The War on Christmas comes to Ohio

[Sonofason]

You aren't following. There is nothing 100 years ago that said that cellphones were impossible. By the time you discover radiowaves and other such information-carrying things, it's no longer "that can't happen" it's "that isn't possible right now". But death? No one and nothing has ever come back from death. If Jesus were 'resurrected' in the way you claim, that God did something that was wholly natural, then Jesus did not die. We'll need a different word for it, because death cannot be cheated.

Whatever, go back 200 years then. At some point in history it was not conceivable to human beings.

 

[Sonofason]

You aren't following. There is nothing 100 years ago that said that cellphones were impossible. By the time you discover radiowaves and other such information-carrying things, it's no longer "that can't happen" it's "that isn't possible right now". But death? No one and nothing has ever come back from death. If Jesus were 'resurrected' in the way you claim, that God did something that was wholly natural, then Jesus did not die. We'll need a different word for it, because death cannot be cheated.

We don't have a different word for it, so dead will have to suffice.

 

[Yes]

Yes, I do not believe that God is supernatural. What God is capable of doing is completely natural for God to do. I'd like to see a human being, why not you, quickly grow a pair of wings, fly into, and land in my backyard like a bird. What? You can't? That is because it would be completely unnatural for a human being to grow wings, at least at this point in our evolutionary history. But it is completely natural for a bird to grow wings, and, it is completely natural for one of them to land in my back yard. We are not God. What is natural for God is not necessarily natural to us. Some things may be. But not necessarily everything. We cannot raise people from the dead at this point in time. If a person were to raise someone from the dead it ought to be something to be considered completely supernatural, that is unless it was not in fact the person who did the raising of the dead, but perhaps a God who did the raising of the dead. I see no reason to think that God is incapable of raising someone from the dead, since history says it happened. But perhaps you don't believe that really happened in history. You tell me.

I believe that God raised people from the dead. I believe that God did many miracles, during the laying of the foundation.

During the laying of the foundation, God allowed Jesus, and the disciples do many miraculous things. God allowed them to do many miraculous things, so as to testify to what they were saying, so that others might believe that what they were saying was from God.

Hebrews 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Acts 14:3
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

The foundation has already been laid.

Even though God works miracles in our lives, He does not testify, as He once did, during the laying of the foundation.

 

[Yes]

Yes, I do not believe that God is supernatural. What God is capable of doing is completely natural for God to do. I'd like to see a human being, why not you, quickly grow a pair of wings, fly into, and land in my backyard like a bird. What? You can't? That is because it would be completely unnatural for a human being to grow wings, at least at this point in our evolutionary history. But it is completely natural for a bird to grow wings, and, it is completely natural for one of them to land in my back yard. We are not God. What is natural for God is not necessarily natural to us. Some things may be. But not necessarily everything. We cannot raise people from the dead at this point in time. If a person were to raise someone from the dead it ought to be something to be considered completely supernatural, that is unless it was not in fact the person who did the raising of the dead, but perhaps a God who did the raising of the dead. I see no reason to think that God is incapable of raising someone from the dead, since history says it happened. But perhaps you don't believe that really happened in history. You tell me.

God, during the laying of the foundation of the New Testament, testified to what Jesus said, and He testified to what the disciples said. God testified to what they said by allowing them to do many miracles in His name.

God still helps us Supernaturally, sometimes.

 

[Sonofason]

God, during the laying of the foundation of the New Testament, testified to what Jesus said, and He testified to what the disciples said. God testified to what they said by allowing them to do many miracles in His name.

God still helps us Supernaturally, sometimes.

Yes, it is unnatural for a man to do miracles. Thus, if God had enabled a man to do miracles in His name, then the man doing miracles would indeed be performing something supernatural. But I don't believe God is supernatural. God is God, and it is perfectly natural for Him to be God.

 

[Yes]

Yes, it is unnatural for a man to do miracles. Thus, if God had enabled a man to do miracles in His name, then the man doing miracles would indeed be performing something supernatural. But I don't believe God is supernatural. God is God, and it is perfectly natural for Him to be God.

Of course, God is Supernatural. However, God created this world for us the way He wanted it to operate, but He still helps us Supernaturally sometimes, but not as He did while He was testifying to the gospel during the laying of the foundation.

 

[Sonofason]

Of course, God is Supernatural. However, God created this world for us the way He wanted it to operate, but He still helps us Supernaturally sometimes, but not as He did while He was testifying to the gospel during the laying of the foundation.

