The witchhunt continues...

[Subduction Zone]

Superficial judgments like what is on the surface; dresses like a woman, is also the basis for racism; has black skin on the surface. What is down deep like DNA or character, is not being considered by the Left. The approach of the Left is similar to racism; look at the shallow surface only, and not anything deeper.

It would be like saying a White Supremisist can get all the benefits given by the NAACP, if they color their skin black without having to change what is deeper in their psyche. This is too shallow for me and will not always end well, since the surface does not fully define any person, but can be used to game the system.

Using the women's rest room appears to be more needed to complete an ensemble; surface, than to nest with the hens; instinct. Shallow may be good enough for the Left but other people are deeper and need to be respected.

Transgender is very shallow, mostly based on surface changes, but not deep down change, or else women and girls would not feel uneasy. Sometime you can sense something deeper not seen on the surface.

You appear to have this backwards. It is the right that improperly tries to claim it is about "feelings". A deeper look into this tells you that it is a real phenomenon. The shallow end of the gene pool once again appears to be on the right side.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The problem is that a defintion only is about the usage of a word and not whether it is a fact as such.
If I make a defintion of the word God meaning a supernatural being, which created the universe, then that is not the same as it is fact, that there is a supernatural being, which created the universe.
For words it is a fact, that they all require brains to work, have a meaning and a referent, and that those 3 are not the same.
So when dealing with words, you also that to include the referent. What the word is about as what it refers to and not just its meaning.

There is even more when we include objective, social and individual for words dependent on brains and not dependent for their referent.

I 100% agree that words meaning change. The problem is they still have a meaning. What does it mean to be a woman or man? What characteristics define those terms? Defining a man as simply "I say I am a man" is not a definition of any word ever. When you say you are a man what does that mean? When someone says they feel like a man what do they feel like? Nobody will answer this.

 

[anna.]

I would call this something like a "new, growing trend". It's easy enough to do an internet search.

@anna. - same for you.

So when you say "It's no longer uncommon to see trans women sporting full, thick beards" you aren't speaking from personal experience, but an internet search will tell me how common it is now? Well, I did a search and didn't find anything that supports your allegation.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That's not what I addressed you saying earlier. Again, here is what you said:

"that child is still not their actual child."

Those words. "ACTUAL child".

Those are the words I took issue with, because you are implying that a child who is adopted is somehow "not the ACTUAL child" of their adoptive parents. But they are. They're just not the BIOLOGICAL child. Do you understand?

If you want to use actual as both adopted and birth children that is ok. It still does not change the fact that adopted and birth children to parents are not the same.

That's fine, but do you understand the mentality that I'm pointing out here?

Nope. I don't understand how this pertains to the discussion because I can call an adopted child the parents actual child but if the parents asked me if the child was their birth child then I would say no. Same as a transgender man, I will call them a man if they want but if they ask me if I believe they are a man I would say no.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

The point I made is this: the word man is not static in the sense of only referring to biological males, but can refer to mankind, specific professions or stations (the members of which are not necessarily male) such as postman, lineman, or policeman, or to an individual member (not necessarily male) of a group or team. Man does not always specifically mean biological male, nor does it always refer to a biological male. It isn't all about sex, and there is so much more to life than sex. or biology, for that matter.

Other relational words are not always confined to biology, either. Father, mother, daughter, son, brother, sister does not always refer to biological father, mother, son, daughter, brother, or sister. Aunt and uncle can refer to a wide range of people, not necessarily family (biological or adopted) members. Cousins can be stretched even further, sometimes even referring to relationships between two different species. Man has an even farther range than that.

Is a transgender man the same as a biological man? Are these two people the same?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I 100% agree that words meaning change. The problem is they still have a meaning. What does it mean to be a woman or man? What characteristics define those terms? Defining a man as simply "I say I am a man" is not a definition of any word ever. When you say you are a man what does that mean? When someone says they feel like a man what do they feel like? Nobody will answer this.

Well, there are several parts to it.
The first is that I always have a portable chromosome testsystem on me, so I can test any person for their sex chromosones. Secondly I also make them strip naked so I can check their sexual physical characteristics. And thirdly I kill anybody who are not XX or XY or have diffuse sexual physical characteristics, because they are unnatural for the real objective natural world and reality.
How do you do it, when you test the sex of another human?

 

[YmirGF]

Nice cope.

Any actual argument?

Nope. I give up. This path forward will only end in frustration. I've better things to do.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

You said it was a lie to call a transwoman a woman.

Yes that would be untrue.

Transwomen call themselves women, and she? In your definition, that is a lie.

Nope, transgender women feel like and think they are an actual woman. They are not lying. I have never accused them of lying. You have accused me of calling them liars which is untrue.

And now are stubbornly asking the same question I have already answered, as if when I answer and don't say what you want me to say, I didn't answer.

You are fixated that "what" you are is physical and only physical. This is a blindingly narrow way of thinking about the complexities of human life -- when in fact they only thing that makes us truly different from other animals is our brain, how we use our minds. In fact, in every other way, we're inferior to most animals. We're weaker -- a chimpanzee could rip your arm off before you could do it any harm at all -- our senses are duller than most animals. But our brains make us who we truly are. Humans have done the most amazing things with those brains. We've invented tools that allow us to complete re-shape our world (or destroy it). We've left this planet and walked on the surface of the moon. We have a telescope a million miles away observing the universe as its never been observed before.

But to you, if you are born with a penis -- all of you, including both your penis and the brain that knows itself as youl -- must be a man. The brain has nothing to do with it, and if the brain happens to feel like a female, then it is lying to itself.

