The War on Christmas

[McBell]

Now, kindly tell me what question, from Storm, you feel I have not addressed.

Post #280:

"So, the ignorance of others excuses your own?"​

 

[andys]

Mestwhatever,
Here I thought you had a legitimate question that you wanted me to answer.

I should have guessed it was just more of the same.

Run along now.

 

[McBell]

Mestwhatever,
Here I thought you had a legitimate question that you wanted me to answer.

I should have guessed it was just more of the same.

Run along now.

so much for that alleged graduation of yours....


I mean really.
How could you have "graduated philosophy" without any reading comprehension?

 

[andys]

One doesn't graduate philosophy, one graduates IN philosophy. (But not every one, evidently.)

 

[McBell]

One doesn't graduate philosophy, one graduates IN philosophy. (But not every one, evidently.)

You truly are the master of avoidance.

 

[andys]

I wish I were, then I could avoid you.

 

[McBell]

I wish I were, then I could avoid you.

No worries, I will be putting you on ignore.
Like I do with all the rest of those here on RF who are just plain out right full of **** and not afraid to prove it with every post.

 

[andys]

Good, let's hope Mestemia is true to his word so that the rest of us can resume the debate without any further nonsense.

 

[Anti-thesisofreason]

Some of you have expressed an interest in whether or not I am a "pagan", or how I can consider myself one, if I am an atheist. As an atheist, I have been called a pagan (also a heathen) quite often by theists. The word pagan has no clear meaning that I have been able to discover, except to exclude any affiliation with a god or a religion.

That this word has no clear application is supported by a number of reputable sources. Let me quote one which explores this matter in considerable detail:
"Everybody has their favorite definition of the word 'Pagan.' Most people are convinced that their meaning is the correct one. But no consensus exists, even within a single faith tradition or religion as to the 'correct" definition of "Pagan.' The same problem happens with the definition of 'Christianity,' and probably with many other religions." (Meanings of the terms Pagan and Paganism)

Another quote:
"There is no generally accepted, single, current definition for the word 'Pagan' .The word is among the terms that the newsgroup alt.usage.english, calls 'skunk words'.They have varied meanings to different people. The field of religion is rife with such words. consider: Christian, cult, hell, heaven, occult, Paganism, pluralism, salvation, Witch, Witchcraft, Unitarian Universalist, Voodoo, etc. Each has so many meanings that they often cause misunderstandings wherever they are used. Unfortunately, most people do not know this, and naturally assume that the meaning that they have been taught is universally accepted. A reader must often look at the context in which the word is used in order to guess at the intent of the writer."

According to U.S. Newswire:
"The National Clergy Council and Operation Save Our Nation havescheduled for 2000-OCT-28 a 'Jericho March' of 100 religious 'intercessors' around Capitol Hill and the White House. President of the Council, the Rev. Rob Schenck said: 'The concept behind this Jericho March is to 'tear down' the walls of the new 'Washington Paganism' -- the secularization, New Ageism and postmodern amoralism -- epitomized in the Clinton-Gore Administration, in the morally weak leadership in the Congress, and in the liberal members of the Supreme Court."




I hope this answers your question.

I think we need to look at more than one source and also consider the etymology of the word pagan before we decide if it has a solid definition or not. I prefer this definition over the way the word is mostly used today which is a term of slang or slander.

Pagan: late 14c., from L.L. paganus "pagan," in classical L. "villager, rustic, civilian," from pagus "rural district," originally "district limited by markers," thus related to pangere "to fix, fasten," from PIE base *pag- "to fix" (see pact). Religious sense is often said to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c.202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (e.g. milites "soldier of Christ," etc.). Applied to modern pantheists and nature-worshippers from 1908.


Edit: Sorry forgot the source: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pagan

 

[gnomon]

Gnomon,
I trust your interest is genuine and not sarcastic.
The "takeover" of the Yuletide celebration of the winter solstice happened in the 4th Century, after Christianity was adopted as the official religion by the first Roman Emperor, Constantine.