Please define supernatural.
Is the universe natural, or supernatural?
Are the contents of the universe natural or supernatural?

 

[Yes]

Please define supernatural.
Is the universe natural, or supernatural?
Are the contents of the universe natural or supernatural?

I believe that we live in a natural world.
However, I do believe that Jesus does help us Supernaturally, sometimes.
Jesus might not raise anyone from the dead anymore, but he can if he wanted.
Jesus might not raise anyone from the dead anymore, but he still helps us Supernaturally sometimes.

 

[Sonofason]

I believe that we live in a natural world.
However, I do believe that Jesus does help us Supernaturally, sometimes.
Jesus might not raise anyone from the dead anymore, but he can if he wanted.
Jesus might not raise anyone from the dead anymore, but he still helps us Supernaturally sometimes.

So the universe is natural? Does that mean that the universe exists naturally?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe that God raised people from the dead. I believe that God did many miracles, during the laying of the foundation.

If so, then why should we consider the resurrection of Jesus to be special?

 

[Yes]

So the universe is natural? Does that mean that the universe exists naturally?

What are you getting at, and why do you sound as if you are contradicting yourself?

 

[Yes]

If so, then why should we consider the resurrection of Jesus to be special?

Jesus is the fulfillment of the scriptures.
Jesus paid our debt.
We have reconciliation to God through Jesus.
We are born again, which means we are given a new life with all our sins washed away.
We are given the Holy Spirit. We become the temple of the Living God.

 

[Sonofason]

What are you getting at, and why do you sound as if you are contradicting yourself?

I don't think I'm contradicting myself. You seem to suggest that when God does something it is supernatural. And I'm perfectly fine with that, as it helps us distinguish those things that God is capable of doing from those things that perhaps we are capable of doing. The problem is, I think the word supernatural is somewhat a meaningless word. For example, we have this word unnatural. What exactly is that? Is there anything in this world that is unnatural? Is it natural or unnatural for a person to sew seed in the field? Is it natural or unnatural for a person to make cellphones?

You had said that "we live in a natural world". Does that mean that we are natural? Is what we do as human beings natural, or is it unnatural? If God is supernatural, wouldn't anything he does be supernatural? I mean, wouldn't his creation be supernatural as well? Aren't the stars and planets supernatural? Aren't we and the animals and plants all supernatural since we are all creations of our God?

Or could it be that everything is completely natural? Human beings don't grow wings and fly into the air. That would not be natural. That means it would have to be either unnatural, or supernatural. But how could such a thing happen naturally? If some DNA mutation should occur that causes you to grow wings, that would be completely natural, would it not? Human beings tamper with DNA. It appears to be something we are naturally inclined to do. If it is not natural for us to do such things, where does such a propensity come from? Does it come from God? Does it come from Satan?

I'm just saying, I think that which is natural is that which is according to the will of God. That which is unnatural is not in accordance with the will of God. And that which is supernatural is something which ordinarily could not be done, say for a human, but God, for His own purposes allows that person to be capable of it.

But God I believe is natural. He exists naturally. It is His nature to exist. It's everything else that is supernatural.

So yes, maybe I'm contradicting myself. Help me out.

 

[Yes]

I don't think I'm contradicting myself. You seem to suggest that when God does something it is supernatural. And I'm perfectly fine with that, as it helps us distinguish those things that God is capable of doing from those things that perhaps we are capable of doing. The problem is, I think the word supernatural is somewhat a meaningless word. For example, we have this word unnatural. What exactly is that? Is there anything in this world that is unnatural? Is it natural or unnatural for a person to sew seed in the field? Is it natural or unnatural for a person to make cellphones?

You had said that "we live in a natural world". Does that mean that we are natural? Is what we do as human beings natural, or is it unnatural? If God is supernatural, wouldn't anything he does be supernatural? I mean, wouldn't his creation be supernatural as well? Aren't the stars and planets supernatural? Aren't we and the animals and plants all supernatural since we are all creations of our God?

Or could it be that everything is completely natural? Human beings don't grow wings and fly into the air. That would not be natural. That means it would have to be either unnatural, or supernatural. But how could such a thing happen naturally? If some DNA mutation should occur that causes you to grow wings, that would be completely natural, would it not? Human beings tamper with DNA. It appears to be something we are naturally inclined to do. If it is not natural for us to do such things, where does such a propensity come from? Does it come from God? Does it come from Satan?