And I know, nothing I say is ever going to change your mind. I rather suspect that may be in part because you perceive "male" -- you know, owning a penis and testicles -- as being so much superior, and nobody without them better think themselves as good as you.

A most impoverished viewpoint, in my opinion. So I'm done discussing it with you.

Ok, Just note you have never defined the characteristics of what a woman or man is. When a transgender woman says they are a woman what are they actually saying about themselves? What characteristics do they think make them a woman?

It is interesting that instead of answering my question above many people, you included, would rather insult me that answer the question.

 

[crossfire]

Is a transgender man the same as a biological man? Are these two people the same?

Biologically,no. Socially, I would like to hope that one day transgender men would be widely socially accepted as men.

 

[fantome profane]

This isn't new. But maybe putting it behind an old film grain lens will help?

And look how far we have come.

In the wrong direction.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Well, there are several parts to it.
The first is that I always have a portable chromosome testsystem on me, so I can test any person for their sex chromosones. Secondly I also make them strip naked so I can check their sexual physical characteristics. And thirdly I kill anybody who are not XX or XY or have diffuse sexual physical characteristics, because they are unnatural for the real objective natural world and reality.
How do you do it, when you test the sex of another human?

That is not an answer to my question. Here it is again:

I 100% agree that words meaning change. The problem is they still have a meaning. What does it mean to be a woman or man? What characteristics define those terms? Defining a man as simply "I say I am a man" is not a definition of any word ever. When you say you are a man what does that mean? When someone says they feel like a man what do they feel like? Nobody will answer this.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Is a transgender man the same as a biological man? Are these two people the same?

A biological male is your traditional XY chromosome male. A transmale would be any combination of those chromosomes besides XY (remember there ix XYY, XXY and XXX and maybe others.

EDIT: There are a bunch of others. Besides the standard XX and XY there is X, XXY, XYY, XXX, XXYY, XYYY, and XYYYY.

Wow!

XYY syndrome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SkepticThinker]

I agree. LGBTQ+ people are being oppressed and marginalized.

View attachment 79642

Some sort of source with some information about this photo would be splendid.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Is this a woman?

View attachment 79646

Dude, this isn't Twitter. Try conversing a bit instead of just dropping memes everywhere and taking off.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Except when you haven't heard of something you might just try 2 minutes with your search engine?

Posters are often bringing new concerns or events to the forum. Do you think all the burden of discovery should be placed on them? Can we find a compromise? Something as simple as: "I did an internet search and didn't find anything to support your claim.."

Good grief this is like pulling teeth.

I can't find anything backing up the claims you're making.
Would you be so kind as to share the things you've seen that have led you to believe in the things you do? Pretty please with a cherry on top?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That is not an answer to my question. Here it is again:

I 100% agree that words meaning change. The problem is they still have a meaning. What does it mean to be a woman or man? What characteristics define those terms? Defining a man as simply "I say I am a man" is not a definition of any word ever. When you say you are a man what does that mean? When someone says they feel like a man what do they feel like? Nobody will answer this.

Well, it is a psychological and a learned social process, which depends on both nature and nurture. If that is not enough, we can go through how that happens.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes that would be untrue.

Nope, transgender women feel like and think they are an actual woman. They are not lying. I have never accused them of lying. You have accused me of calling them liars which is untrue.

Ok, Just note you have never defined the characteristics of what a woman or man is. When a transgender woman says they are a woman what are they actually saying about themselves? What characteristics do they think make them a woman?

It is interesting that instead of answering my question above many people, you included, would rather insult me that answer the question.

You want a hard definition for something that does not have a hard definition. The best that we can say is that it is complicated. There have been studies of trans people and they tend to have the brain structures of the opposite sex. In other words is is ore than just feelings. Their brains are female even if their bodies are male or vice versa.

The thing to ask yourself does it harm you to call a biological male "she" if she asks you to? How does that harm you? You should be able to understand that you are harming them if you do not call them by how their own brain tells them that they are.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, I do and I have already said that. I know people with adopted children. The reality is if they asked me if that child was born from the mother I would say no. That is reality. Same with trangender people. I will call them whatever they want but that does not mean I believe they are the gender they say they are.

Who cares if you personally actually believe people are "who they say they are?" As long as you treat people with dignity and respect, that's the main thing.

One could argue you've most likely been doing this your entire life up to this point, whenever you've met any person, anywhere, when they tell you who they are and give you their name. I mean, unless you've been checking the genitals, DNA, chromosomes, etc. of every person you've ever met, which I seriously doubt you've done. That's what gets me about this whole thing. Same goes for the bathroom thing. Just carry on as you did before. What's the big problem?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Who cares if you personally actually believe people are "who they say they are?" As long as you treat people with dignity and respect, that's the main thing.

One could argue you've most likely been doing this your entire life up to this point, whenever you've met any person, anywhere, when they tell you who they are and give you their name. I mean, unless you've been checking the genitals, DNA, chromosomes, etc. of every person you've ever met, which I seriously doubt you've done. That's what gets me about this whole thing. Same goes for the bathroom thing. Just carry on as you did before. What's the big problem?

I should give you fair warning. I always check genitals upon introduction. Luckily I am a very very fast runner!

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thanks for confirming my point. To be a woman all you have to do is say "I'm a woman" and act like one. Nothing else required.
IMO that's a slap in the face to cis-women and transgenders.

I don't feel like I've been slapped in the face. I'm a cis woman.