable innocence...I don't know.

 

[Quagmire]

Really? He's sort of fought off the leadership role from the get go.

Yeah, but old habits and mindsets are hard to break.

He fell into the job and title because it came naturally to him to protect and serve but he was perfectly fine submitting to someone else's decision in the farm.

He didn't really have a choice about that, other than over-throwing Hershel by force. You'll notice that he made his "this is no longer a democracy speech" on the first night after they left the farm.

The idea of killing that kid was a group decision and he seemed content with going with whatever the group decided.

I think that had a lot to do with his being conflicted over the issue himself.

However, I do think you are right about Rick not being involved but I don't think it's an alpha male egotistical type of reason.

Probably not. I think it's more about his still feeling responsible for the whole show.

He just wants to know what is coming so he can react accordingly and protect those around him.

Exactly.

 

[Quagmire]

As a child, he is by default.

Yeah, but that's one of the things we watch TV to get away from.

 

[Quagmire]

I don't think it's so much about him than it is the group as a whole. Taking such extreme measures behind everyone's back that were arguably unnecessary and murder is a legitimate reason to be concerned.

That and the fact that Carol's probably changed more quickly and more drastically than any other member. At this point, she's an unknown quantity for Rick, which would also make him nervous.

...but I suspect that Carol is actually covering up and taking the fall for the real killer, that one sick girl.

That would be a good twist but I don't think the little girl would have been able to drag the bodies all that way.

 

[Revoltingest]

That and the fact that Carol's probably changed more quickly and more drastically than any other member. At this point, she's an unknown quantity for Rick, which would also make him nervous.

Aye! She's become interesting, & I hope we see more of her adventures soon.

 

[Quagmire]

Aye! She's become interesting, & I hope we see more of her adventures soon.

Me too. Her leaving opens up all kinds of interesting possibilities. A lone woman with excellent---but new and not very deeply rooted---confidence and coping skills cast adrift in a zombie apocalypse. No telling where that's going to go.

 

[Revoltingest]

Me too. Her leaving opens up all kinds of interesting possibilities. A lone woman with excellent---but new and not very deeply rooted---confidence and coping skills cast adrift in a zombie apocalypse. No telling where that's going to go.

She could lead a group.

 

[Quagmire]

She could lead a group.

For some reason I have this picture of Carol winding up leading a group of kids. Not sure why other than the fact that I have a habit of writing my own extra episodes in my head (AMC isn't churning them out fast enough).

 

[Willamena]

I got it my head that she took the blame for one her girls, and if it comes out then she could be allowed back. Will have to wait and see.

 

[freethinker44]

For some reason I have this picture of Carol winding up leading a group of kids. Not sure why other than the fact that I have a habit of writing my own extra episodes in my head (AMC isn't churning them out fast enough).

I could be wrong, but I don't think Carol has ever seen the Governor in person, so I'm thinking she might unknowingly find her way to him and be the catalyst in bringing him back into the picture somehow. Hopefully she doesn't become Andrea part 2 though. Not saying she will knowingly help him attack the prison, but who knows, she does have this new "anything to survive" mindset.

 

[Revoltingest]

Carl is proving quite useful.
I also see that.....nah, I won't mention it til tomorrow (no spoiler).

 

[Father Heathen]

I think the next two episodes are supposed to be Governor flashbacks.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'd like to see Michonne disassemble the Governor.