I'm just saying, I think that which is natural is that which is according to the will of God. That which is unnatural is not in accordance with the will of God. And that which is supernatural is something which ordinarily could not be done, say for a human, but God, for His own purposes allows that person to be capable of it.

But God I believe is natural. He exists naturally. It is His nature to exist. It's everything else that is supernatural.

So yes, maybe I'm contradicting myself. Help me out.

You are a deep thinker. I can help you out. Here it is...stop thinking about that. No but really. I’m saying this as a friend in Christ, as someone who really wants to help. How about think more of, “Is it good or evil, is it right or is it wrong”? Maybe it will help to think of it that way instead of natural and unnatural. God made this world to function as it does...we are to ask others for help when we need it, go to a doctor, yet still expecting a miracle from God. Go to a dentist; buy our food at stores, and go to work… We have to call for a plumber, an electrician, a roofer… That is just natural ways of the world. If we concentrate too much on natural and unnatural, we might not be able to draw the line between good and bad. I want to eat natural foods, but I do not want to eat dirt, which is natural.
You are right, anything a man can think up and do could be considered natural, or how else could he do it? However, but is it right? We are not doing these things supernaturally. It might be natural to not be able to conceive, and natural to conceive, and even natural to conceive by way of a test tube baby…but is it right? What do think? Did I help?

 

[Sonofason]

You are a deep thinker. I can help you out. Here it is...stop thinking about that. No but really. I’m saying this as a friend in Christ, as someone who really wants to help. How about think more of, “Is it good or evil, is it right or is it wrong”? Maybe it will help to think of it that way instead of natural and unnatural. God made this world to function as it does...we are to ask others for help when we need it, go to a doctor, yet still expecting a miracle from God. Go to a dentist; buy our food at stores, and go to work… We have to call for a plumber, an electrician, a roofer… That is just natural ways of the world. If we concentrate too much on natural and unnatural, we might not be able to draw the line between good and bad. I want to eat natural foods, but I do not want to eat dirt, which is natural.
You are right, anything a man can think up and do could be considered natural, or how else could he do it? However, but is it right? We are not doing these things supernaturally. It might be natural to not be able to conceive, and natural to conceive, and even natural to conceive by way of a test tube baby…but is it right? What do think? Did I help?

I think God is in the business of refining Gold.

 

[Yes]

I think God is in the business of refining Gold.

Yes He is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus is the fulfillment of the scriptures.
Jesus paid our debt.
We have reconciliation to God through Jesus.
We are born again, which means we are given a new life with all our sins washed away.
We are given the Holy Spirit. We become the temple of the Living God.

That doesn't really address what I was getting at.

I realize that Christians generally believe that Jesus' death and resurrection had major implications, but I'm talking about something a few steps earlier in the chain of reasoning.

I've heard Christians argue that when Jesus appeared to his followers after his death, this implied that he was divine... but according to the Gospels, all sorts of people were showing up after they had died. Why would someone living at that time say "well, an unspecified number of people have risen from the grave and appeared to people in Jerusalem, so I'm going to assume that one of those people, Jesus, was special and not the rest"?

 

[Yes]

That doesn't really address what I was getting at.

I realize that Christians generally believe that Jesus' death and resurrection had major implications, but I'm talking about something a few steps earlier in the chain of reasoning.

I've heard Christians argue that when Jesus appeared to his followers after his death, this implied that he was divine... but according to the Gospels, all sorts of people were showing up after they had died. Why would someone living at that time say "well, an unspecified number of people have risen from the grave and appeared to people in Jerusalem, so I'm going to assume that one of those people, Jesus, was special and not the rest"?

Jesus is the only one who has First what we will receive Last...and that is an immortal body. Other people were raised out of their graves with their earthly mortal body.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Jesus is the fulfillment of the scriptures.
Jesus paid our debt.
We have reconciliation to God through Jesus.
We are born again, which means we are given a new life with all our sins washed away.
We are given the Holy Spirit. We become the temple of the Living God.

This assumes I even have a debt. I am not a sinner just because someone who lived thousands of years ago wrote that I am.

 

[Yes]

This assumes I even have a debt. I am not a sinner just because someone who lived thousands of years ago wrote that I am.

God says that those who reject Him are stubborn and rebellious.

Would you like scripture references?