The people were reluctant to give up their party time, so Constantine declared Christmas a feast to be celebrated on December 25, the birth date of the Sun God, Mithra. Over time, the Church reassigned its own meaning to the beloved age-old customs and traditions. The evergreen Christmas Tree, which symbolized eternal replenishment of crops, (and was banished by Jesus in the Bible), was proclaimed to symbolize the Holy Trinity (because of its triangular shape). The Solstice festival, the celebration of the birth of the Sun, was changed to celebrate the birth of the Son.

Personally, I find it so terribly sad to have lost such a beautiful universal celebration, so steeped in Man's history and so genuine in it expression of gratitude for Nature's replenishment of the Earth every year in the midst of winter.
In three minutes, as I write, the Winter Solstice will be over, and few people living today will have given this important historic occasion a second thought.[/quote

Evidence.

Yes, I am being truly genuine.

Yule was practiced predominantly in Germanic regions. Not Rome. Constantine did not wave a wand and eliminate the traditions of people that were not even under Roman rule.

Try again. You have provided no argument at all about how those Christians "took" those pagan traditions. But then again, neither have modern pagans ever provided such an argument. Modern pagans today who are actually more guilty of "making up" traditions and calling them old and then pointing a damning finger at Christians out of sheer ignorance.......hey, maybe you are a pagan.

edit: No. Most pagans know better.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Ah, Sojourner,
I agree that "There's nothing wrong with assigning meaning to cultural icons."
As long as they're YOUR own icons! You sneaky little Christians assigned YOUR meaning to OUR "icons" and then you whine that WE are demeaning the "true" meaning of this age-old, pre-Christmas celebration. I want to throw up.

Here you clearly indicate that the icons of ancient religions are YOURS. Most of us find this hard to believe since you have stated that you are an atheist. Thus these icons could not be YOURS unless you are being dishonest and are actually a follower of the ancient religions and not an atheist.

In any case, whether I am speaking FOR, or ON BEHALF of pagans who have had their age-old celebration taken over, that fact still remains.

Here you backtrack a little, they are not YOUR icons, but rather you speak on THEIR behalf. Although your pitiful attempt at wordplay..."Gee, by the broadest definition or Pagan, all atheists are pagan", indicates that you still do not see how you have associated yourself with a religious belief that you, as an atheist, have no part in.

Now lick your wounds and try to win this argument by addressing the argument.

OK, lets address this...

"Even the date of Christmas, December 25, was borrowed from another religion. At the time Christmas was created in AD 320, Mithraism was very popular. The early Christian church had gotten tired of their futile efforts to stop people celebrating the solstice and the birthday of Mithras, the Persian sun god. Mithras’ birthday was December 25. So the pope at the time decided to make Jesus’ official birthday coincide with Mithras’ birthday. No one knows what time of year Jesus was actually born but there is evidence to suggest that it was in midsummer."
(The Pagan Origins of Christmas)

All the information we have today on the Mithras worship is derived from a few monuments to Mithras. These depict Mithras as born from a rock and sacrificing a bull. His worshippers had a complex system of seven grades of initiation, with ritual meals. They met in underground temples. Little else is known for certain.
There is no concrete evidence that Mithras was associated with the sun god of Persia, this was a speculation made by Franz Cumon that was largely rejected by later historians, although not totally out of the realm of possibility.
Most modern historians believe the cult originated in Rome, by a single founder who had some knowledge of both Greek and Oriental religion.
It is thought by most historians that Mithras was worshiped predominately by Roman soldiers, however, Mithraism never became a state cult, unlike the official late Roman Sol Invictus cult.
No official records indicate a date for the 'birth' of Mithras from the rock, it is often stated that Mithras was born on December 25. In truth, the only evidence for it is the celebration of the birthday of Sol Invictus on that date. Sol Invictus was Aurelian's sun god. It does not follow that a different, earlier, and unofficial sun god, Mithras, was necessarily or even probably, born on that day too.
Encyclopaedia Iranica
Beck on Mithraism: collected works ... - Google Books
Mithraic Mysteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now go and lick your own wounds.

 

[Charity]

Have you heard of the "Advent Conspiracy"? Bill O'Reilly and other defenders of a real Jesus centered Christmas bemoans the people going around and saying "Happy Holiday" instead of "Marry Christmas" as a greeting during the month of Dec. They also want church people to stop being part of the $450 billion 'present' giving and give a lot more to the church so the pastors will have more money to build bigger and better religious complexes. Many of these pastors wages are set up on a percentage of the church income so what helps God's money also helps the pastors income.
Anyone want to comment?:cold:

I have been in church all my life and I have never heard any pastor say anything aabout gift giving.
As far as anyone in a ministry they have to be able to live, they need food, clothing, housing, insurance, automobiles all of these things the same as anyone else who works for a living. Does a doctor work for free? Does a professional fortune teller or physic work for free? No everyone deserves some compensation for their labor.
If a physician gets paid for taking care of the body then why not get paid for healing the soul or the mind?

I think it only fair to pay a salary to a person who is available to the church 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Would you be willing to give those hours for free?

I do agree that many churches go way off course with building programs and other such waste of money when they could indeed use it for something better like helping people who are hungry or can't afford medicine. Many churches do have these programs but they aren't the main priority. They build great buildings that only have people inside a couple hours a week. Most churches need to restructure their thought process. Cutting the salary or not paying the pastor is certainly not the answer.....

 

[Arlanbb]

I have been in church all my life and I have never heard any pastor say anything aabout gift giving.
As far as anyone in a ministry they have to be able to live, they need food, clothing, housing, insurance, automobiles all of these things the same as anyone else who works for a living. Does a doctor work for free? Does a professional fortune teller or physic work for free? No everyone deserves some compensation for their labor.
If a physician gets paid for taking care of the body then why not get paid for healing the soul or the mind?

I think it only fair to pay a salary to a person who is available to the church 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Would you be willing to give those hours for free? I agree on a salary but here are many pastors that have a SLIDING salary, the more the people give the more the pastor gets. I know because my brother, three cousins, and a few other friends were all ministers and if your church kept loosing offering you would be moved on and if it comes in more than the last minister the higher ups love you because they also get bonisses. Ministers DO NOT need expencives Cads to drive around in. You must not have watched any of the religious TV shows that preach "the more you give - the more God will give you" programs. Some of these folks live in 10 and 12 bedroom homes.

I do agree that many churches go way off course with building programs and other such waste of money when they could indeed use it for something better like helping people who are hungry or can't afford medicine. Many churches do have these programs but they aren't the main priority. They build great buildings that only have people inside a couple hours a week. Most churches need to restructure their thought process. Cutting the salary or not paying the pastor is certainly not the answer.....

No one said anything like that.

 

[imaginaryme]

I don't know, but that's what I say to people. They say, Merry Xmas, and I say, Happy Mithras Day! The way I heard it, he was born of a virgin on the 25th, died for all man's sins being hanged from a tree; and the logical transformation of a soldier's cult becoming "the same thing only different" under Constantine...

 

[blackout]

It really is funny how people need to "own" stuff so badly.

Sure. Own your Life! Carpe diem.

Seize your day. Be alive in it.

Each day is your 'present day'.

Pick, pluck and gather your meaning & decorum.

Adorn the tree of your Life as you see fit.

Light the candles of your own intent.


Every life... each person... is their own unique statement.

Why is this so hard to appreciate.


Our christmas spirit has come in the form of a Bunny this year.
Warm, white, cuddly, fuzzy, cozy love.

I wonder what Easter will bring.......

 

[Kilgore Trout]

It really is funny how people need to "own" stuff so badly.

Sure. Own your Life! Carpe diem.

Seize your day. Be alive in it.
Enjoy the 'present day'.

Pick, pluck and gather your meaning & decorum.

Adorn the tree of your Life as you see fit.

Light the candles of your own intent.


Every life... each person... is their own unique statement.

Why is this so hard to appreciate.


Our christmas spirit has come in the form of a Bunny this year.
Warm, white, cuddly, fuzzy, cozy love.

I wonder what Easter will bring.......

Rabbit stew?

Just kidding - however my French mother-in-law does make rabbit every Easter. This one act pretty well encapsulates her personality.

 

[blackout]

Rabbit stew?

Just kidding - however my French mother-in-law does make rabbit every Easter. This one act pretty well encapsulates her personality.

:bunny:


That is exactly what I mean.

(Your posts always make me laugh. :rainbow1: )

 

[andys]

Anti-thesisofreaon
Your reference only serves to support what I have been repeating over and over, that the word pagan is ambiguous and very accommodating of other interpretations. It can't be nailed down to one.

"Religious sense is often said to derive from conservative rural adherence to the old gods after the Christianization of Roman towns and cities; but the word in this sense predates that period in Church history, and it is more likely derived from the use of paganus in Roman military jargon for "civilian, incompetent soldier," which Christians (Tertullian, c.202; Augustine) picked up with the military imagery of the early Church (e.g. milites "soldier of Christ," etc.)."

So now I'm a civilian, incompetent soldier.

This is a silly game. I can find all kinds of reputable sources to support my use of this vague word. Here's one that should make us both happy:
"1 : heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2 : one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods: an irreligious or hedonistic person. [There!]
(pagan - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)

 

[sojourner]

Tumbleweed41,
What part of this do you not understand?
"There is no generally accepted, single, current definition for the word 'Pagan' . The word is among the terms that the newsgroup alt.usage.english, calls 'skunk words'. They have varied meanings to different people. The field of religion is rife with such words. Consider: Christian, cult, hell, heaven, occult, Paganism, pluralism, salvation, Witch, Witchcraft, Unitarian Universalist, Voodoo, etc. Each has so many meanings that they often cause misunderstandings wherever they are used. Unfortunately, most people do not know this, and naturally assume that the meaning that they have been taught is universally accepted. A reader must often look at the context in which the word is used in order to guess at the intent of the writer."

Or if that is not sufficient for your preoccupied mind, the President of the The National Clergy Council, the Rev. Rob Schencka uses the term "pagan" exactly as I understand it to mean, namely, "secular" (the state of being separate from religion):

His exact words:

"The concept behind this Jericho March is to 'tear down' the walls of the new 'Washington Paganism' — the secularization, New Ageism and postmodern amoralism — epitomized in the Clinton-Gore Administration, in the morally weak leadership in the Congress, and in the liberal members of the Supreme Court."

Now lick your wounds and try to win this argument by addressing the argument.

So what? Since there is "no exact definition," that means that there can be any number of different sorts of pagans -- religious and non-religious. Since it would have been the religious pagans who celebrated the holiday from which Christmas was derived (seeing as how the converts were converted from following other gods), then your form of paganism would have nothing to do with the paganism under discussion here. Therefore, your use of the term "we" when describing those pagans is wrong. it is not "we" but "they" you are discussing, and there is no victimization of you going on.

 

[sojourner]

Gnomon,
I trust your interest is genuine and not sarcastic.
The "takeover" of the Yuletide celebration of the winter solstice happened in the 4th Century, after Christianity was adopted as the official religion by the first Roman Emperor, Constantine.

The people were reluctant to give up their party time, so Constantine declared Christmas a feast to be celebrated on December 25, the birth date of the Sun God, Mithra. Over time, the Church reassigned its own meaning to the beloved age-old customs and traditions. The evergreen Christmas Tree, which symbolized eternal replenishment of crops, (and was banished by Jesus in the Bible), was proclaimed to symbolize the Holy Trinity (because of its triangular shape). The Solstice festival, the celebration of the birth of the Sun, was changed to celebrate the birth of the Son.

Personally, I find it so terribly sad to have lost such a beautiful universal celebration, so steeped in Man's history and so genuine in it expression of gratitude for Nature's replenishment of the Earth every year in the midst of winter.
In three minutes, as I write, the Winter Solstice will be over, and few people living today will have given this important historic occasion a second thought.

Actually, the conversion was taking place long before Constantine. It was begun, as Gnomon said, by pagan converts, who kept the traditions and incorporated them into their new faith. All Constantine did was make a carefully calculated political decision.
BTW, Jesus did not condemn Christmas trees. The passage in question has nothing to do with Christmas trees, and Jesus did not quote the passage.
BTBTW, did you notice that the festival was to celebrate the birth of a god? Hmmm... I wonder how an atheist could usurp an obviously theist festival and call it his own, then decry the Christian-Pagans for doing the same thing?